Nano-Technician Nano Document Discussion Thread

[DecemberSky]

OK just so everyone knows... even though mastas avatar is in the pic... I spent about 8 hours writing up that summary!

Im all about teamwork, but im getting no love! lol! This isn't about an ego boost, but I do want people to realize that I am actually doing a butt-load of work as well as Masta =)

Anyway!

I will add that suggestion to the questions/comments/concerns part of the thread.

Cheers =)

[nanoforcer]

Well the summary is written in his name so...
But good work indeed, cheers!

[Nukedukednw]

I wonder how the Cyberdeck Special "nano burst" works, specifically how the recharge results in this special, what is its value?

[ninst]

1) Does root cooldown trigger on root resist? With 10 sec duration on roots I hope free movements will remove stuns only, not roots.

2) I am little bit disappointed about our MC buff. Since we want high TS to land our dots, getting CM is still going to be a preferred option. I believe we should be able to buff our most important nanoskills ourselves best (do shades have to ask other professions to get best piercing buff? or fixers to get smg? etc.). Quantum Thought should either buff MC *and* TS by 155 or MC only by a significantly higher amount. Or even better it should stack with mochams.

3) NS2 - I dont think it's going to work. With huge nanocost on everything and improved shelters we wont have enough nano to use it. Nanopool cannot serve as nanoprogram spam limiter and our defense at the same time. NS2 should be based on reflects just like NS1. Also why -5k MC on NS1? Why it's always us who get this sort of downsides? Make NS1 reflect 100 % of damage type selected by Change Element nanoline and less % of other damage types. I seriously dont think our offense is that good to deserve -5k MC on NS1 especially if you take nanocosts, nanoskill requirements and CB nerfed to oblivion into account.

4) Superior Nanobot Shelter - if my math is correct this lowers our PVP cap to 16,5 % - one needs 7 hits to kill us. Very nice (low HP ftw?).

5) Health Buff - isn't it enf's job to buff STR/STA? Personally I would prefer to have more INT for some trickle into nanoskills, I dont remember anyone asking for hp/str/sta. It does not fit into our toolset. Also 82 NCU? Seriously? And it does not stack with doc NR buff. Buffs more NR, nice.

6) Evade buff - we lost some points of aao debuff on blind (-499 AAO -> -356), here we are getting few points of defense back (160 -> 250).

7) Blinds - again insane nanocost (3,5k). They should better remove all those silly blind resist items, I cannot afford to spam this. Also blinds ... should blind! If they can give shades something as lame as "Force 6 sec nano recharge on target" black screen should not be a problem at all. I could live with blind gfx effect lasting less time than aao debuff, but it should blind.

8) Absorbs are finally useful again (after being nerfed by everyone's perks doing weapon dmg) but again very high nanocost and 2467 BM/PM :X ... Wish Collapsing Barrier would keep its nanocost (708) but that's quite certainly a bug.

9) Izgimmer's Wealth is our new main source of nano and is badly needed (166 nano/sec). Novictum Reaper is still too slow to make any difference (40 nano/sec), other profs will appreciate its 4h duration. I am pretty sure it's still not enough and we will have by far more problems keeping our nano compared to everyone else.

10) New AOE nukes are cool although staring at 7,5 sec long recharge bar is rather boring. <3 instacast - no more nuking dead bodies.

11) LE dot should have MC/TS instead of MC/PM as an attack rating skills just like other dots.

12) Cyberdeck - i doubt anyone will care about damage coming from regular attacks, our damage template is far too bad and there are no specials on it. Also ranged init is very expensive for us and dodge+aad check means we wont hit anything in pvp.

13) New nukes are ... well there is nothing exiting about them. Again very high nanocost. Good thing is there are no level locks on base nukes except for highest one (imagine lvl 214 NTs with 3k MC). I wish there were more special effects - short root/stun/fear/debuffs etc. But these effects were moved to nano burst making nukes itself rather boring. Hopefully nukes will have plenty of different gfx effects so leveling NTs have something to look forward (since we have no cool new pets or weapons during leveling).

14) Nano bursts are cool idea and I wish there were more independent special actions like this because they are more reliable (always lands when we have high enough MC). Please, replace treat/first aid debuff with heal efficiency debuff.

[nanoforcer]

3) NS2 - I dont think it's going to work. With huge nanocost on everything and improved shelters we wont have enough nano to use it. Nanopool cannot serve as nanoprogram spam limiter and our defense at the same time. NS2 should be based on reflects just like NS1. Also why -5k MC on NS1? Why it's always us who get this sort of downsides? Make NS1 reflect 100 % of damage type selected by Change Element nanoline and less % of other damage types. I seriously dont think our offense is that good to deserve -5k MC on NS1 especially if you take nanocosts, nanoskill requirements and CB nerfed to oblivion into account.

I've been thinking about this as well, using ns1 will cripple you in a way that you can't be offensive but it also does not touch your nanopool, instead it gices a 100% reflect that works great in pvm, in pvp other profs can strip that down, other nt's, engies and traders come to mind, so you can't be offensive but you're likely to survive for the full 15 sec, for sure in pvm.
It's also a great tool in places like s42 where you can take out the seekers by jumping in and using ns
You will die if you do that with ns2 (just as an example)

NS2 on the other hand does let you use your offence at the cost of your nanopool, meaning you *will* take damage after a few hits as your nanopool will likely not be ~50k like before, granted reflects rippers won't do anything to it but you do lose the option of being unkillable for 15 secs, you're basicly nerfing your own defence if you choose to be offensive in this mode, and you're not as good of a tank for the 15 full secs since you're taking damage via nanopool.

Feels like a catch 22 situation, i CAN use offence in ns2, but by doing so i also lower my chance of surviving
And if u use ns1 i "only" get 100% reflect (witch a great deal of that can be stripped of by nt's, traders and engies) and can't attack.
Anyway, enough ranting, we'll see what happens with those defences.

[Racatti]

Come back when non-casters run out of ammo mid fight - and it does not go back for some time

Nano is ammo for NT, and for other profs, ammo just never ends.

Xcept specials have a recharge, and you now have regulars too (without needing ammo even).

[Djiax]

Nano regen breakdown (based on all those new doc we have at disposal) :

From nano :
- Izgi Wealth : 20k heal every 120 sec / flat 166/s
- Novictum Reaper : 588 every 15 sec / flat 39.2/s

From perks (channeling of notum, 170/11sec, not considered worthwhile and not included)
- Notum Siphon : 417 / 5 sec / flat 83.4/s
- Notum Siphon : 8.4K nano over time within 14 sec, recharge 360 sec / flat 23/s
- Essence of Notum : 2.4/4K heal / 60 sec / flat 53.3/s
- if NM : 3K NoT over 20 seconds, every 120 sec / flat 25/s
- if NM : 3Kish heal every 150 sec / 20/s

Might or might not change : nano heal items
- s7 thingy : on a 30K pool, that's 6K over 20 sec, lock 13 min / 7.7/s
- Notum Splice : 1K NoT over 20 sec every 10 minutes / flat 1.6/s
- ... (anything i forget)

Unknowns added regen :
- nanodelta (never understood how it exactly work since we can't verify how much nano it heals in logs like for healdelta)
- Genius (general perk group - rework to come)
- FA stim & battle prepaired kit rework

Passive regen per second sum : Novi Reaper + Notum Siphon = 122.6/s
Action based per second sum : (rest of stuff) = 296/s
Alpha nano heal (using it all when in fight) : 44.6K over 30 seconds from actions + 3660 from passive regen


I have no idea of a vague per second value for the unknown stuff (nano delta, stim etc).
Vague idea of nano prog spam na cost : 1.5/sec (3K/nanoprog with 50% na cost reducer), at which you add the damage mitigated by shelter.

Estimation breakdown : Over 30 seconds of an engagment, if you take around 1K PvP DPS after damage mitigation from layer / evades / CC, you would be losing 13.5K nano from shelter and 45K from nano program spamming, total 58.5K damage to nano for 48K nano heal.

That looks decent ! But we could eventually :

1 : you uncap nanocost so that you can tweak it further in setup
2 : be assured we have the means to refill our pool after a fight (that we either won or ran from) so that our pool buffer matters
3 : you tweak number in details
4 : devil is in details
5 : get the "easy" part (numbers) right, or that's not balancing !
6 : possibly reduce our dmg output at the same time, cause i calced a 34K PvP alpha within 3 seconds at the 15ish second mark into a fight

[Waahash]

They never unsnuck you. It's just a way to do damage to people that are sneaking.

The only thing that unsneaks you is an AoE root i believe.

AoE Stuns and Fears as well.

As for the NT changes - ballin'. Can't wait.

And yes, a nanocaster should have to manage their nanopool, as much as ranged professions (minus the NT itself) have to keep extra ammunition on hand and melee professions have to stay in range to use their weapons/perks - and melee feel it worse when CC'ed, something most nanocasters have on hand.

Also NT's have currently/might still have perks for filling in their nanopool, the wrist item from ToTW if you had gotten it, and the S7 util (which, btw, is percentage based so it's a nice nano heal over time for any-one, most of all with the biggest pools) OR the Smuggler's Den tattoo for a quick shot of 800 nano. Not to mention you might have to stim yourself or use sit down kits/labs - like the rest of us.

[jorricane]

Might or might not change : nano heal items
- Notum Focus : 800 heal every 30 min / flat 0.4/s
- Notum Splice : 1K NoT over 20 sec every 10 minutes / flat 1.6/s
- ... (anything i forget)

The S7 comm relay thing, http://www.xyphos.com/ao/aodb.php?id=288281 , iirc 20% of your nanopool, 4 ticks of 5% over 20 seconds, 13 minute lockout.

[Waahash]

The S7 comm relay thing, http://www.xyphos.com/ao/aodb.php?id=288281 , iirc 20% of your nanopool, 4 ticks of 5% over 20 seconds, 13 minute lockout.

This is used in lieu of the Notum Focus tattoo, since they lock the same skill. The tattoo is an instant burst of 800 nano while the S7 heals nano over time, but the S7 util is far superior in that it locks for less than half the time the tattoo does, buffs your nanoskills, and heals on a percentage scale - NT love.

As for the reflect debuff, hypothetically, if a soldier for instance has his 80% reflects, and decides to go up to a theoretical 115%, it's still capped at 80%. Would the debuff of 35% on the Mk6 Burst debuff the soldier down to 80% or would it bring him down to 45% despite his excess (should he/she choose to go over versus an NT)? I'd like to know if that calculation has been thought of if it has.

[Djiax]

Cheer for that item that i forget, it will help.

I m perfectly fine with managing nanopool, in term of design. It seems to me it gonna be the biggest problematic we'll be dealing with and that's cool. Nanopool becoming as important as our HP. @ 0 nanopool, you might as well be dead.

To work on our nano & regen, we currently use perks, nano program, stim & kit, usable items ; it could help if we could work on it in our equipment tab as well, maybe by uncapping nano cost reducers, and hopefully reworking Spiritual AI armor a bit so that it fits somewhere (maybe with some added nanodmg, or whatever), or imagine a concept where nanodelta is percentage based, so that +nanopool items = more regen at the same time, maybe.

[Djiax]

By the way, what about showing opponent's nanopool along with his HP bar ? i think that would be only fair for our ennemies, and because it seems that nano will matter a lot more in the future, i think it should be a public information.

[RedWatr]

yeah, by unsneaking, I mean that you will die while in sneak unless you unsneak to heal...

btw, I really think these changes scream for NT's to have a separate NCU function window, that shows ncu effects specific to our new new actions.

[Waahash]

Cheer for that item that i forget, it will help.

I m perfectly fine with managing nanopool, in term of design. It seems to me it gonna be the biggest problematic we'll be dealing with and that's cool. Nanopool becoming as important as our HP. @ 0 nanopool, you might as well be dead.

Not unlike someone missing all their perks and their specials on a target = no offensive capability to take said target down and used all their defensive perk options or nano options to stay alive. It's just the NT's way of being vulnerable.

Not that NTs should be vulnerable at all times, but going with DtN is a risk you'd be willing to take to extend your combat attendance even if it meant losing your offensive and simultaneously your defensive capabilities. That is not unlike using an evades perk, it does have a cooldown that you have to wait to use it again, your's is just based on nano-regaining capability.

And before anyone decides to call it out - I do have an NT (not endgamed ATM), so I'm not calling on NTs to get a massive nerf. I'm excited over the changes and the current NT implementation isn't exactly what I'd call "reasonable." They still look to be nasty.

To work on our nano & regen, we currently use perks, nano program, stim & kit, usable items ; it could help if we could work on it in our equipment tab as well, maybe by uncapping nano cost reducers, and hopefully reworking Spiritual AI armor a bit so that it fits somewhere (maybe with some added nanodmg, or whatever), or imagine a concept where nanodelta is percentage based, so that +nanopool items = more regen at the same time, maybe.

Bump to making Spiritual worth at least looting (nanodamage would be fantastic along with maybe nanodelta but not -cost).

[DecemberSky]

always thought Spiritual should have +nano dmg and +Nano Init since observ bots have all inits except that one =\

[Gatester]

Just going to point out on the Nano regen breakdowns, it is doubtful that any NT will be in a full out encounter for a solid 120 seconds against someone. I seriously doubt many fights will last even close to 120s, maybe 60s. Pvm the NT will rarely be the tank in a team and solo an NT can generally mez and run off if needed.

So rather than only trying to figure in NPS regain calculations, perhaps more realistic numbers would be beneficial. Something like, how long would it actually take an NT to run out of nano while using reasonable tools. If the NT always runs out of nano within about 60 seconds, then there is likely an issue there, however if an NT can go full out using all his nanos and nukes and still have a moderate amount of nano in reserve, that could still be too effective.

[RedWatr]

Just going to point out on the Nano regen breakdowns, it is doubtful that any NT will be in a full out encounter for a solid 120 seconds against someone. I seriously doubt many fights will last even close to 120s, maybe 60s. Pvm the NT will rarely be the tank in a team and solo an NT can generally mez and run off if needed.

So rather than only trying to figure in NPS regain calculations, perhaps more realistic numbers would be beneficial. Something like, how long would it actually take an NT to run out of nano while using reasonable tools. If the NT always runs out of nano within about 60 seconds, then there is likely an issue there, however if an NT can go full out using all his nanos and nukes and still have a moderate amount of nano in reserve, that could still be too effective.

it's impossible to tell how long fights will last after rebal. but even now I can tell you that long fights are much more common than you think as an NT. endgame, they're probably faster, but I can have fights last 5, 10, even 30 minutes against certain profs. and you cannot predict how useful our regain tools will be either. all we have to work with atm are the proposed changes to cost. stop assuming that you know how our roll will be, you obviously dont see that we'll have taunts, as well as a potential for tanking.

I usually like your posts, but I think you're out in left field on this one you're seriously trying to judge our need for nano on a 60 second encounter?

gtfo, go experiment with something maybe NT. you're not the Nostradamus of pve, so stop trying to make an argument for us. maybe go tell solds we should base how much ammo they need on how log their AMS lasts.

looovvee uuuu.

[Djiax]

Just going to point out on the Nano regen breakdowns, it is doubtful that any NT will be in a full out encounter for a solid 120 seconds against someone. I seriously doubt many fights will last even close to 120s, maybe 60s. Pvm the NT will rarely be the tank in a team and solo an NT can generally mez and run off if needed.

So rather than only trying to figure in NPS regain calculations, perhaps more realistic numbers would be beneficial. Something like, how long would it actually take an NT to run out of nano while using reasonable tools. If the NT always runs out of nano within about 60 seconds, then there is likely an issue there, however if an NT can go full out using all his nanos and nukes and still have a moderate amount of nano in reserve, that could still be too effective.

I included a 30 second scenario which sounds plausible, during which we could regen 48K nano if we use everything we got, based on the fact we have about 3 NoT that heal over 20 sec and 1 over 14 sec. That sounds very workable, altho a lot of these tool are locked on 2 minutes approx. I considered today's typical fight with a NT lasting around 20/30 sec, except against some rare prof like doc and enf.

If you spare some of these tool to regen 25K ish per engagment, @ 1 engagment per minute, you d be roughly at 0 nano at the end of an engagment (you killed opponent(s) or GTFO).

It is altho very hard to guesstimate what kind of nano drain we ll be dealing with, the only part we can be half sure about is the 48K nano over 30 sec if you wish to spend all your tools. Nanodrain depends on exact nano cast sequences we ll be using and that might be a bit complex to predict right now. Altho, need a check up on tools people gonna use on us to drain our nano, and since i didn't go in depth with other profs doc, i have no clue there.

NS1 could be used to turtle up and regen pool to strike better when it ends, as well.

As far as i m concerned, it sounds like a lot of fun in term of gameplay/design.

In term of balance, test server plx naow ! Personnal feeling, our tool might be a tad bit too powerfull, but on the other end, nano managment might limit this power badly. Hard balance to get right which requires extended testing, before shooting out loud, "OP !".

I m just a bit worried when Kintaii goes and say that tweaking those exact number is "easy" :/ Guess he didn't understand that s with that kind of approach that you end up with a bunch of lovechild prof, and the rest.

[Kintaii]

I m just a bit worried when Kintaii goes and say that tweaking those exact number is "easy" :/ Guess he didn't understand that s with that kind of approach that you end up with a bunch of lovechild prof, and the rest.

Don't be too worried. I'm not saying that reaching *balance* is easy - Being honest, I'm not even making a promise that we'll ever reach that mythical goal; we'll certainly do our utter best and we'll continue to work toward that even after these changes hit live. "Balance", however, is both a subjective and a continually evolving thing; even the "big games" like WoW patch out balance changes every time they update - We'll never be perfect, but we can certainly get closer than we are right now.

What I'm saying is that changing your entire game's *design* is the *really* difficult part, and that's what we're hoping to get from you guys in terms of feedback on this particular round of documentation - Are we headed in the right *direction*? If so (and, judging from the feedback thusfar I'd say we definitely are for NTs) then that's awesome - We can start tweaking the numbers all day long after that (and we definitely will; the testlive period for these changes is going to be *extremely* important to the process [and for things like nanocost in particular]). But if we screw up on the design aspect, on the fundamentals of how the class plays? That's bad. And we end up with what we've had for classes like NTs for the last (nearly) ten years - A badly designed profession that's relied on lame (albeit very powerful and effective) bandaid tools to be viable in any capacity.

Numbers are the products of calculations - Formulas mapped out in Excel and all tweakable, with implementation and change time for updating the game fairly quick. Altering fundamental game design aspects has extremely far-reaching consequences, however, both on your numbers balancing and also your *presentation* of the game/profession - The names, the nanos, the items, the tradeskills, the NPCs that reference them, the overall *feel* of the class.

If we decide that, say, the top shelter costs too much nano to cost, we lower the value, make sure it doesn't conflict too much with their overall nano-per-second drain from average play, and we move on. If we decide that NTs shouldn't have access to layers and want to give them, say, damage shields instead (no this is not happening), then that is a much, *much* larger design consideration; how does that effect their damage otherwise, how does that effect their performance in PvP, how are Advies going to feel getting ripped off, etc. etc.

So yeah. I'm not sayin' that it's easy overall. XD I'm just saying that, from a balance and implementation standpoint, numbers are a lot easier to deal with long-term than design. Just that neither are always easy to get *right*. The feedback we're getting right now lets us know how close we are on both, and with the incoming perk revamp and then the last round of adjustments to the nano documents (and research and itemization to go >.@) I think we're on the right track to getting things where they need to be. Cheers to you guys for all of the help and replies thus far. =)

[Mavritanic]

Nano regen breakdown (based on all those new doc we have at disposal) :
....

Thnx for good calculation, but in real game NT can't use all of this. This is "devils is in details".
Same, if you attacked by any DD prof (solds, shades, engs) your nanopool gone very fast.
Same, don't forget about nano drain items (-5k nanopool), perks, and specials. So, high nanocost will be very big problem