Economy after 18.7

[Teeko]

Okay, so we all know the predicament our economy has been in for years. It has been taken over by people using exploits to gain infinite amounts of credits, absolutely trashed by credit sellers, and then weirdly regulated in a "hands off" approach by FC with grace. Here is where I see it stands now: Our most expensive item, the item that the economy revolves around, 300 CC armor, is at an all time low. I haven't seen this armor sell for 400m since pre-gmi on rk2. So thats great and all! However, the problem with that is, FC now has huge amount of cred sinks in the game. We have 150m a month for a normal, large city. We have 20m for full perk resets after the first one. We have 400m for endgame nanos that are capped and from a vendor. We have these huge cred sinks in the new ICC shops.

So, here is what I suggest. Those nanos from the Greedy Shade need to be lowered. We have certain people in game making tons of money buying them with high CL and reselling. People that make a living honestly, don't have the money to buy them anymore, and nanos that were worth 150m from a player before this, are now 400m from an NPC.(while everything else has gone down in price) I understand the needs for cred sinks. I understanded the need for it for years, with the exploits and the immense amount of credits created from s10. But, at this point that is all long over. People can't make any money. Can't make money selling lootrights, can't make money selling other items. Items worth hundreds of millions of credits are now worth less than 50. Meanwhile, we are spending MORE money to just function in the game(cities, perk resets, now nanos for endgame characters, or even nanos used while leveling in some cases)! This has got to change. Greedy shade nanos are not worth more than 2 months of city rent. I suggest we bring those nanos down to maybe 100m for the top nanos. We can leave other cred sinks in the game, since things like perk resets aren't that ridiculous at 20m, and cities are meant to be crowdfunded, so to speak.

Share your thoughts! I know I'm a bit frustrated with certain things about the improved nanos being changed. For my doctor, I lost my top nano init buff, gained a dot that is marginally better than what I had before, and then have to rebuy that same init buff for 400m. Never gonna fly.

[Ophiuchus]

It is an interesting predicament and I've been wondeirng at what point the game will collectively tip past the point of 'too many creds, not enough things to spend it on' into 'too many things, not enough creds'. I suppose that depends on whether the cred exploits really have all been sealed up or not. It's also a fluctuating function of the fact stuff has just drastically changed up and a lot of people have both resubbed (item flood from bank clearing) and a fair few have also quit or let their resub lapse. It'll take some time for things to find their own normalised equilibrium.

I've been feeling the GMI price drops myself, being that this is how I pay for my city, perk resets and various other things. I would farm or acquire the things I was happy to do, sell it on and use the creds to buy things I either couldn't or didn't want to do myself. That's getting tougher to do now.

So, while I'm not adverse to greedy shade prices being lowered, that is only one small change and as yet I don't think it's been long enough to see how the market will run. I'd rather ensure the greedy shade is not the sole method of obtaining any of the nanos it sells so that it becomes like the QL300 implant terms in ICC: instant convenience at the cost of creds vs time/effort spent to acquire by cheaper means.


EDIT: CCP had a full time economist analysing the in Eve Online game markets for some time and the stuff he reported was eye-opening to read. Wish FC could afford to do that for their live games so that they, and us, could get a much tighter grasp on what's actually happening with everything. Hell even just a few more GMI indicators like past sales history, average price, units sold per day etc would help. That was the only good thing about Rift's market system changes a while back.

[Le-Quack]

game is usualy dry each summer

[Alternity]

EDIT: CCP had a full time economist analysing the in Eve Online game markets for some time and the stuff he reported was eye-opening to read. Wish FC could afford to do that for their live games so that they, and us, could get a much tighter grasp on what's actually happening with everything. Hell even just a few more GMI indicators like past sales history, average price, units sold per day etc would help. That was the only good thing about Rift's market system changes a while back.

Eve's economy is different as it driven by true supply and demand. Ships and equipment blown up needs replacement. There is an entire player driven economy behind that effort. Mining, research, production, exploring, PvM grinding and so forth. No one is safe in EVE, and thus the economy is driven by the multitude of ways people employ to blow each other up.

**EDIT**

Also EVE has real market tools, leaving the gmi we have looking horribly inadequate. Not to mention that CCP offers great API support for players to develop 3rd party market tools.

[Cratertina]

City upkeep is no problem at all, if your org is active... if it isn't why have city.

As for Greedy shade nanos... filthy greed! But those nanos do drop ingame. And always were expensive, some of them went for 1400M at high point. and 400 now seems resonable.

Offcorse some were 140M before and now seem espensive.

Overall this major shift in economy is great. When picking up inferno mission lewt its easy to make 10-15m per mission, of something you farm a lot. Provided you cut pearls and shopflood stuff on trader shop. 10-15M before was like nothing. But now its 1/4th of lowbie supple, some part of endgame lewt, maybe a new weapon... a WU! so you can get enough credits by looting and selling to shop now.

Something in the past when prices were 100m for common items, 300m for uncommon stuff and 1bil+ for rare.

I would however never give credits to greedy shade!

[appolonia]

So, tu sum up :

- Everybody shall be in a large org of rich people, even if their org is soon 14 yo and language locked, and the few remaining people have become friends.

- People not in such orgs can't access city raids or benefit from city advantages, even if the city was built the very day AI was released and you already farmed/paid billions of upkeep (good old days my trader was only turning thousands of MP bags into creds, how fun).

- People who can't afford 18€/month might aswell die since they can't farm credits 24/7 to budget the upkeep while they can't buy playtime, what's obviously the very goal of AO.

- Everybody shall let your TS trader loot in Inf mishes (instead of helping your mates), and every inf mish shall be a monster one.


.. all this in a dying game where FC did nothing about (identified) sploiters and (identified) creds sellers, and now sets high prices supply/demand and reality of money flows won't affect. At least anybody could farm ingots and S10.


Brilliant, just brilliant.

[Awikun]

As for Greedy shade nanos... filthy greed! But those nanos do drop ingame. And always were expensive, some of them went for 1400M at high point. and 400 now seems resonable.

Correct me if I am wrong but some nanos like "Smoke Bomb" have never dropped ingame (as it was introduced in 18.7 patch) and I am afraid that Greedy Shade is the only place where you can get it.

It seems to me very unfair that some new nanos were added to OFAB shopss with prices 5k-10k VPs and some other to Greedy Shade for 400m+ ....

[appolonia]

To get back on track after this (and hoping Crat will avoid drinking/drugs/headbanging in the future), however you take it, things are changing and the actual trend might break in the coming months ; number of people playing, farming, emptying banks, changing their priorities, whatever.

Like AAD clusters, shade nanos are too expensive provided the lack of reliable sources of credits AND the almost inevitable expends playing/levelling implies. Then, you can still farm them (it wasn't true until they brought back the weirds but I'm still cautious about their % drop) so being able to shopbuy them is indeed a comfort, more than a credit sink. Moreover, it sets prices so that people 1/ know the amount of creds they could ask for if they drop them 2/ people dropping them won't ask for stupid prices.

Things would have been terrible if NS2/GA4 were sold in shops, because you have ot work for them. MOST weirds are 100% endgame nanos you can live without and AAD refined clusters are obviously used to optimize/compensate. The fact people absolutely want them is their problem, and it's up to them to bring solutions. Then if people are stupid enough to kick your crat because it doesn't have ICRT even though he does the job...

Of FC countless fails was the... rework... no really it was another 100% brainless fail, about some weird/SL quest nanos. I was lucky enough to have my fixer's semi sentient upgraded to improved (...) but the loss of inits nanos for docs and SL tag on some weirds is just that, a failure, and it shall obviously be fixed to player's benefit, whatever, and there's no way unless FC actually sets things back (easy for docs) and give froobs a nodrop compensation (to avoid scam) to what they lost.

Just saw a weird semi sentient on sale for 180m... 500ish in Greedy. So there's hope (and reason).

But that shall not hide the good point of greedy shade and shops, fixed-price available things you don't rely on SOMEBODY ELSE'S WILL to afford. The drawback is sinking creds into the machine instead of feeding players, but when people farm again, nothing prevents you from feeding them instead. For once I think avoiding supply/demand/market is a good thing, but it sure needs time to hit people.

I based my IG fortune on (dropping and) selling a GA4 nano for 400M, 9 months after release. 400M, can you picture what efforts it required to gather so much money. Then I bought an ellts for 800m and sold it after SL (obviously didn't have any use of my trader anymore...) for... 2B. 2 damn billions. And I could swear by this player's reputation he didn't scam or whatever. You actually CAN make money, step by step.

Crater is somewhat right about it. Monster parts still drop (1m5 per 200s bag), CRUs (how many were left rotting), pearls (I usually make 30M in 2H just killing inf dryads while farming doja and chatting), RK mishes rewards... Sure you won't make zillions as fast as some jerks did, but it's reliable. Either you wish luck for a rare thing to drop in days of camping, or you get lower but regular money. Like so many of us did before ^^

Then you can work on your SL keys (good opportunity to revive the game) and unless you didn't spend an IP in CL (and psychology ?) you won't see a difference in prices (tested it with 220 Trader Engi and Crat, I can guarantee there's no way to make HUGE credits that way)

Well, some people are just Escam slaves (...) so if she, sorry, "they", make bazillion credits on reselling Greedy nanos it's on quantity/fee, not pricings (and I'm usually the first one to flame her) (damn, "them") (I didn't name anybody, did I ?)

(100% agree with Awikun, forgot about those)

[doctorgore]

Greedy shade is working as intended... http://postimg.org/image/xtndcgf1j/

[Soju]

aniversary will bring back a tiny bit of creds that resubbers have locked away.

some ways im thinking about credit generation is.
Inferno new missions drop a lot and high ql pearls.
possibility of bounty farming w/ a multibox in s42.

[Teeko]

As for Greedy shade nanos... filthy greed! But those nanos do drop ingame. And always were expensive, some of them went for 1400M at high point. and 400 now seems resonable.

Sure some of the nanos were 1400m, if you mean ONE nano. ONE. The next most expensive was about 400m, and every other one cheaper.

[Teeko]

Correct me if I am wrong but some nanos like "Smoke Bomb" have never dropped ingame (as it was introduced in 18.7 patch) and I am afraid that Greedy Shade is the only place where you can get it.

It seems to me very unfair that some new nanos were added to OFAB shopss with prices 5k-10k VPs and some other to Greedy Shade for 400m+ ....

Also my point. I am currently in the situation that I need to spend well over 2b in nanos at the greedy shade. Why should I have to do this on characters that were previously finished!? I don't mind buying some more VP nanos, everyone has VP lying around, or at the very least can get it super easy with dailies and BS. But I shouldn't be forced to spend so much money when I am not one of the people that used any credit exploit.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

ya I need a few nanos on crats and I'm a bit irritated that I can't just go camp SL dungeons for a few weeks to find them.

I'm pretty irritated by the whole "greedy shade" thing, screw it. get him out of game.

[doctorgore]

I've given my opinions on this issue in multiple threads now and going back. I knew anything involving weird nanos not being changed into a quest nano or vp would end in a huge fiasco and disaster. They were flawed since SL came out and greedy shade was nothing more than coddling whining greedy cred sellers that bitched and moaned in at least a dozen threads here a year on this subject.

You have to pay more for nanos on characters you finished cause greedy scumbags wanted weird nanos to be a holy treasure of ao they could use to make creds.
When my friends get hate tells over these wonderful items well... The french knew how to deal with this and I'll say it again prep the Guillotine.

No piece of a professions toolset should cost millions of creds or be some super rare world drop. That includes weird nanos and NS1-2 GA etc. That is bad game design plain and simple and goes against modern game design standards and practice and most of all common sense.

[Ekarona]

Greedy shade is working as intended... http://postimg.org/image/xtndcgf1j/

I freely admit my cost is at around 350M for those nanos. He was selling it at 350M price I charge on forums for which I add 10% commission. This allowed me to bumb the nano I'm selling back to 500M.

[doctorgore]

I freely admit my cost is at around 350M for those nanos. He was selling it at 350M price I charge on forums for which I add 10% commission. This allowed me to bumb the nano I'm selling back to 500M.

Dirty pool.

[Technorabbit]

Lower greedy shade nanos quickly and without warning. Lower necessities slowly.

[larzba77]

So now weirds are both sold and and can be farmed. So now peeps complain they cost to much to buy from Greedy, then ther is another option farm em like we/you did before. If not just drop em, none of em are make or break for any endgame. Want the little extra spend some time to get the little extra. Some semi-rare/rare stuff is what makes this game interesting. If it was just lvl 220 and get all stuff thrown at ya the population would drop very fast. It gets boring very fast fast if you can have a fully 100% toon equiped almost insta.
Just my opinion, maybe everyone on forums disagree ill live With that

[Lordaegis]

The amount of credits we spend buying from shops and greedy shade is alot more than the amount we geting from selling pearls etc to shops, soon orgs wont be able to pay for city rent and its going to be rly hard life in AO

[Aimzor]

Text.

Well, there is still an opening for FC to implement a system within AO that reacts on real demand. Better sooner then later? And personaly I'd like to see that happening. Give every item in AO a purpose to be tradeskilled and downgraded into a few basic building blocks that can be sold and repurposed into other stuff.

True not many items are leaving ingame, there is no ship loss etc. but lets introduce things little at a time. Alot of stuff is rotting atm either never looted or collecting dust in Bank or GMI. Hording all kinds of items is terrible and unmanageable and a waste of gametime.

Perhaps start to (putting it simple ):
1) Create your basic building blocks/ basic elements. We already have a few, Notum (in different QL of raw, pure, refined etc.) just think up more. Plasma, Bio cell's extract etc. You (or we?) name it. This can already be done and should not impact the game all that much. It will only help managing what's more to come.
2) Every item ingame should be reusable. For that to happen all items should be indexed what they could be worth and tradeskilled into. Tremendous effort with which the communitty could help out? (This is big, realy big)
3) Recipies, and lots of it. (also something the community could help with?)
4) Stuff that needs upkeep to put in the reusable stuff and to keep things flowing. To promote this all, usable things should be removed from shop: Bullets, kits, stims, CRU, towers and buildings. etc etc. Think up tons of new stuff. And perhaps in small steps even remove shops entirely minus a few basics.
5) GMI should have a buy option ran by FC, on all the basic stuff and elements ingame to generate creds and manage flow.
6) A system to help with the tradeskilling if players do not meet the requirments and for real tradeskillers to have a real benefit.

And perhaps out of the box; Even gametime could be tradeskilled O.o Sounds weird and not profitable for FC in the first place, but could be the biggest game-items drainer in the world fueling the marked all on it's own while not impacting the income of FC to much.

This might be partially a copy of what is used in Eve (perhaps add our own saus to the mix) but does that matter? What matters is that people want to generate creds to buy stuff from other players. And there is alot of room for traderskilling in this game that is currently kinda not there at all. There are players that like to PvP, PvM, farm stuff, help others and tradeskill or like to place 1 cred buy orders on the GMI... There arn't real tradeskillers anymore as there use is kinda mehh and the numbers of real items that need tradeskilling is to few or realy worth it.