The Dragon & Morgan

[assassimon]

Originally posted by Villianic
Is there a big sign outside Morgan's door stating the "rules"?

This is the first time I've even heard of these "rules" as I don't read this forum much, and I know people who don't read the forum at all.

SO, without knowing there are "rules", if I took my MA, and killed Morgan for the TT I would then be unknowingly "banned" from Tara loot raffle? Thats quite a load of BS.

I hope theres no rules about wearing green pants in Borealis on the 3rd Tuesday of each month.. I mean I've never seen the rule, but I guess it could be there and could get me banned from certain things <rolls eyes>

Once again, the rules are only for the people that are in the organized raids using Tarabot, so if you don't even know about that, it won't be a problem for you.

If you are a clanner lvl 125+ feel free to send Javaschick or any other admin (I don't really know who all other admins are) a tell if you have questions about the raids, if you want to whine about it, send it to helpbot or something, the admins aren't interesting to get complains.

The rules for the tara raids are:

1) lvl 125+ clanner to participate

2) Need to be in pf and registered in Tarabot before Tara is attacked (register usually close awhile after Morgan is killed)

3) For prof specific items, only players of that prof can be in raffle (need to be with that character there, can't be in raffle if you are there with another character but have a adv or something)

Those are pretty much all rules, rest is common sense

You are allowed to be in raffle for items even if you already won it, except for nodrop items that you only can wear 1 of. (there was a rule that you couldn't be in raffle if you won same item before, but that was removed because too many complained)

Actually... invited yes... allowed to get loot no. The members of my guild that participated were invited to come help kill the thing.

And from what I could tell... the only PvP fun that occured was rooting the nuetrals :P

If you want to be greedy fine, but don't say it's for RP reasons... be an upstanding clanner and admit you're greedy. So, get some new excuses, or give up with the excuses entirely; afterall, it's pretty obvious everyone can figure out the ugly truth.

Were they invited to join tarabot?

Sometimes neutrals have asked if they can go down and take look at Tara and we help with that if not many omnis are around, neutrals have never been invited to join tarabot any of those 100+ raids I have been in (except once in the beginning when 1 got invited by mistake) and I really doubt any neutrals got called because we needed help...


If I would have been greedy I'm very sure I wouldn't vote no when clan leaders voted to raise the level limit, I wanted it to stay at lvl 125, we have no members under lvl 150 in our organization, so we would only gain on a raise.

If I would have been greedy I wouldn't even participate in the organized tararaids, I would get 1 guild team with 6 lvl 200 MAs and 1 team with docs that were healing the MAs and try to outdamage the other teams, I think we would get alot more loot that way if it was what we wanted.

and if I would have been greedy, it wouldn't be anyone from my guild that were organizing most of the raids, helping other clanners to have fun and get good loot.

So please, know what you talk about before you try to insult me.

[_________Lexusstreak]

Raffle? wth, this is the type of odd crap that I see to much of in games, why should you have to follow some invisible set of rules for players who have no more power than you or I? I wish someone would tell me I couldn't get loot ina dungeon, or i had to raffle for it, I'd just get my level 200 friends and take it by force.
My thoughts are first come first serve, and there should be an ark or gm on site to regulate how long everyone has been there, perhaps certain guilds only getting x amount of items a day to make it fair to others, I know they have inventory checking, or they can specially tag the loot, that way they'll know who it went to and even if it's been traded. x amount of items for each player every other day maybe, I say it's only fair.

[Cemetarygate]

Asmoran, I see that Erinsuin has already layed down the foundation. A simple check system to see if a person has won the item or not. Tarabot chooses person. Tarabot checks database to see if person has won item. If person has not won item, person wins item. If person has won item, Tarabot chooses person. Tarabot checks database to see if person has item. I'm sure you get the idea.

Doesn't matter if each raid has different participants.

(example)
18 hours later. We have 1 adult, 1 box of ice cream (with only 3 scoops of ice cream), 1 ice cream scoop, 8 bowls, 8 spoons, 8 kids and 1 icecreambot. Each child already has a bowl and spoon in hand. Child 1 has decided they've had enough ice cream and doesn't want anymore. Child 2 has decided they want more. Child 3 is back because they havn't had any ice cream yet. Children 4-8 are here because they hear they can get ice cream. Adult turns to icecreambot.

Icecreambot chooses child 2. Icecreambot checks database to see if child 2 has won ice cream. Icecreambot sees child 2 has won ice cream and therefore reselects. Icecreambot chooses child 4. Child 4 gets ice cream. Adult turns to icecreambot. Icecreambot chooses child, runs database check and chooses child 7. Child 7 gets ice cream. Adult turns to icecreambot. Icecreamboth chooses child, runs database check and chooses child 8. Child 8 gets icecream. 3 kids run off happy, other kids run off crying again. Don't worry kids, in 18 more hours will have more ice cream.

Another 18 hours pass. 1 adult, 1 box of ice cream (again, yes, 3 scoops), 1 ice cream scoop, 16 bowls, 16 spoons, 16 kids and 1 icecreambot. Each child already has a bowl and spoon in hand. Child 1 refuses to return again. Children 2, 4, 7 and 8 return because they want seconds. Children 3, 5 and 6 return because they still havn't won ice cream. Children 9-16 are here because they hear they can get ice cream.

I hope you see where this is going. Although returning for seconds of ice cream, children 2, 4, 7 and 8 will not be chosen for ice cream because children 3, 5, 6 and 9-16 have not won ice cream yet.

Given new participants, the chances of child 3 winning ice cream are lowered. However, because I wont give seconds to children 2, 4, 7 and 8 the odds of child 3 winning ice cream are raised back up. Thus, giving the child hope because the child knows he/she will get his/her first scoop before child 2 has seconds and thirds.

"what keeps the people who have now won a single item going instead of waiting until some time when they are eligible for loot again?"
"At which point do we say everyone has won an item and we can start the cycle over? "

Tarasque, unlike my box of ice cream, drops more than 1 type of item. I'm not asking that each person be limited to simply 1 item, I'm asking that each person be limited to 1 type of item. Seriously, does somone really need 4 HPCs? That is greed, and that's exactly what I want an end to.

You probably know better than me, but how many different types of items does Tarasque drop? 10-15? Someone wins a HPC. You tell them they can never raffle for a HPC again. Do you really think they'll stop comming when they have 14 other items to win?

Again, you probably know better than me, but how many people are registered in tarabot? 500? What's so bad about everyone getting 1 HPC before someone got a second?

In a situation where, let's say, you have 50 people in the playfield and every single one as won a HPC. Tarasque drops a HPC. That is when someone gets a second HPC. That is when hardcore players that show up everytime are rewarded. That is when dedication pays off.

You have valid concerns, Asmoran, and I can see why the "administration" has chosen its current path. But players are raising in level every day. There will always be newer level 125+ players to replace the ones that leave. People will leave no matter what you do to try and keep them. I just don't think it's fair to offer one person the same item over and over again to keep them comming back. I keep hearing someone else talk about greed in this forum, and the reason this loot system was implimented was so they would not be seen as greedy. If this is not about greed, then why do we have to keep giving the same people the same items over and over again to keep them comming back? If that's not greed I don't know what is.

[WhistlinJoe]

Man...this is sick

No way players should have this much control over other players. However, you cannot blame them, as people will take as much as they can. Its just human nature to try to control others.
In fact, the solution developed by the players wasn't too bad, but is subject to favoritism and elitism, no matter what the original intent.

Blah...

Funcom needs to take a more active role in their game. It is your fault this kind of thing exists in your game. Games should be fun first, above all else and it is your responsibility to provide that. Numerous plausible solutions have been posted on these boards and been ignored by FC.

My group of friends (no matter how small and insignificant to others) shouldn't have to worry about being black listed by any other players to get a since of fulfillment.

This must be Funcoms idea of "Land Control/Ownership" and "Player Run Economy".

Joseph

[Brutal Truuth]

All this talk , yet i am still banned for the simple reason of argueing with Java . I spoke to sevral of these "admins" and while they were nice and said they would work it out i am still banned . I even went as far as Apoligizeing to Java about my harsh words . a week later and nothing has been done . Is this the type of action you condon ?

aaronb : Do you know what ur admins are doing ? Will i ever get unbanned or should i leave it as a lost cause ?

At the request of Kungwho i stayed quiet . I apoligized , and i have even helped them knowing i wasnt going to get anything from the deal , not even a thank you when the doc went LD and i had to Heal them .

Im not in this for the loot , im in it to clear my rep in this area . God knows i have a bad rep with some people . But because of that rep in that guild i feel i am being excluded by Java because of it .

[_______________Esmee]

Originally posted by WhistlinJoe
Man...this is sick

No way players should have this much control over other players. However, you cannot blame them, as people will take as much as they can. Its just human nature to try to control others.
In fact, the solution developed by the players wasn't too bad, but is subject to favoritism and elitism, no matter what the original intent.

Blah...

Funcom needs to take a more active role in their game. It is your fault this kind of thing exists in your game. Games should be fun first, above all else and it is your responsibility to provide that. Numerous plausible solutions have been posted on these boards and been ignored by FC.

My group of friends (no matter how small and insignificant to others) shouldn't have to worry about being black listed by any other players to get a since of fulfillment.

This must be Funcoms idea of "Land Control/Ownership" and "Player Run Economy".

Joseph

look you're getting your panties in a bunch over nothing, and anyone else who gets upset about the idea.

its not that anyone has more control or people are blacklisted according to the whims of the admins.
its simply fair and if you meet the level req and are clan you're included...
i mean i think if you feel its unfair its mainly due to ignorance of the system.....no one tries to control anyone its the most FAIR solution to everyone that wants loot. why is that hard to understand, did you read the four other pages of this thread?

you have to actually go out of your way to get banned.
and Erin i sincerely doubt you are being excluded from tara due to anything that transpired previously.
whatever it is that happened in camelot it is between you and her only.
i mean i'm really hesitant to even speak for the guild like that but i like to think that none of us are that petty or mean-spirited.

[aaronb]

Originally posted by Erinsuin
All this talk , yet i am still banned for the simple reason of argueing with Java . I spoke to sevral of these "admins" and while they were nice and said they would work it out i am still banned . I even went as far as Apoligizeing to Java about my harsh words . a week later and nothing has been done . Is this the type of action you condon ?

aaronb : Do you know what ur admins are doing ? Will i ever get unbanned or should i leave it as a lost cause ?

*sigh*

Well, I just deleted my very long frustrated rant -- it's pointless.

And I just deleted my second, shorter version.

blah... I'm tired.

[Jayde]

Originally posted by aaronb

I can see where you are coming from, and believe it or not, I do sympathize. However...

Being invited to help come kill Tarasque because the neutrals want to see Tarasque is different than being invited to come kill Tarasque because we need your help. In my experience, having neutrals there is an inconvenience that occasionally we overcome in order to allow neutrals to (relatively) safely visit the dragon.

Heh...

I guess you must assume that all Neutrals are just wide-eyed weaklings that need Clan supervision? =P

One of my members had never been on a Tara raid before. Yes. That doesn't mean we bothed making the trip just to "see the Dragon." If I wanted to see the Dragon, it's really not THAT hard. (18 hour spawn isn't so bad if all you wanna do it watch. lol)

You also miss the point that there are, *gasp*, high-level neuts out there quite capable of contributing to the Tara kill. (Since you're on RK1, it seems, you're probably familiar with The Independent Rubikans)

Besides, how is it an inconvinience? That's totally BS, at least on RK2. I saw *zero* PvP in the last raid I participated in. None at all. Don't tell me you need to tab-Q Tara. =P

3. Neutrals can't expect to play both sides. It astonishes me that some clanners are falling for this. You chose to be nobody's friend at the same time you chose to be nobody's enemy.

Umm...but isn't that exactly what being neutral is all about? We pay a hefty price for it, as well. Strong sided-NPCs are always bothering us. In the early levels (pre-level 75) it's hard to travel anywhere at all. (There are sided NPCs in many towns and mission locations that would otherwise be safe.) Token boards provide a HUGE advantage to sided folks--much better than any Tara loot item. You see much neutral equipment out there?

The animosity people show toward "Neutrals" is rather disgusting, IMO.

Neutrals are just that--NEUTRAL. We are not your "enemy." We generally try to be friendly to anyone, and help them to the best of our abilities. That's why we're neutral. (Among other things.)

Yet, people like using it as an excuse to exclude Neutrals from events like this. DESPITE the fact that it would be stupid and irrational to do it from an RP perspective.

If you attack and kill a neutral and you've turned someone who was "neutral"--maybe even friendly--toward to into an enemy. Great idea. =P

If you knew anything about neutral RP, you'd know that most Neutral orgs support the Clans quite a bit, yet do not enjoy their lack of effective leadership and certain group's participation in terrorism.

Funny thing is, I have a clan alt I could use for raids. (I've never played heavily on the Omni side of things.) But I won't, simply based on principle. =P

Of course, not everyone is like the people in this thread. I have quite a few good Clanner friends...of which a few have volunteered to pass Tara loot my way if they ever get extras in a raffle. Guess I'll just have to rely on the generosity of friendly people instead.

I'm glad the Clans show so much good-will to the people who just live on Rubi-Ka without working for Omni. Really makes us trust their ability to define "freedom" and "justice".

-Jayde

[_____________Condaan]

Asmoran, if you're interested in an alternative 'fair' way to implement loot rules, I can discuss one with you IG, or post it here. Based on your comments at the Clan Leaders meetings where we voted on these rules, I assumed you were against any formal 'points' type of system.

Since it's your Bot, and a straight random is also a fair way to distribute loot, AND a large majority of clan leaders in attendance were in agreement...I didn't say anything else...hehe.

Points systems are simple though.

1 point per person per raid. (Assign this when we register)

Each item has a point value. IE:

Padded Coat 30 points (deduct this when winner is chosen)
Dragon Chest 45 points

Those points are derived by their value relative to one another.

The only marginally complicated part is this:

Tier system:

Benchmark: Person with most points who wants in the raffle
Tier 1: Anyone with at least [benchmark - 'X' pts] (X can be 5, 10 whatever)

*** if necessary ***
Tier 2: Anyone with enough points to purchase the item
Tier 3 - whatever: Anyone with points [cost - 'X'], but not enough to purchase the item.
Last TierTier: Anyone who wants the item.
*****************
When Tara is killed, have everyone enter for loot per usual. Then the bot determines benchmark and tier 1 based on who's entered. If at least one person has enough points to buy the item, the person with the highest points, who enterred the raffle is the benchmark. Anyone at the Tier 1 level who has enough points to purchase the item is included in the random.

If noone has enough points to buy the item, Bot takes the highest point total, and everyone within 'X' points of that is included in the raffle.

If noone has any points, raffle is open =).

Regardless of how the winner is chosen, that winner's points are decremented the value of the item (even if they go negative).


Pros of this system:
Eliminates One-Shot wonders.
Reduces "So-and-So always wins".
Allows players to choose what items they value.
Rewards participation.
Provides distribution based on participation.

Cons of this system:
Hard for new folks to win highly coveted items (near impossible).
Not everyone participates equally in all raids.
More code for Asmoran =/.
More load on Bot.
Participants who can only participate infrequently, have to put in a good bit of time to get to Tier 1.
Someone has to assign and monitor point values.


I'm someone who participates infrequently, but as well as I can when I'm there (I work during the week). However, I would be very much in favor of a system like this, because eventually, I could 'know' that I have a good shot at the next GPH or Dragon chest that drops.

Anyhow, I fully...FULLY support Javas and Asmoran and everything they've done thus far with the bot. We talked about rules for hours and they put up with a lot of crap. I think the open raffle system is perfectly fair, if not quite optimal for loot distribution. But, clans took back Camelot (or Omnis stopped going, depending on who you believe) and we've recently repelled their advances (again, subject to which side you believe/support). Thus, they are doing something right.

To the Neutrals, in any large group there are hotheads. The policy of Clan raids have been that...they are Clan raids. It takes a LARGE amount of communication to just not kill any tabbable char in Camelot. Personally, I've tabbed someone and done a brawl/shen/dimach when I've heard shooting. It happens =/. Also, if Neutrals are there, and Omnis show...things get fubar in all kinds of ways. Here's the argument from folks who don't want any Neutrals at our raids..."When Omnis controlled Camelot, Neutrals participated, now while clans control Camelot, they still want to participate? Pfft, if I can tab them, I'll shoot them". Not my stance, but a lot of folks feel that way.

Oh well, long post, sorry,
Condaan

[edit: spelling]

[Sheffy]

My head hurts.

--Tsk

[__________javaschick]

simple as this

truuth's main char = erin suin

erin suin = omni

no omni allowed in tarabot so truuth cannot have access until main character is clan..i've explained that to her

[Brutal Truuth]

That is a crock , if that is the case then u need to switch sevral other people off to , they have omni alts .

[Cemetarygate]

Condaan,

50 people enter raid on day one. Each person earns 1 point for their contribution. Since everyone has an equal number of points every person has an equal chance of winning that day. Person A is picked at random amongst the 50 people, winning the Dragon Chest. Person A now has <44> points. So, that person will have to attend 44 more raids just to end up back at 0.

In the mean time, some 300+ people will all have at least 1 more point than Person A because I'm sure in Person A's 44 raids at least 300 different people will have attended at least once in those raids. In other words, Person A will be at the bottom of the tier for a long time.

I don't see how this is rewarding players for participation. The first few players to win with this method will be forced to join hundreds of raids even before they can partake in winning a second piece of loot.

This method is great if you want to guarantee everyone at least one piece of loot, but winners of the first 10-20 rounds I don't think they'll ever see another piece of loot again.

[Jayde]

Condaan, you make good points...however...

Obviously, any neutral who goes to a raid knows that there is a risk of accidental (or purposeful) Tab-Qing.

I can't accept that risk for the fun of participating. That's no big deal. Especially if the person explains it was an accident. I don't care. *shrug* I can accept the risk of being an accidental victim in a PvP zone if Omnis come rushing in and a firefight ensues.

However if we help and participate, shouldn't we get to be in the raffle? Come on. I'll sit there and heal tanking clanners and shooting at Tara with them--but I can't get in the raffle because I'm not willing to throw away 7 months of being neutral?

Also, your hypotentical situation would probably be more meaningful if Omni's ever did control Tara. lol I've never been on an Omni Tara raid on RK2. And, as far as I know, the Clans own Tara pretty exclusively.

-Jayde

[geal]

its this simple to them..if you are not a friend..then you are an enemy....and imo i think that java's explaination of erin being excluded is pure bs. if you were looking in game "erin" is omni and "truuth" is clan. i dont think ppl should use out of game context to decide in game "rules", since from a rp point of view truuth and erin are 2 completely different ppl. you should not use reasons such as her main is omni so she is banned. also it makes me wonder...if a good friend of one of the admins turn to neutral..makes me wonder if they will be excluded hmm??? i think this is more of favoratism on parts of the admins of the dungeon. if you call "we dont like you so you arent included" fair, then i really dont know if that is indeed fair since all the decision of tarabot is made from the select few.

[_____________Condaan]

Cemetary,
It's equally fair that:
a person who wins a great item has to continue to particiapate in order to win more great items.

vs

a person always has a random chance to win a great item, thus has to participate in order to win.

In the exact situation you describe, one of the benefits of a points system is that the other people, who didn't win that dragon chest, now have a greater chance of winning the next items that come down the line. At some point, participation and reward are approximately equal.

Like I said in my post, I have no problem with the system now. I'd support a points system, if it was implemented. In either case, if you take the statistics over time, participation will be rewarded. With points, you force it to be equal, but it takes some administration. With a random raffle, you have outliers, but in general it evens out, and takes very little admin.

Jayde,
If Clanners NEEDED neutral participation, in order to expel the omnis, then I'd agree with you, that you should have a shot at the loot. However, on RK1, we don't need neutral participation atm, haven't needed Neutral help since we 'took camelot back', and won't for the forseeable future need neutral participation to continue to hold camelot.

Prove me wrong, and get your shots at the loot.

Also, on RK1, Omnis held Camelot for quite some time.

Lastly, if you were invited by the raid leader, to participate in the raid then you have my sympathy that you weren't allowed into the raffles. If however, you asked if it was ok to show some guildies down to the dragon, then started shooting...it'd be a different tale altogether.

Geal,
Getting an alt to 125 is so easy/fast, that if we allowed known omni alts/seconds to enter the raffle, they wouldn't even have to fight...just come with their alts. If you don't think people have the right to choose how to play, how about you make your own game of pong and go play it.

Erinsuin,
If your main is an omni, why would you want to come to a clan raid? If you know other alts, please feel free to post them, as honest clanners would like to know the loot whores in our midst.

[Brutal Truuth]

Condaan : Dont speak unless you know the whole story . My reasons for Erin being omni are quiet simple and i have expplaned them time and time again . I reset Erins Skills for tradeskills , as i dont play her often anymore . A coat i wanted to wear was omni , so i used a undercover kit to switch and put the coat on . Now i am waiting out the 140 hour ingame timer before she can be switched back .


Besides , what does it matter ? they are 2 seprate toons . To be Biased agaisnt one because of the other is total bull**** . You wouldnt know my alt was Omni if no one told you or if i haddnt posted her link in my sig . Same with other people that i know . Should they be kicked from the raffle because they have Omni alts ? What if sevral of the more prominate players had omni alts ? would u kick them ? What if some well liked people had omni alts ? would u kick them ? What if some of the admins had omni alts ? would u kick them ? What if the creator of the chatbot had an omni alt ? would u Kick HIM ?

I am not going to name names , I shouldnt have to . One character is difrent then the other and they are played as such .

[_____________Condaan]

Erinsuin, what are you, friggin big brother? I'll speak (or actually write in this case) when and how I choose. Even with your explanation, Javas description of the situation still fits, as does my response.

I would like to make a distinction, however, between alts and mains. If an Omni main, is coming to clan raids with one of their alts, then that's a problem, and they should be excluded from participation. A lot of people have an alt on different sides of the conflict, if just to know how the other side lives or see more of the game. Personally, I don't have a problem with that particular situation, but then again, I have no say in the bot anyway =). Understanding which char is the 'main' is a difficult one, and if you're only waiting out the timer, why give Javas so much grief?

You are right, I didn't know your situation. However, if your main was/is/will be an omni, then you should be excluded from participation in Clan raids of Tara.

The 2 separate toons argument holds no weight, IMHO. If omni held tara, and used that rule, I could twink up a char to 125 in no time. Would it be right for me to participate in their raffles? Not in my opinion.

The people who admin the bot are very fair, and do their best to make sure everyone there has a good experience. Giving them grief, and coming to the boards probably isn't the best way to overcome your differences.

One last thing,

You wouldnt know my alt was Omni if no one told you or if i haddnt posted her link in my sig .

If you robbed a bank, and noone found out, would it be right? No. If you're truly a clanner, then just wait out the in game timer, and quit your whining.

My 2 creds,
Condaan

[Killrmeta]

Asmoran....current system that people can win more than 1 of an item really needs to be changed. Thats obvious by all the complaining when a raffle is won by someone who is known to have won that item 2 (or more) times already.

[geal]

the fact of the matter is you are still using out of game reference to implement an in game rule. now tell me this, by your argument we could ban someone from tara loot just because a brother or a very good friend of yours was omni. the fact is explain why her omni main getting tara loot would be such a problem???if you say "well any person can twink someone up to 125 and participate" then where does the rp come in. by saying this YOU are making the assumption that this person does not rp. wouldnt it be easier to have a clan main that was 125+ and lvl up an omni to 50 and give him the tara loot???that means anyone with omni alts are excluded from tara.

"If you robbed a bank, and noone found out, would it be right? No. If you're truly a clanner, then just wait out the in game timer, and quit your whining. "

(sorry dont know how to use quotes)

i dont know if anyone see if this analogy is completely flawed..since was having an omni main illegal???if it was meant to be...funcom would have made it so that you can only join one side with lall your alts.