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Thread: Farmers, and farming.

  1. #61

    Funcom employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Painolympics View Post
    I have 220 enfo, and yet still there's not much to farm to make credits.
    I found this to be a very interesting sentence.

    Some open questions: do you find it fun to farm and/or do you consider the availability of farmable content to be a key draw to AO? If so, how does this fit in with a later sentence from your post: the only allure to AO is a simple system of amazing potential? If not, do you find yourself farming (and looking for easier ways to farm) despite this due to an overall pricing problem stemming from a more generic issue like inflation? Or, out of all the hypothetical ways to obtain in-game currency in an MMO, do you merely consider farming to be either the most compelling (or perhaps the least annoying)? Is farming in an MMO a necessary evil, because all gameplay when you get down to it is well-disguised grind, or is there some intrinsic definable concept of "playing a game" which is substantively and quantifiably different from "farming a game"? Generally speaking, how do you prefer to obtain in-game MMO currency (without getting to any specific designs of specific games)?

  2. #62
    S10-
    Daily cru mission in NLC should have been 100% cru, s10 cru should have been 25% nodrops, bounties should have been like doja chips 1 per day. Problem solved.

    Back in the day people used to make low lvl alts to farm concrete cushions (lvl 10) and farm PPE's (lvl 60) to fund their high lvl toons, so its nothing new for low lvl toons to fund higher lvl alts. Thats supply and demand.

    Farming in general-
    Ely quests (t1 parts) Sheol questline (prof nanos) Ado brain (prof symb) Pen questline (prof nano/weapon for keeper) are the right kind of ideas. I like how they give you pieces of equip you can use and lvl with. You still have option of going to other avenues for equiping your toon but you could get a nice starter set through the quests. Tier armor is not bad for leveling purposes. People would still use it if there were no ai/ofab. I would propose adding more items like that to quest lines in the future to help players along. Throw in some sancroset/inamorata weapons or turn spirit rewards maybe? Maybe a few symbiants (make them nodrop from quest) so that they didnt not upset market value of pb symbs. They are not the top of food chain or over powered but provide a nice lvl based reward.
    ~Anyone can level, but only the wise gain experience~

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  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Painolympics View Post
    Like mentioned the gap in having a good character and one with some kind of 300 ai armor is way to massive, CC/CSS costs are beyond stupid, some people don't even have the alts/means to carry that much money.
    Hey, that'd be me!

    Just started my first paid account a few months ago, worked hard on my lil' toon, even have some money now to buy some stuff I need/want/alts, aside ofc... AI armor, 'tis a random myth for those without two+, decade old accounts full of billions...

    The gap between the new and vets should be knowledge/talent not: "Laff, why you wearing Tier! lolz you nub!"
    I make it look easy, 'cause it is to me.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilaliya View Post
    Is farming in an MMO a necessary evil, because all gameplay when you get down to it is well-disguised grind, or is there some intrinsic definable concept of "playing a game" which is substantively and quantifiably different from "farming a game"? Generally speaking, how do you prefer to obtain in-game MMO currency (without getting to any specific designs of specific games)?
    Farming has a really negative connotation behind it. It is generally associated with you doing something over and over again (could be camping a mob or repeating the same content over and over as well) for the sole purpose of either getting a specific item or getting credits. The main thing, in AO, being that you have stopped progressing (leveling) your character in order to make income when you farm for money.

    In other games I've played, there are systems where money and gear is merely a by-product of playing the game. What I mean by 'playing the game':
    - Doing quests that have gear and money rewards
    - Running level appropriate instances. Please put an emphasis on 'level appropriate' because in AO quite often instances/dungeons cannot be completed with a team of people that are level appropriate for either when they are directed there (think of the Inner Sanctum elite daily) or for the loot reward (think of the Alappa shoulderpad and prof specific nano). Neither of the examples I just gave are level-appropriate content. Dark Ruins, however, is.
    - Killing level appropriate mobs, solo or in team, that have some chance of dropping green/blue (yes i just went to the WoW/AoC system) items that can be equipped and used as leveling gear.

    AO lacks what I've described as monetary reward for playing the game. As a result, players have to farm.. not because they want to get extra special items (I think that's ok) but just to get stuff that will allow them to continue leveling. That is where the issue comes in with this game, imo. There's no chance of getting mediocre (green quality level) items from trash mob drops on either RK or SL really. Weapons that are pretty much standard requirements for toons (like the JEPP for a pistol soldier) require camping by a higher level main to obtain because the level at which you equip it is a level that you can't OD the 220 that's camping the dryad. As a result, without a higher level main you swap from camping the item to farming creds 'somehow' to be able to buy from another guy farming creds via camping the item you need.

    Add into that equation the 'farming' (bad term but feels the same) you have to do when you get past shop buyable nanos (which is pretty early in the game). At that point, now you're rolling RK missions using a 3rd party tool to try to get BASIC nanos (spells in other games). This is another grind that's added on to the other grinds we already have. And then you've got the whole implant and implant cluster process that again is just an unnecessary grind when someone is just trying to create really BASIC gear to wear and level up in.

    AO being as it is in one aspect or the other isn't a big deal.. but when you combine all that you have to do just to have a mediocre toon (not a twink.. just an average toon) then it is too much for most people to endure and have fun. AO starts to feel like a job.. and one with really poor pay as all of the work you do will only create a MEDIOCRE toon.. that's not counting the additional time/effort/blood/sweat/tears you have to do on top of that to make an actual TWINK.
    Last edited by Traderjill; Mar 29th, 2012 at 21:41:55.
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  5. #65
    Credits should be secondary in an MMO.

    I'm currently playing SWTOR, you can get from 1-50 (with all the endgame equips) without spending a single credit besides buying skills.

    I mentioned before, AO fails to reward a player for it's time. In here you have to grind all the way til the end, starting from hiatlins in nascence to inferno mission, passing by farming alien bots or credit to get the best of the best equipment.

    AO needs to change this, this grind method doesn't work anymore, a player needs to be rewarded for his time spent.

    If you ask me, AI armor should be NODROP with a higher droprate and it should drop from AI Sector Bosses. on QL 240+ and below that on city raids and STILL NODROP. Why should i try and gather people to run AI city raids? So i have to roll on a loot? I can solo the damn thing.

    AO works reversed for the current games. In here you gotta pay to have the best, on the other games you pay to have the mediocre, while the best come from raids, instances, quests and team content.


    Supporting this arcaic method will just make our population reduce even more until we just won't have AO to play anymore.

    One of the most complaints about this game is the absolute need of credits, and if you dont have it you wont have the best equipment.


    And another thing.... Dual Log.... don't even get me started on this
    Last edited by Anarrina; Mar 30th, 2012 at 02:05:38.

  6. #66
    The real issue here, is that FC thinks that by making the game all new and shiny on dx9 will save it....

    This game is dieing, and some people just won't admit it, i was even told by a certain FC employee once that THE GAME POPULATION WAS FINE!

    I shall not name names, don't want this forum account banned after all

    But FC needs just to admit it, this game needs MUCH more than just shinies.


    One simnple exemple of how this game population is mediocre, you can actually sell loot from instanced content to another people, you can raid with a character and loot with another. Only i think this is complete bull?
    The simple fact that FC looks this ISSUE - (yes this is an issue, it's not a common practice, it's plain bull) - proves that this game needs some serious help regarding it's population and managing and creating content. While every single new game out there WALKS to a direction, FC chooses to RUN the absolute opposite way.
    Last edited by Anarrina; Mar 30th, 2012 at 02:06:34.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilaliya View Post
    Some open questions: do you find it fun to farm
    No
    and/or do you consider the availability of farmable content to be a key draw to AO?
    No
    If not, do you find yourself farming (and looking for easier ways to farm) despite this due to an overall pricing problem stemming from a more generic issue like inflation? Or, out of all the hypothetical ways to obtain in-game currency in an MMO, do you merely consider farming to be either the most compelling (or perhaps the least annoying)?
    The former
    Is farming in an MMO a necessary evil
    No, it's an unnecessary evil
    Generally speaking, how do you prefer to obtain in-game MMO currency (without getting to any specific designs of specific games)?
    Preferably while doing other things that are more interesting, like quests or raids or whatever.
    I am wiser than any god or scientist, for I have squared the circle and cubed Earth's sphere, thus I have created 4 simultaneous separate 24 hour days within a 4-corner (as in a 4-corner classroom) rotation of Earth. See for yourself the absolute proof.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by traderjill View Post
    /snip
    Well said. FC would be wise to pay attention to that post imo.
    Last edited by Aiken; Mar 29th, 2012 at 22:36:09.
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  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Traderjill View Post
    Farming has a really negative connotation behind it. It is generally...

    Well said Jill, you hit the nail square on the head. Hopefully FC is paying attention

  10. #70

    Funcom employee

    Quote Originally Posted by Traderjill View Post
    Farming has a really negative connotation behind it. It is generally associated with you doing something over and over again (could be camping a mob or repeating the same content over and over as well) for the sole purpose of either getting a specific item or getting credits. The main thing, in AO, being that you have stopped progressing (leveling) your character in order to make income when you farm for money.

    In other games I've played, there are systems where money and gear is merely a by-product of playing the game. What I mean by 'playing the game':
    - Doing quests that have gear and money rewards
    - Running level appropriate instances. Please put an emphasis on 'level appropriate' because in AO quite often instances/dungeons cannot be completed with a team of people that are level appropriate for either when they are directed there (think of the Inner Sanctum elite daily) or for the loot reward (think of the Alappa shoulderpad and prof specific nano).
    - Killing level appropriate mobs, solo or in team, that have some chance of dropping green/blue (yes i just went to the WoW/AoC system) items that can be equipped and used as leveling gear.
    Going to dive into some design philosophy here so bear with me.

    What I was getting at in the previous post was whether there was a quantifiable and substantive difference between grinding/farming, and playing the game. So lets get some definitions. I'll accept your definition of "playing the game," and lets define grinding/farming as "doing the same thing over and over."

    Is there a quantifiable and substantive difference between a player performing the activities you listed, and a player doing the same thing over and over? My answer would be the following: in single player RPGs: yes; in MMOs: depends, but mostly no. Let me explain that.

    Consider that the expectation of an MMO is that it's playable for near-infinite hours. However, the game itself is a finite thing. I mean, it has a finite executable size and takes up a certain amount of GB on your harddrive. This means, at some point no matter what game you are playing, you will find yourself doing the same thing over and over. This can be thought of as the specific point where you've done it all and seen it all so many times that your mind's natural pattern recognition has overcome the illusion of replayability. Given enough time humans will hit this point even in a game as complex as chess -- which is why pretty much every sensible configuration of openings has been defined, named, and had its optimal strategy worked out for so many moves. And patterns emerge. The human mind is very, very good at matching patterns and for the most part we are still better at this than machines (this is exactly why captchas work) .

    Given your examples, this concept would manifest as grinding quests, grinding dungeons, and so forth. Grinding the otherwise fun activities on your list. Note the difference here between a single player RPG and an MMO. In a single player RPG, in order to be fun, there merely has to be enough stuff to do so that the player doesn't feel like he's doing the same thing over and over before the game ends. So in a well built single player RPG, there is a difference (the 'yes' answer up above). In an MMO, because it has this concept of infinite replayability, given enough time everything becomes a grind.

    Based on this, I propose a narrow definition of 'fun.' Fun is the space below the saturation point of familiarity with the game's programmatic behavior. Given infinite time, playing the same game (any game!) becomes less fun, because no matter how many different ways there are to play the same feature, a game-world and game rules are ultimately a finite thing. Even in a sandbox game, at some point and given enough play-throughs, it will start to feel very same-y. The human mind has already identified all the useful patterns. In player terms, this is "figuring everything out" which is typically when games become boring.

    So why did I say "mostly no" and not just "no" when it came to MMOs? Well, MMOs have ongoing content. It's still a mostly no because players will always consume content faster than developers can create content, but the fact remains that MMOs are technically non-finite entities (even if they are functionally finite) because theoretically you could patch new game mechanics and new features all the time. But again, very few MMOs have the manpower to do this (two good examples are EVE and WoW). And even still, players consume it faster. So MMOs with a steady stream of ongoing content can't get off on this technicality! They are functionally still bound by the same rules, and the only difference is how long it takes to reach the singularity.

    So my conclusion based on the above is that there is no quantifiable difference between a grind and playing the game. However! -- there is a subjective difference -- which is that one is fun and one isn't. And this is quite obvious, because there are plenty of games that start out perfectly fun and mid-way through it get extremely tedious. How many times have you been playing an otherwise fun game, and then at some point caught yourself thinking... "geez, not another X." And then turn off the game, and go do something else. In better games you find yourself thinking "awesome, another X!"

    So in other words, a game can be thought of as a grind (performing the same basic actions over and over) made fun. And I also happen to think this is what game design is.

    Now, let me introduce a paradox:

    Quote Originally Posted by Traderjill View Post
    AO lacks what I've described as monetary reward for playing the game. As a result, players have to farm.. not because they want to get extra special items (I think that's ok) but just to get stuff that will allow them to continue leveling.
    I agree where you are going, but one can also flip this around. If progression (levelling) in an RPG is defined as obtaining the necessary in-game enchancements to one's character in order to proceed to the desired content then clearly farming is part of levelling. It's just not represented as a bar in the GUI. To illustrate this, imagine a hypothetical MMO with no XP, and no XP bar, and no levels... where the progression is simply getting better items in order to kill harder mobs in order to get better items. This game does exist, it's exactly what you see in level-capped characters on themepark MMOs, often known as "raiding." It's rote, repetitive behaviour.

    The paradox is this: if farming is subjectively the opposite of fun, then why are the most fun features in an MMO (aka, end-game content) also the most grindy? And it gets more bizzare when you consider that players tend take the path of least resistance to this end-game which inevitably involves finding the narrow piece of content with the slightly-most-optimal-time-to-xp-ratio and playing it over and over. Players grind, in order to obtain the reward of getting to the most grindy part of the game.

    So herein lies a very interesting problem. Players don't want to grind in an MMO, but they inevitably seek it out (aka the race to endgame!). Designers don't want to implement a grind, but it's necessarily the only tool they have because games live in a finite space.

    Based on all of the above, I submit to you that the goal is not to remove the grind, but to make it fun. A thing entirely dependent on the perspective and psychology of the player. And this is where I get around to agreeing with you. Here's how:

    To get back to the quote, "AO lacks what I've described as monetary reward for playing the game". Because in AO, the monetary reward is necessary for "stuff that will allow them to continue levelling", as you say. Now, consider the part of this post a few paragraphs up that leads with "My conclusion..." So, when we do a bit of logical reduction what we are basically left with is that we need to make levelling more fun. If you accept the very narrow definition of fun that I proposed for purposes of this post, two solutions are revealed:

    1. Add more methods of gaining xp so that the saturation point is pushed higher.
    2. Decrease time-to-level so that players do not reach the aforementioned saturation point


    Solution #1 sounds like the winner. But we have a bit of a problem, no? According to the paradox I described above, adding more methods of xp gain will not increase the saturation point because players will still end up performing the one activity that is slightly more efficient. #2 is kind of dangerous as well, because taken to the logical conclusion we have talked ourselves into another problem which I have discussed in my previous philosophical wall of text post that I won't rehash here.

    So it sounds kind of like I've argued us into a corner, where MMOs inherently aren't fun and anything you try to do to make it fun just makes it worse. But there is a way out of this mess! To do so we have to get into intrinsic goals vs extrinsic goals, which I'm going to touch on briefly. Games with extrinsic goals are the ones where the game defines the purpose that you are playing. Unlock all the achievements. Slay the Dragon. Rescue the Princess. Solve the mystery. Get the High Score. And so forth. Games with intrinsic goals are the ones where the player defines his own purpose, and these are typically in the sandbox category (although not necessarily).

    The reason that solution #1 doesn't work is because players find the path of least resistance to end-game, and then at end-game they find the path of least-resistance to however the game defines success afterwards. Humans (and especially gamers) are achievers. The issue at play is that the game defines what player success means (and it's typically a single definition). That it has a single extrinsic goal, which in RPG terms is maxxing out your character. Quick show of hands here -- who has quit a single player RPG you really, really enjoyed not because you beat the game but because you hit the level cap? I certainly have.

    In an MMORPG, the same thing is necessarily occurring in a competitive environment. Quick tangent: this reveals to us the secret of AO's longevity -- because maxxing out your character is an extremely involved process, and in fact players kind of get to define how they want to max out their character, on their own terms. So there are certainly intrinsic goals at play here.

    So if we want to improve the AO levelling experience, and going all the way back to your list at the top, not only is about creating the balance between time and things-to-do at each progression way-point (levels), but it's also about allowing intrinsic goals which are more compelling than the extrinsic goal of reaching 220 (and 70, and 30). If you are reading this, and a lightbulb just went off, let me guess what you are thinking. We have such an intrinsic goal in AO, and it's called twinking!

    So, the logical outcome is quite clear. The "philosophically pure" way to improve the levelling experience is two-fold: increase the levelling speed for players who are chasing the extrinsic goal of vertical progression, and provide content (things to do) for players who are chasing the intrinsic goal of twinking their character at whatever level they decide.

    But that's not enough! The danger here is that extrinsic goals tend to override and invalidate intrinsic goals (you can look at minecraft's Nether Gate and how it impacted player psychology as an example). So, we also have to provide the mechanical framework in which both twinking and levelling can co-exist, without one stepping on the other's toes. Basically what this implies is that a twinked character that has intentionally stopped at some designated level needs to have a meaningful role within the game-world which can't itself simply be to grind something.

    Okay, this has gotten pretty long and I'm going stop here.
    Last edited by Ilaliya; Mar 29th, 2012 at 23:42:15.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Rigister View Post
    Credits should be secondary in an MMO.

    AO works reversed for the current games. In here you gotta pay to have the best, on the other games you pay to have the mediocre, while the best come from raids, instances, quests and team content.
    This is what I'm striking at. Some people like to farm, that's cool. But reward the average player for their time and effort and throw them a few bones of equipment to lvl with by lvl based content rewards.

    Rewarding more credits just promotes higher prices as more credits are available in game. Which put things more out of reach for new players who will ALWAYS be behind in the credit race.
    ~Anyone can level, but only the wise gain experience~

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  12. #72
    HOLY COW what a post from Ilaliya~

    I can see the horizon lit up from all the light bulbs that JUST turned on!!! lol
    ~Anyone can level, but only the wise gain experience~

    *Bronto Burger, serving 10,000 high level noobs daily*

    http://wolf-brigade.webs.com/

    My Story

    Don't feed the Mensa Tralalalala

    Everyday I'm Shuffling.

  13. #73
    Unfortunately, with all that text, Ilaliya missed one very fundamental thing: people don't play the same MMO forever, which means the "game life is infinite BUT game content is finite THEREFORE grind must exist" claim falls apart.

    Also, this
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilaliya View Post
    Quick show of hands here -- who has quit a single player RPG you really, really enjoyed not because you beat the game but because you hit the level cap? I certainly have.
    is not something that fills me with confidence.
    I am wiser than any god or scientist, for I have squared the circle and cubed Earth's sphere, thus I have created 4 simultaneous separate 24 hour days within a 4-corner (as in a 4-corner classroom) rotation of Earth. See for yourself the absolute proof.

  14. #74
    In all fairness, all MMOs require some grinding, even quest based games such as WoW and AoC. Two things make AO's style of grinding particularly frustrating:

    1) The lack of reward for doing the content other than XP. Other games offer the chance of green/blue/purple drops, gold, and XP. AO offers only XP. Given this, there is no point to doing any content other than the stuff that offers the maximum return on time invested (which sums up leveling in the SL perfectly).

    2) You are often killing the exact same mobs many, many, many times, the main example being ely hecklers from 90 to 150. I do not believe that it was ever the GD's intention that level 100 characters would be killing level 180 brink mobs as a part of normal gameplay but here it is eight years after the expansion was released and no one has offered up alternatives, or managed to identify the relationship between this kind of game design flaw and the rate at which people drop out of the game due to boredom/frustration. Other games at least manage to disguise the monotony of the grind by offering frequent changes of scenery and different mobs to fight. With AO it's generally more of the same, only higher level.
    Last edited by Polaria; Mar 30th, 2012 at 00:46:08.

  15. #75
    Kintaii, I'm expecting some sort of response from you soon, because this guy is rapidly destroying your title of 'Wall of Text god'.
    Pricecuts - 220 Trader
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  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilaliya View Post
    <snip>

    I feel that you are over-analyzing what is essentially a very simple problem.

    Also, if the design philosphies that you discussed in your post are what FC has been designing the game around all of these years, maybe you should try a different approach? The population has fallen to an all-time low in spite of everything that you (meaning current and past design teams) have tried so clearly whatever approach you have been using is not working.

  17. #77
    I could be wrong but I think the point was not to over analyze but to drop some reality.
    Hecklers nasc-ely-ado done more than once on diff toons = grind
    Key quests done more than once on diff toons = grind
    Ado brain done more than once on diff toons = grind
    BS for vp or titles done more than once on diff toons = grind
    DB for bracer done more than once on diff toons = grind
    Pande for phats done more than once on diff toons = grind

    Philosophically speaking the entire game is a grind to get to end game where you grind your end game equipment. You can disguise the grind with more content but even that content will eventually become a grind. So you have to realize that to like AO means you like to grind for better or worse. No amount of content, graphics or rebalance is going to change the fact that you WILL grind in AO. So you must decide personally if what you gain from AO outweighs the fact that every toon and every alt is going to be some form of grind.
    ~Anyone can level, but only the wise gain experience~

    *Bronto Burger, serving 10,000 high level noobs daily*

    http://wolf-brigade.webs.com/

    My Story

    Don't feed the Mensa Tralalalala

    Everyday I'm Shuffling.

  18. #78
    The biggest problem I've encountered in AO over time is that it's more complex than the guidance available to the player can support without a great deal of time in consultation with other players. It's more than learning curve here. Unless you have other players telling you about what to do, it's really easy to be completely oblivious to vast segments of the game. The second problem is that a LOT of emphasis is on secondary-reward grinding, not primary-reward goals.

    I logged into the game for the first time the other day after 5+ years away, and was utterly lost for hours. It took me three hours to sort my inventory and remember what all this stuff was for. Another couple hours for the bank, and I'm still not sure why I collected some of the junk in there.

    I was found by a kind person, invited into an org, and introduced to the space station, and daily quests. These are great experience, but I prefer the old style missions functionality/fun-wise. I've always disliked PVP in any shape of form, so the station is no real mental draw for me either.

    Here's what I'd like to see...

    Special missions, using the old style mission generator, where you can request only items that you can actually use at the time of generating the mission as rewards, then you do the mission and get the item. If you want a really uncommon nano, prepare to deal with a HUGE mission with difficult enemies. If you want a psychodelic shirt, you might get a mission to kill a few enemies in a three room complex.

    Some items would be impossible to request, but if you make it so that any time you complete a mission for a rare item, you have a chance for a bonus encounter where you can get a secondary reward that is not choosable.

    There is a difference between questing for a specific item that you want, and grinding for some generic reward that you will eventually use to buy the thing that you actually want. I do enough of the latter in my every day job in the real world, grinding away at the job to slowly pay off my home and eventually retire.
    Last edited by cheopis; Mar 30th, 2012 at 05:12:21.

  19. #79
    The problem is that Ilaliya and you are using a very liberal and broad definition of "grind".
    In my mind it's a more specific thing, and it certainly doesn't cover multiple characters/playthroughs (are you "grinding" a single player game if you start a new game after completing it because you enjoyed it? I think not).

    "Man, this game is fun, let's play it some more" isn't grind, even if you're doing the same thing you did last time.
    "Oh boy I need to kill 30 more hecklers to gain a level" is grind because it's not enjoyable (well, maybe some oddballs enjoy it), it's not challenging, and it's repetitive.
    I am wiser than any god or scientist, for I have squared the circle and cubed Earth's sphere, thus I have created 4 simultaneous separate 24 hour days within a 4-corner (as in a 4-corner classroom) rotation of Earth. See for yourself the absolute proof.

  20. #80
    Why argue abot leveling with a company that has as a plan sellin levels on the ingame store? FC doesnt want to fix the problems, Its perfectly ok to have groups on the kite hill sitting from 60 to 160 so they can just enter inferno.

    Its ok to sell raid items to people that dindt attend the raid, or just roll to loot on an alt.

    Its also ok to have 2 or 3 accs logged at the same time


    Its all ok, because if fc actually fix those issues, this game will lose 80% of the 2000 active subscribers. 2000 is me beeing generous bu the way. I already got a forum acc banned a few months back, but i cant back down, i love this game too much to see ot beeing destroyed by this new bach of people running this masterpiece.

    I only got one thing to say, Silirron.

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