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Thread: Yet another thread for an improved Adventurer PvM FA pistol

  1. #1

    Yet another thread for an improved Adventurer PvM FA pistol

    References:
    http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...nturer-pistols
    https://forums.anarchy-online.com/sh...or-Adventurers
    https://forums.anarchy-online.com/sh...160-FA-pistols
    https://forums.anarchy-online.com/sh...vy-New-Pistols


    Greetings!

    First of all, please excuse me if I'm resurrecting this question again, but it might be relevant again with 18.7. Is there any possibility for the Adventurer to receive an upgraded Jobe Explorer Personal Pistol or any other replacement?

    Since 18.7 has landed, when doing random high level encounters in PvM, my Adventurer sometimes seems to have an issue with hitting full damage Full Autos due to the new Deflect mechanic ( Full Auto: If a shot is glanced, all subsequent bullets will do 50% damage. ). I have seen my 10 bullets do around 5,000-7000 damage when they should be doing upwards to the 12000-13000 damage I get in my usual setup. This does influence us a bit, reducing the overall FA portion of our damage.

    Personally, I don't really understand why we're apparently not allowed to have one. By reading old threads from 09', motives such as "op adv odd-ing soldiers", "op pvm" are brought. Come 18.7, I'm sure as developers have noticed, balance has been a bit off with the damage some professions have been dumping. Maybe it is a relevant time for something while they will be trying to rebalance the changes?

    Maybe it is possible to fill this "profound loss" by introducing a short tradeskill, new item drop or something to help us a bit with this issue? If I'm not mistaken, we must be the only profession that still uses a weapon that you equip from level 100 all to endgame PvM, all the way from 2004 to 2015. 11 years without upgrading your weapon feels quite odd.
    People have been proposing alternatives since 2011, such as tradeskilling it with a Xan Weapon Upgrade, tradeskilling it with whatever upgrade item like Peh'wer or Troa'ler does, having it as a new drop, quest/mission reward or any other way to receive it.

    Maybe with 18.7, we can solidify something that is a worthy upgrade, but does not affect the ecosystem in general. Make it happen fellow Adventurers!
    #jeppreplacement



    Quick photoshop: http://i.imgur.com/roAKgBZ.png


    The weapon
    Green - potential adjustments
    Yellow - potential damage adjustments that might upset the scales ( not changed in the form below )

    Xan Explorer Personal Pistol
    UNIQUE
    Ammo: 15/15 ( Maybe a higher clip count? 12?13?15? It would make a nice QOL change to have more bullets, and not having to reload over 6-7 each time. From an ingame/lore point of view, totally doable as some pistols can use over 50 bullets. Why would an energy clip be this low. Might influence damage )
    Quality level: 300 ( Of course a quality bump is welcome! )
    Requirements:
    Wield:

    On Self:
    Full Auto from 1x21 and ( Normally, an increased FA requirement. If designed for a TL7 215+ player, over 1221? Endgame - 1421? )
    Pistol from 2x01 and ( As well, an increased Pistol requirement. 2001? 2201? )
    Must have expansionset: Shadowlands and ( LotX requirement as all the Xan weapons? )
    Adventurer
    Ammo type: Energy Weapon Ammo ( Maybe switch to Bullets like a Twitch/Pehwer for another QoL change? )
    Damage: 200-300(100) ( Maybe a slight increase in damage? It would possibly unbalance it, just keep the Quality of Life changes instead )
    Dps: 100.0-150.0(50.0)
    Range: 2xm ( Maybe an increase in range to 25m as the other Xan weapons, specifically the Envy of the Xan? )
    Dual wield: Multi Ranged 1x00 ( Again a normal increase in requirements. 1501, 1751 depending on purpose )
    Max beneficial skill: 1000 ( Maybe a slight increase in the MBS? Like the damage, if it's unbalanced, rather have the QoL changes )
    Attack skills: Pistol 100%
    Defence skills: Dodge-Rng 100%
    Modifier:
    On User:
    Modify Max Health 125
    Modify Max Nano 125


    Damage type: Energy AC
    Description:
    This pistol was developed in Jobe for use by explorers and surveyors hired by JAME (Jobe Association of Metaphysical Exploration). A large number of these pistols were recently stolen from one of the Nascence research centers, where they were stored. This pistol has been tweaked with Xan-Tech schematics, << improving the magazine size, allowing more spare ammunition to be loaded in a clip. >> / << allowing the installation of an improved firing chamber, that allows bullet clips to be loaded. >> / << with an upgraded rifled barrel, improving the damage potential.>>
    Or something new altogether

    Risks and Benefits
    There are various risks involving changes in the ecosystem for the weapon, some of which I'll try to detail down below:

    Changing the ammo clip count
    /-\ By keeping the same stats on the weapon, but changing the ammo to improve capacity to 12-13-15 bullets, would involve having bullets hit more often, for more damage, effectively increasing damage potential. As I've seen, this is unwanted, as it would make adventurers have a higher damage output. It is somewhat possible to balance by increasing the Hardcap on the FA skill, effectively trading higher FA damage, with lower recharge.
    /-\It would modify the weapon regarding PvP as it will become more effective to use, thus changing the game by making it hotswappable or replacing AS. Higher equip delay, nullifying hotswap, -AS skills like on Troa'ler?
    /-\ On the plus side, it would help with the deflect problem in PvM that seems to be only our issue. After asking Soldiers or Fixers, they don't seem to have issues from FA deflecting, due to the high bullet count on their weapons.
    /-\ It would be a slight Quality of Life change, I'm sure most FA professions like to reload before each skill use. We wouldn't be penalized that much like we are now if we don't reload over 6-7, as we would have possibly 2-5 more bullets to play with.

    Changing Ammo type to Bullets
    /-\ I'm not sure there are any downfalls to this? People might have either gotten so bored of the Energy sound of the gun, or simply don't want it to be changed?
    /-\ It would allow us to carry just Bullet stacks, and I'm not sure how easy it is to change the weapon tracer effects and the sound to some normal handgun tracers/sounds, but I for one would appreciate this change.

    Range increase
    /-\ A negative impact would be that the Troa'ler has a 20m range. By increasing FA range, not only we can stay much further, but it will have range over the Troa'ler.
    /-\ If designed more for PvM, i see why not increase the range to 25m, compared to the Envy of the Xan. It probably would allow us to kite better I guess.

    MBS or Damage increase
    /-\/-\/-\ As I've spoken with a few Adventurers, this is a no-no, as it would lead to increased damage, and big changes regarding the PvP status of the weapon and the PvM status of the adventurer in general. If white hits are increased, or if damage is increased, it would lead to other problems, such as having a wonder weapon that would effectively OD soldiers.
    /-\ Maybe a symbolic increase of damage, or even a slight increase in MBS, if numbers permit? Most guaranteed the numbers won't allow for it.

    Changing modifiers
    /-\ I have no idea if developers use item budges, or what they use, but I'm sure changed modifiers would not agree with the above damage or clip changes, as it would add even more. We don't want more at this stage, we just want some quality of life changes, so keeping them the same would work. A symbolic bump to 150/150 possibly?
    /-\ If the item budget permits, since compared to a Troa'ler, depending on the purpose of the weapon, it could receive some nice bonuses like the Troa'lers: Health, AAO, Inits

    To draw a conclusion:
    I would like to see an upgraded JEPP with a different model, in line with Xan weapons, which has Bullet tracers and sound effects, that can use Bullets, and which has a higher clip count so I don't have to look at my bullets each 11 seconds. I don't want more damage, I don't want to upset the ecosystem.

    By testing Deflect real quickly, it can seen that since 18.7, we have been doing a bit less FA damage in high end PvM. More of a reason for a slight upgrade.
    Last edited by Timba; May 30th, 2015 at 14:52:51. Reason: grammar
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  2. #2
    +1 for a JEPP upgrade. "hell, it's about time"

    I think the damage type is actually irrelevant, since Poisonous Bite is so easy to cast now. And changing it would be counterintuitive for an upgrade.
    I'm too lazy to do math right now, but I think the MBS should be upgraded substantially for an actual upgrade.
    With a low MBS, adding 2 or 3 to clip size feels insignificant with the multiple damage reductions past 10k.
    No further significant work is expected to be done on this project going forward.

  3. #3
    As I've detailed in the Risks and Benefits sections, after speaking with a few fellow adventurers, we're way more than okay in the damage department.

    A MBS or a damage increase would net us far more damage and would even change our DD status or PvP status. This is not planned nor desired from what I have seen, so in this case, just a few Quality of Life changes could work, such as bullets instead of energy ammo, a higher range, higher clip count at the cost of a slight increased hardcap requirement to offset increased FA hits, even if insignificant from the post 12.5k calculation.

    As you've stated, given PB can be casted in any form, and is actually desired, the Damage type is irrelevant.
    Last edited by Timba; May 30th, 2015 at 12:04:13.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Timba View Post
    The adventurer would still prefer reloading before each FA, of course,
    When - and why - did that change ? Around 2008 it was common sense that reloading prior to FA was not beneficial.
    I went to test this on a punching bag today, and the average difference between 10 and 8 bullet FAs is about half a normal hit of the JEPP.
    That doesn't tempt me to da an extra reload.
    No further significant work is expected to be done on this project going forward.

  5. #5
    For my adv, buffed in cat+self aura, not running Beckoning, Frenzy or OSB, I get:
    10 Bullets
    You hit Punching Bag for 12590 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Punching Bag for 12707 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Punching Bag for 13014 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Punching Bag for 12472 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Punching Bag for 12419 points of Full Auto damage.

    9 Bullets
    You hit Punching Bag for 12083 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Punching Bag for 12287 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Punching Bag for 12070 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Punching Bag for 12163 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Punching Bag for 11895 points of Full Auto damage.

    8 Bullets
    You hit Punching Bag for 11177 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Punching Bag for 11594 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Punching Bag for 11651 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Punching Bag for 11959 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Punching Bag for 11550 points of Full Auto damage.
    More or less around a ~1060 damage difference from 10 to 8. I know that during reloading, you don't do white hits, so reloading above 8 hits is ... a damage loss since you could get 1 main hand white + 1 offhand ?
    Seems after testing it might be a loss... something to take note of.

    With Frenzy + Beckoning (+370dmg):
    10 Bullets
    You hit Punching Bag for 13671 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Punching Bag for 13509 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Punching Bag for 13605 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Punching Bag for 13617 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Punching Bag for 13458 points of Full Auto damage.

    9 Bullets
    You hit Punching Bag for 12884 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Punching Bag for 13259 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Punching Bag for 13113 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Punching Bag for 12998 points of Full Auto damage
    You hit Punching Bag for 12840 points of Full Auto damage.

    8 Bullets
    You hit Punching Bag for 12697 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Punching Bag for 12416 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Punching Bag for 12441 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Punching Bag for 12542 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Punching Bag for 12318 points of Full Auto damage.
    More or less the same ~1090 difference as normal.

    So I guess we're not supposed to even reload above 8 ? In this case adding more hits in our clip will slightly improve damage, if I can interpolate it, by around 125-200 damage per bullet added past the 13.5k mark? So five bullets might give us a 1k-1.5k increase? + having to reload normally less often giving us perhaps 2-4 more white hits / min

    Thanks for pointing this out, i'll edit the main post.
    Last edited by Timba; May 30th, 2015 at 13:25:37.
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  6. #6
    Testing deflect, I came up with these results. I know the data set has too few results to make a trend, but from what I saw, we have this:

    All are 10 bullet hits, self buffed cat+self aura, 3036 AR / 2411 Pistol / 1440 FA, hitting the level 250 Zodiac @ Pande portal. Basically 5 FA /minute simulation of a high level endgame creature.

    Deflect - Full Auto: If a shot is glanced, all subsequent bullets will do 50% damage.

    You hit Zodiac for 10665 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Zodiac for 11910 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Zodiac for 12085 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Zodiac for 12085 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Zodiac for 10108 points of Full Auto damage.

    You hit Zodiac for 11997 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Zodiac for 10490 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Zodiac for 10299 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Zodiac for 11910 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Zodiac for 11536 points of Full Auto damage.

    You hit Zodiac for 10124 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Zodiac for 7320 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Zodiac for 8052 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Zodiac for 7320 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Zodiac for 10108 points of Full Auto damage.

    You hit Zodiac for 8784 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Zodiac for 9516 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Zodiac for 12260 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Zodiac for 10840 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Zodiac for 7320 points of Full Auto damage.

    You hit Zodiac for 11015 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Zodiac for 12172 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Zodiac for 11997 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Zodiac for 7320 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Zodiac for 12085 points of Full Auto damage.

    You hit Zodiac for 7320 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Zodiac for 11631 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Zodiac for 10490 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Zodiac for 12172 points of Full Auto damage.
    You hit Zodiac for 10299 points of Full Auto damage.
    From 30 Full Auto hits, in 6 minutes, 18 hits were partially deflected = 60% of my FAs were deflected.
    From 12 non deflected Full Auto hits, we can see a medium of ~12000 damage.

    From the 18 hits, 5 were low enough to do ~7320 damage when a normal hit would have done 12,000. If the first shot glanced, It would have done ~1200+6000=7200, so first shot probably glanced.

    From the 18 glanced hits, medium damage is around 8714 damage.

    That's a medium loss of 12000-8714= 3286 damage per deflected FA.

    To put it in a minute, we would lose ~10000 FA damage per minute with the 60% Deflect rate. I don't think Soldiers or Fixers have this problem with their FA hits and large bullet count from what I asked around. So since 18.7 landed, on high level mobs, we actually lose quite a bit of damage with the Deflect changes. Damage is even lower if we do 8 bullets, since from the upper posts it seems it's detrimental to reload above 8.
    Last edited by Timba; May 30th, 2015 at 18:30:35.
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  7. #7
    I got curious about this and tested FA last night with JEPP in energy dmg gear vs. SOCOM & BigBurger in poison dmg gear. Same Zod mob. I'm at work atm so I don't have the damage logs, but I did notice that both SOCOM and BigBurger seemed more consistent than JEPP, if lower in damage. Based on Timba's testing I can only assume that the consistency is due to the higher clip sizes. Is there anyone else that can test and confirm?
    Quote Originally Posted by Esssch View Post
    I think you're wrong. I think AO is the most balanced MOBA out there.

  8. #8
    Tl7 again! Why does nobody think about tl1-6! Its a good idea imo but the pistol should be abailable for all level ranges or at least some equivalent.
    ▒▒▒▒▒▒▒
    ▒▒▒▒▒▒▒
    ▒▒▒▒▒▒▒

  9. #9
    The main problem is our ranged end game option, I mean the lack of, a problem which we have been stuck with for the past eleven years!

    Of course I guess it could be made for lower level ranges as well, or a lower upgrade path, given the new 150 area is coming, but I'm not sure how they will manage to balance it, as I've stated, it seems very prone to upsetting the balance if we are to upgrade it's damage or MBS.
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  10. #10
    I'd like the idea, and +1 for the detailed post.

    The FA pistol if viable from lvl 60ish. So available at an early lvl range. What's weird is that we don't have pistol support in the AS department while the buffs are there to support that..
    Last edited by Zwelgje; Jun 2nd, 2015 at 21:26:33. Reason: great PS skills there ;-)

  11. #11
    Been a month and a bit, any more Adventurer feedback? I've tried thinking about all the pros and cons, and everything should be in the initial post.
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  12. #12
    never saw the reason why advys couldn't get a new FA pistol. something similar to the envy, maybe another upgrade for the lust, just something with a much bigger magazine then 10.
    Former Assistant Director of Pack of Noobs

    Fake Friday with Means, and it worked!

  13. #13
    Zwelgje, could you possibly bring it by Michizure and get some feedback?
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  14. #14
    would be nice also add an improved pistol buff with pistol and FA also .. Add 120 more pistol and include the genade nano line that engi buff uses..

  15. #15
    is envy possible on advy these days?

  16. #16
    Old one I'll pick this one up again and we'll see.

    Adding more stuff to our weaponlines might not be ideal and the High DD special like FA is already a odd ball for Adventueres. It's only suported by that one pistol introduced somewhere with SL long long long ago. However since 2008/ Xan AS pistol switching to AS is even weirder stuff and even supported by buffs now which we didnt even ask for (and are hated for by some). Again this prime focus is PvP as AS isn't as viable as FA is in PvM. On the other hand AS looks more in-line with SA and Backstab....

    I always thought of AS being a counter part of SA and the FA for the BS equivelent. And because ranged had some more benifits compaired to melee the need for switching pistols seemed justified. The inbalance between the FA and AS are however kinda weird and as mentioned earlier more in favour of PvP. The FA upgrade would be a great and welcome addition.

    Back to the buffs. The AS buff we have gotten is nothing more then the same ability an Agent has buffing AS but in the form of a Advy-self buff... I'd rather see our AS buff removed and soldiers gain the ablility to buff others FA in the same manner Agents can buff AS.
    Last edited by Zwelgje; Aug 31st, 2015 at 12:02:23.

  17. #17
    Any new info on this one Zwelgje?

    Any opinions from fellow adventurers?
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  18. #18
    Maybe just pop in xan upgrade on twitch, and give it FA capped speed with 1750FA
    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    This'll be fixed for the next patch

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Timba View Post
    Any new info on this one Zwelgje?

    Any opinions from fellow adventurers?
    I think I've sent Mich a tell on this (seems I did not) and after that I've not had the time to follow up on it. Will do now (and I did).

    To be honest some of the more recent tweaks (read stuff on the morph others?) have been completely done without me being notified, which strikes me as kinda odd, but w/e. No time for real game play atm nor testing, only had time to read some minor stuff or been online to update my GMI junk and chatter with old friends returning for the festivities, as I've started a new character @ RK3 since the end of September.

    Will try to make the time for issues to get addressed but if stuff takes to long please feel free to post again and/or sent me a tell.

    When I’m online the best chances are; Zwelgje, Globar, Oboema, Stunzor or Chindogu
    Last edited by Zwelgje; Nov 5th, 2015 at 16:05:53. Reason: Fix it felix

  20. #20
    Congratulations
    Happy to hear stuff is going on at least.
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