Agent pvm-damage stagnates after tl5 and up

[sultryvoltron]

Talk is cheap...Put up or shut up. Come over to test and run your DD logger. How is saturday/sunday anytime you are available.

You guys talk an awful lot but your snarky remarks don't hold up under the action part. Afterward I will have another cool story to tell bro-hams. This wouldn't be the first time i've made you eat your words.

And then you realize there is more than just auto attacking in this game, and that however much more damage in your theoretical bubble you produce will be trumped by a shades perks, an engi or crats pets, or etc etc.

[Psikie]

But a Crat who was using Remod with unbuffed pets put in next to no effort and got similar DPM numbers...

Willing to bet good money that my 217 Engi can OD any 220 Agent.

I'd be willing to take either of those vs 220 agent. So is sat or sun good for your bet?

Ya. Since procs are also subject to add dmg now... agents have probably gained close to as much as shade or enf in terms of real DPS increases.

The first hit on dots (dead cold, doc ones, waves of whatever, grim reaper are all subject to add dmg as well)

Shock nanos adding BOTH add dmg and retarded high chances to proc... I'd say agents are close to highest number of potential hits per minute as any other prof.

Pretty accurate and why I'm not worried about making public forum challenge, that will probably not get accepted by those that talk and not do.

And then you realize there is more than just auto attacking in this game, and that however much more damage in your theoretical bubble you produce will be trumped by a shades perks, an engi or crats pets, or etc etc.

Shades is new to the scenario along with the pets. It's never been suggested agents can OD shades, but engi/crat without pets no problem- i'd even go so far as to say without 220 pets it wouldn't be that far off to discount agent production in teams dd wise. The truth of the matter is agents don't "need" to have crit setup for pvm and that's what opens up more DD options. So theoretically when would you like to do this test?

[sultryvoltron]

Shades is new to the scenario along with the pets. It's never been suggested agents can OD shades, but engi/crat without pets no problem- i'd even go so far as to say without 220 pets it wouldn't be that far off to discount agent production in teams dd wise. The truth of the matter is agents don't "need" to have crit setup for pvm and that's what opens up more DD options. So theoretically when would you like to do this test?

I bet you'd also like to post the results of an NT auto attacking with cyber deck vs an Agent too then right?

I don't understand why you are going to exclude major portions of DD professions toolsets and then claim that your results are meaningful.

[Psikie]

I bet you'd also like to post the results of an NT auto attacking with cyber deck vs an Agent too then right?

I don't understand why you are going to exclude major portions of DD professions toolsets and then claim that your results are meaningful.

Look dude you said "your" 217 engi could OD a 220 agent and followed up talking about a remod crat with unbuffed pets. You gonna bark all day lil doggie or you gonna bite? You can meet me on test server or shut it down, you are all talk and no act. I already know what the results will be, so either get embarrassed for talking out the side of your neck or stop trolling. It's a waste of time to keep doing this forum banter when we can settle it on test server so once again put up or shut up, sat or sun good for you?

You can rightfully bow out now by not reposting, but if you have anything else left to say do it on test server this weekend or tuck your tail.

[Manicmouse]

C'mon someone with an active account take up the challenge, I want results to read while "working"

Let's settle this agent damage thing once and for all!

[Belph]

Can't wait to read those results... That'll at least let you agents think you can dd! Then you'll realise, in reality, engis/crats will use buffed pets and shades will hit their perks and carry on grovelling

[Ciex]

This topic reminds me one of those crypto - whine thread made by Gatester that enfs dont do enough dmg to be on pair with solds or whatever it was all about. While dmg is nice to have it doesnt make any difference when it comet to in game content. I have, among others, 220 shade, engi and nt and can spend whole days on lft for any content and dont get a single invite other than asking to roll inf mission. If you dont play one of pvm lovechilds you must count on your social skills, not profession abilities anyway The main problem i see with agents is CHs taunt inside SL. Ask FC to remove it and youll be a nice support healer.

[sultryvoltron]

Look dude you said "your" 217 engi could OD a 220 agent and followed up talking about a remod crat with unbuffed pets. You gonna bark all day lil doggie or you gonna bite? You can meet me on test server or shut it down, you are all talk and no act. I already know what the results will be, so either get embarrassed for talking out the side of your neck or stop trolling. It's a waste of time to keep doing this forum banter when we can settle it on test server so once again put up or shut up, sat or sun good for you?

You can rightfully bow out now by not reposting, but if you have anything else left to say do it on test server this weekend or tuck your tail.

Again, how is it meaningful to only use auto attacks, which is 90% of an Agent's damage over time, and completely ignore the majority of other professions toolsets?

It's not worth reactivating my sub over a test that won't prove anything other than Agents have decent auto attacks. Hell, I bet if you pit your test server agent against a geared and buffed MA you'd get destroyed in your "autos only" challenge.

But again, it doesn't mean anything.

Edit: You want a real DD test, find any Engi and let them play their profession, find one of your amazingly epic uber 220 Agent friends and let them try to keep up, go to LOTV, kill it, post results. Srompu already did and got OD'd by a Doc. You think your results will be different when you pit an Agent versus a real DD profession?

[Psikie]

It's not worth reactivating my sub over a test that won't prove anything other than Agents have decent auto attacks.

Tail tucked and still barking from the porch like the other lil doggies. ha

[Gatester]

Don't bother anymore Sultry.

[Psikie]

You could take up the challenge also Gate. I'll even offer to help "the testing" you were going to do by playing the part of the agent. With 2 people it should make the testing go twice as fast.

But what I won't do is sit by while people who ramble on the forums and talk mad trash about how they know everything there is to know about AO and couldn't possibly be wrong about anything. If someone disagrees with them they want to flame and try to cut down them down, but then won't put their misguided posts to the test. The empitome of a forums bully.

You can agree to disagree but when those posts turn all snarky and holier than thou it crosses a line of civility I can't tolerate. So let your actions speak louder than words and prove your posts on test server or quit yer yappin. I'm willing to do just that, anyone else ready to step up? If not please sit down.

[srompu]

Look the point i'm stating is still the same. Agents are mid range DD for a support prof. The attraction of agents in a team for me is their versatility. Sure you can find a better DD spot or a better healer spot. But I have only played with 4 agents regularly and all 4 where perhaps exceptional PLAYERS. I would take a good player regardless of prof over an avg player with a "preferred" profession. Depending on the raid/instance you could probably take 5 sol with 1 doc or 5 shade with 1 advy and still be just fine if everyone knows how to juggle aggro. That's not the point. I am disputing the theory that agents are worthless in a team scenario. Yes a lot of AO encounters can be defeated simply by applying more DD, the means to an end. That's fantastic I don't begrudge that style of play. I also don't discriminate profs. I can find a use for any class in a team, and that's what I find challenging and fun.

For what it's worth, I don't disagree with this point. Agents aren't worthless in a team, and they do have some happy funtime tricks like snare perks which make certain encounters easier.

Wow, is this what the game is like nowadays?
As an old-timer, it feels like the game has become seriously unfriendly.

I play Agent, and I'm saying how I see it. Most PvM encounters, I get asked to log something useful.

A player that agrees/allows agents to increase PVM damage will consciously (or unconsciously) know PVP viability will improve as a result. If that player does not currently play an agent, then eventually, given a cause, will react with a competitive spirit on protecting their relative class standings.

Give Agents a rifle they can't cap AS cycle on, requires massive rangedinit or aggdef, has 10s equip time, crits like a god, and has a huge DD proc when not in FP.

You can agree to disagree but when those posts turn all snarky and holier than thou it crosses a line of civility I can't tolerate. So let your actions speak louder than words and prove your posts on test server or quit yer yappin. I'm willing to do just that, anyone else ready to step up? If not please sit down.

The remod crat came up because we had it on q when we were killing LotV. Why don't you damage-dump your test server Agent and your test server Engi and post the results and equip you used? It might be interesting data.

[sultryvoltron]

You could take up the challenge also Gate. I'll even offer to help "the testing" you were going to do by playing the part of the agent. With 2 people it should make the testing go twice as fast.

But what I won't do is sit by while people who ramble on the forums and talk mad trash about how they know everything there is to know about AO and couldn't possibly be wrong about anything. If someone disagrees with them they want to flame and try to cut down them down, but then won't put their misguided posts to the test. The empitome of a forums bully.

You can agree to disagree but when those posts turn all snarky and holier than thou it crosses a line of civility I can't tolerate. So let your actions speak louder than words and prove your posts on test server or quit yer yappin. I'm willing to do just that, anyone else ready to step up? If not please sit down.

Without me having to resub, the last thing I did on my 217 Engi was a Beast Raid. I still have the DD log and can post it to be dumped. I was tryharding.

Perhaps you should take a test server Agent through a Beast raid and post results. You should tryhard. Then we would have numbers we can compare.

But I flat out refuse to join in a test where you are placing arbitrary limits on professions, such as "use auto attack only", in an attempt to present Agent DD through a frame that is disjointed from reality. It's stupid and it's pointless.

[Psikie]

The remod crat came up because we had it on q when we were killing LotV. Why don't you damage-dump your test server Agent and your test server Engi and post the results and equip you used? It might be interesting data.

Engi with 220 pets would win, by how much I can test tonight. Without 220 pets I think agent would win.

But I flat out refuse to join in a test where you are placing arbitrary limits on professions, such as "use auto attack only", in an attempt to present Agent DD through a frame that is disjointed from reality. It's stupid and it's pointless.

The only limits I placed was equipment you can get from Auto...thats stuff any and everyone can obtain immediately for testing purposes. It gives a level play field to test actual numbers that don't include special/prof specific gear (except ofab). So you can actually see raw data DD wise. Using just that gear is a good benchmark to how any endgame toon of a specific proffession SHOULD be able to perform.

At no time did I ever say use auto attack only. I would expect perks, nanos, and weapon specials to be used. Agents get nice DD bonuses on all those anyway.

However what is stupid and pointless is continuing to debate with you when you don't even play AO currently. So you probably have no idea how big of a deal the +dd patch was for agents.

[Obtena]

I don't really think playing or not playing changes alot of the information presented here. It's really not relevant WHO presents it. I don't really get this trend with players putting their heads in the sand and ignoring the collective gaming experience when it comes to these discussions. We had a big one for enfos, now the same thing is happening here for agents. Is it some kind of 'practice run' when re-balance comes and everyone rushes to grab the devs attention for their own personal gains? It's not necessary. Agent's need alot of work.

I don't really think there is any value in an argument about some prof vs agent doing more damage. Fact is people don't really like agent's for teaming. Part of that is junk damage. part of that is crippled FP toolset. The last part of that is the core agent toolset being trash. What is all this competition to try to show everything is great with all these deficient aspects of the game? Not cool. +dd on perks was a boon for agents? Great ... does it get you teamed? Please, don't embarrass yourself with an answer.

[Psikie]

I don't really get this trend with players putting their heads in the sand and ignoring the collective gaming experience when it comes to these discussions. We had a big one for enfos, now the same thing is happening here for agents. I don't really think there is any value in an argument about some prof vs agent doing more damage. Fact is people don't really like agent's for teaming.

You know I've always respected your opinion and I think 99% of any posts i've seen of yours I have thought were pretty good and accurate even if I didn't agree with them. Yes this is probably a pointless debate. Yes people don't generally ever "look" for agents for any team above tl6.

However in a strictly numbers perspective, end game encounters have not changed much in last 2-3 years. Agents today do more DD than most toons from back then simply from the +dd patch of what... 6months ago. So granted all toons do more DD, but to say agents are worthless in teams when a year ago the same easy end game stuff was being done by lesser DD toons is falacy.

The problem is the "collective gaming experience" on these forums is usually from a group of players that are pretty closed minded about things they have never experienced or seen.

[sultryvoltron]

However in a strictly numbers perspective, end game encounters have not changed much in last 2-3 years. Agents today do more DD than most toons from back then simply from the +dd patch of what... 6months ago. So granted all toons do more DD, but to say agents are worthless in teams when a year ago the same easy end game stuff was being done by lesser DD toons is falacy.

"Every profession does more damage. Therefore Agents do enough damage."

The conclusion is not a necessary condition of the premise. This is ACTUALLY a fallacy.

Meanwhile a correct logical statement:

"Doctors do more damage AND have more healing than Agents. Agents do not do enough damage." The implied premise here is that Doctors should heal better than Agents.

Another correct logical statement:

"Bureaucrats do more damage AND provide better team utility than Agents under every circumstance. Agents do not provide enough damage or utility to a team under any circumstance." Again, an implied premise that the sum worth of all professions should be roughly equal.

[Psikie]

"Every profession does more damage. Therefore Agents do enough damage."

Dude seriously, talk to yourself. You have nothing more to say, you've been challenged to back up your words and you can't or won't, so just stop.

If you could do an encounter in '10-'11 with 4 or 5 man team adding an Agent in '12-'13 is not going to hurt a team with the DD agents do now a days with the bonuses they CURRENTLY recieve.

[Obtena]

However in a strictly numbers perspective, end game encounters have not changed much in last 2-3 years. Agents today do more DD than most toons from back then simply from the +dd patch of what... 6months ago. So granted all toons do more DD, but to say agents are worthless in teams when a year ago the same easy end game stuff was being done by lesser DD toons is falacy.

The problem is the "collective gaming experience" on these forums is usually from a group of players that are pretty closed minded about things they have never experienced or seen.

While I agree that most content is easier due to some game changes that have taken place, I think it's unfair to say that agents are in a better place because of it. I interpret what you are saying is that the content is so easy now that you can carry people easier in teams. That's partly true, but I don't think that's a reassuring statement to professions that are typically carried. No one wants to be carried. No one should want a game situation like that.

When I speak of the collective gaming experience, I'm not really referring to the posts people are making here. I'm talking about the unspoken times in0game when agents are continually refused for teams, people talking in OOC about agents, the lack of agents in PUG groups, etc ...

[Lazy]

just poppoed on test to see what kind of damage crats do against the high AC training dummy. got the following results


autoattack only, with pets

Statistic for Sarariman2

(Dmg, # Hits, - Min, + Max, ø Avg)

= = = *Damage caused *= = =

Total: 459,942, # 346, 175,484 dpam, 172,477 dpm

Normal: 140,529, # 93, 30.55%
Critical: 29,715, # 12, 6.46%, Crit-Chance: 11.43%
Nanobots: 24,070, # 10, 5.23%
Pets: 265,628, # 231, 57.75%

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Weapon:
- Projectile: 140,529, # 93, - 1,505, + 1,517, ø 1,511


Critical:
- Projectile: 29,715, # 12, - 2,470, + 2,485, ø 2,476

Nanobots:
- Energy: 24,070, # 10, - 1,857, + 4,607, ø 2,407

Pets:
- CEO Guardian: 73,718, # 104
- Carlo Pinnetti: 191,910, # 127

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

No missed hits.

= = = *Damage taken *= = =

No damage taken.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

No hits avoided.

pushing dd, no pets

Statistic for Sarariman2

(Dmg, # Hits, - Min, + Max, ø Avg)

= = = *Damage caused *= = =

Total: 821,288, # 357, 169,337 dpam, 167,041 dpm

Normal: 238,714, # 158, 29.07%
Critical: 42,125, # 17, 5.13%, Crit-Chance: 9.71%
Special: 194,046, # 75, 23.63%
Nanobots: 346,403, # 107, 42.18%

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Weapon:
- Projectile: 238,714, # 158, - 1,505, + 1,517, ø 1,510
- Fling Shot: 74,203, # 47, - 1,517, + 2,485, ø 1,578
- Burst: 119,843, # 28, - 3,034, + 4,551, ø 4,280


Critical:
- Projectile: 42,125, # 17, - 2,470, + 2,485, ø 2,477


Nanobots:
- Projectile: 93,025, # 29, - 2,195, + 6,194, ø 3,207
- Energy: 232,674, # 62, - 1,857, + 7,727, ø 3,752
- Radiation: 20,704, # 16, - 1,294, + 1,294, ø 1,294

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


No missed hits.

= = = *Damage taken *= = =


No damage taken.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

No hits avoided.

pushing DD with pets

Statistic for Sarariman2

(Dmg, # Hits, - Min, + Max, ø Avg)

= = = *Damage caused *= = =

Total: 1,460,517, # 784, 300,684 dpam, 297,053 dpm

Normal: 238,714, # 158, 16.34%
Critical: 42,125, # 17, 2.88%, Crit-Chance: 9.71%
Special: 194,046, # 75, 13.29%
Nanobots: 346,403, # 107, 23.72%
Pets: 639,229, # 427, 43.77%

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Weapon:
- Projectile: 238,714, # 158, - 1,505, + 1,517, ø 1,510
- Fling Shot: 74,203, # 47, - 1,517, + 2,485, ø 1,578
- Burst: 119,843, # 28, - 3,034, + 4,551, ø 4,280


Critical:
- Projectile: 42,125, # 17, - 2,470, + 2,485, ø 2,477

Nanobots:
- Projectile: 93,025, # 29, - 2,195, + 6,194, ø 3,207
- Energy: 232,674, # 62, - 1,857, + 7,727, ø 3,752
- Radiation: 20,704, # 16, - 1,294, + 1,294, ø 1,294


Pets:
- Carlo Pinnetti: 350,812, # 228
- CEO Guardian: 288,417, # 199

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

No missed hits.

= = = *Damage taken *= = =

No damage taken.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

No hits avoided.

summary of data:

afk dd: 175k dpm
pushing dd with no pets: 169k dpm
pushing dd with pets: 300kdpm

compared to stomp's numbers (since psikie likes to talk a lot but hasn't actually posted any concrete numbers)

Player (Damage/Damage per Minute/Hits/Crits/Crit%/highest hit)
2. Srompu ( 849.763 / 152.640 / 137 / 51 / 37% / 9.140 )

curious to see how psikie's agent's uber dd compares to that, but i'm willing to bet it's nothing to write home about. a crat pushing DD with pets, as far as i can tell is anywhere between 2 and 3 agents worth of damage.

If you could do an encounter in '10-'11 with 4 or 5 man team adding an Agent in '12-'13 is not going to hurt a team with the DD agents do now a days with the bonuses they CURRENTLY recieve.

it does hurt. the agent takes up a spot in the roll without carrying their weight.