Keeper damage

[Blackcradle]

I read it. I'm just certain the people you went up against are/were utterly awful. Just like an ME keeper is. I'm also not sure why you picked out those specific three professions that have seemingly nothing in common. Any soldier who would die to a keeper whose only damage is SA sounds pretty bad.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I read it. I'm just certain the people you went up against are/were utterly awful. Just like an ME keeper is. I'm also not sure why you picked out those specific three professions that have seemingly nothing in common. Any soldier who would die to a keeper whose only damage is SA sounds pretty bad.

Not to defend midgar, but, to argue the point. I don't think you're thinking this through.

ME setup has some fairly interesting advantages, but also disadvantages.

For reference, I saw a keeper wtf pwn a soldier in 4 duels, and, in the last one I watched, he didn't even use Bio R, and thats in a 2he setup.

Keepers are a very tricky class. Some profs at 220 are going to be very difficult, no question, but, others, breed dependant are going to be good fights that can be won with a bit of foresight and planning.

I can't speak for an ME setup keeper, but, what I can say is that I know a fair amount about the class, and from my experience, I'd definitely not lump ME keepers into the "utterly awful" bin.

Consider the obvious benefits:
1. weapons check Duck (this on its own gives you a fairly significant advantage on 2he keepers and shades)
2. you don't have to land normal perks to create optimal damage
3. your big hit is 100% to land
4. your big hit can do capped damage (not sure of regularity)
5. wrath still works
6. far more chances for procs, at 1-1, you're getting 36 regs,10FA, 4 Brawl, 1.5 SA per minute vs. 30 regs, 6 FA, 4 brawl per minute in 2he (51.5 vs 40) so more than 20% more chance for procs
7. 15+36 more AR from weap and glory proc without swaps

The disadvantage is AR.
however, this disadvantage is moderated by several factors, such as, vs most toons you won't need high AR. The toons you need high AR against, you will have to wait for glory, then pop soli genome+insight, or pop MR.

Overall, it sounds interesting, and I certainly don't think you can just relegate the setup to the garbage bin. Personally, I don't think you've understood or clearly thought out the benefits.

[NoGoal]

For reference, I saw a keeper wtf pwn a soldier in 4 duels

That's clearly not a reference There are soldiers you can easily tank forever and some who alpha you.

There are pros and cons for ME for sure but, if you want to be different, I'd rather go with a Tiger or any fast AS weapon. You can wear CSS, ditch reaver for SD+NR, perk MR+CoNC+CoLA for a ranged `alpha`, etc. It would suck for PvE though :P

With the amount of defensive tools we have, keeper is a formidable ranged opponent in team PvP... if you don't mind spamming O.

The problem is still the same though, why would you play a non-2he keeper while other professions can perform better? If you want dual wield + SA, play either enfo, shade or adv. If you want AS, you have even more prof options.

So, for me, it's either 2he or I'd play another profession (till 2121 when balance will fix everything).

[Blackcradle]

Not to defend midgar, but, to argue the point. I don't think you're thinking this through.

Defend him all you like. I don't know how many times I have to say I've thought it through though. Not that there is very much to consider despite what you seem to think.

For reference, I saw a keeper wtf pwn a soldier in 4 duels, and, in the last one I watched, he didn't even use Bio R, and thats in a 2he setup.

Well I'm certainly glad you included this little tidbit. If I wasn't certain everything you've ever said was totally true, I now have no doubts.

Keepers are a very tricky class. Some profs at 220 are going to be very difficult, no question, but, others, breed dependant are going to be good fights that can be won with a bit of foresight and planning.

Keepers are in fact, NOT a very tricky class. They are in fact the OPPOSITE of a tricky class, something funcom clearly agrees with me on given the names of certain keeper nanos, specifically blow their cover. As far as being tricky goes I will say that of all the 220s I play keeper has hands down the least tricks up its sleeve. Stick to describing tl5 because everything you say seems to indicate you don't have a very good grasp of Tl7 pvp.

I'll continue by breaking down your 'obvious' points:
1. weapons check Duck (this on its own gives you a fairly significant advantage on 2he keepers and shades) - This is true, it's Keepers worst evade skill. Too bad an ME keeper still wouldn't be able to perk you.... which brings me to...
2. you don't have to land normal perks to create optimal damage - regular hits rule tl7 pvp - common knowledge.
3. your big hit is 100% to land - true.
4. your big hit can do capped damage - ask enfs or even advys with a better skill template how often SA caps on non-low-HP targets.
5.Wrath still works - incase you didnt know this works like a perk. Even at tl5! So no it wouldn't.
6. far more chances for procs - because you'd be landing regular hits a lot with that godawful AR.
7. 15+36 more AR from weap and glory proc without swaps - While the weapon stat advantage is welcome, it's kind of bittersweet when you're losing the AR of your only main weapon skill.
I'll add a few of my own now:
8. You can still use HM perks and this is nice because if you still have 2he trained you might actually be able to lower the defense of a target enough to land a few of your scary normal hits.
9. 10 free perks to gain lots of unneeded survivability vs targets you have no hope of ever killing.
10. Ability to show up at GSP events without needing to put different weapons in your social tab.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Well, as it turns out, the check on wrath is 2he skill+AAO vs evade close, and, despite not equipping a 2he weapon, it still functions.

So, as long as you have 2he skill trained, you can still use the perk/weapon.

As for SA on low HP targets, I'll tell you straight off, SA rarely doesn't cap, it will almost always hit for at least 4k PVP damage, and, somewhat obviously, you only need SA on the high evade/low HP targets.

I highly doubt ME keepers would ever be able to kill a doctor that can stay awake, or an advy who doesn't have a death wish, but thats roughly the same as it is now.

@ nogoal, I don't think the point of it is to be original. The point of it is to try out ME prior to rebalance.

w/e.

I think 2he is fine, personally, I just like to see people testing new setups and discussing it's relevance in combat.

@ blackcradle, the 10 extra perks could go to NR7-8 + FS 2-3 which could be really nice for mass PVP too.

[Blackcradle]

Well, as it turns out, the check on wrath is 2he skill+AAO vs evade close, and, despite not equipping a 2he weapon, it still functions.

So, as long as you have 2he skill trained, you can still use the perk/weapon.

I realize this. I was alluding to the fact that it would really never land, just like any other perks. Satirizing the very same thing you had just said in your list. An ME keepers 2he skill isn't going to be spectacular either.

As for SA on low HP targets, I'll tell you straight off, SA rarely doesn't cap, it will almost always hit for at least 4k PVP damage, and, somewhat obviously, you only need SA on the high evade/low HP targets.

I specifically stated non-low HP targets. And you'll need SA on any target as an ME keeper - because that's the only big damage you'd really be doing.

[Xirayne]

Not sure if I'm right here but isn't there a ~300 point difference between 2he and ME from IP alone? It is a dark blue skill... and that's not including the 170 from research, 180 from perks, the 140 from buffs.. 30 from star/nanodeck, 20 from ofab ring.. that's already a difference of over 800 attack rating, if a ME keep can get "3200 ar", then does that mean a 2he keep can get over 4k ar? o.o or am I really missing something lol

[McKnuckleSamwich]

no, but, you're probably missing some pretty simple stuff that you might not perk normally if youre in a 2he setup because 2he setup's don't generally lack AR.

But, try: Sphere, 100AAO, Glory 36 AAO, 15 AAO on weap, 230ish on insight?, 24 on each Tier 3 shoulder for 48, DB1 raidbuff 80 AAO, DB2 raidbuff 20 AAO, 275 learning tower 50 ME, 275 Presence tower 90 AAR =

669 AR

So, you might think youre losing 800 AR, but, you're probably actually only missing 150ish based on you not counting some optional AR sources.

But, if you want to see solid 2he keeper AR, do a search on righteous... where he pops insight, sphere, gets glory proc, then swaps to Jobe-Made bladestaff, for pretty hefty AR without MR.

[Xirayne]

so a ME keeper with all his short aao boosts up and towers and db buffs and glory will get some 300 less AR (ofab pads give more 2he than t3 pads give ME, plus 40 from ofab body?) than an untowered, non db buffed, non insight and non sphere'd 2he keeper? so for 20s ME keeper with absolutely everything can scrape 2.8k?-ish ar for some serious normal hit pwnage? :x where does 3.2k come from, plus sphere means you either gave up conc or cohi, which means even less damage from perks

A problem I'm seeing here is that if ME setup works well as it is currently, and midgar is the unstoppable 3.2k ar uber pwning ME keeper as he says he is, then there would really be no reason to balance ME for keepers at all would there? Kinda a real bummer for those who really would like a viable ME option for keepers for the rebalance if it turns out that the ME setup is total garbage like it sounds like. Not trying to be mean.

[Lazy]

so a ME keeper with all his short aao boosts up and towers and db buffs and glory will get some 300 less AR (ofab pads give more 2he than t3 pads give ME, plus 40 from ofab body?) than an untowered, non db buffed, non insight and non sphere'd 2he keeper? so for 20s ME keeper with absolutely everything can scrape 2.8k?-ish ar for some serious normal hit pwnage? :x where does 3.2k come from, plus sphere means you either gave up conc or cohi, which means even less damage from perks

to be fair, 2.8k ar is enough to perk anyone except fixers, mas, advs, shades, nt's that blinded you, shield mps, bow mps that landed dazzle, def docs, crats, or marinesold

so all in all it's a fairly viable setup

[NoGoal]

where does 3.2k come from

pick your poison:

1. forum pvp
2. forum e-peen
3. MR

[Blackcradle]

So, you might think youre losing 800 AR, but, you're probably actually only missing 150ish based on you not counting some optional AR sources.

Give it up already. I enjoy different builds just as much as the next guy but it's pretty obvious you're losing more than 150 AR. A lot more.

to be fair, 2.8k ar is enough to perk anyone except fixers, mas, advs, shades, nt's that blinded you, shield mps, bow mps that landed dazzle, def docs, crats, or marinesold

so all in all it's a fairly viable setup

You forgot def agents, good enfs, traders, (good bow MPs have a lot higher than 2.8k def rating, more like 3.2). So that leaves you with Engis, Docs, Soldiers, AR Agents. Then we remember that even if he had 2.8k AR he doesn't have any good perks to land. All in all I'm not seeing 1 advantage.

pick your poison:

forum pvp
forum e-peen
MR

He's solitus. Although I think the first two cover the explanation just fine.

[Lazy]

You forgot def agents, good enfs, traders, (good bow MPs have a lot higher than 2.8k def rating, more like 3.2). So that leaves you with Engis, Docs, Soldiers, AR Agents.

ah yes. forgot about those.

[Marinegent]

to be fair, 2.8k ar is enough to perk anyone except fixers, mas, advs, shades, nt's that blinded you, shield mps, bow mps that landed dazzle, def docs, crats, or marinesold

so all in all it's a fairly viable setup

I lol'd SO HARD

[Lazy]

I lol'd SO HARD

^_^

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Ok, so, based on this discussion, ME is a complete bullsh*t setup when facing evades classes and evades docs <-- I've never seen one btw.

Well, good to get that out of the way.

How about mass pvp?

So you got probably pretty decent burst damage with FA/Brawl/Wrath/SA/couple AI perks

In mass PVP, the obvious advantage is SA. Thats undeniable.

I guess it depends on how you want to play.

[Meira]

evades docs <-- I've never seen one btw.

That's because you're on RK2.

Doctors reach, just about 3000 dodge, without towers, in a full [You know, like, you're not trying to mix health and evades like a retard] setup, but, I believe, much less evade. I'd say 2800 or under evade. Unless you keep swap armor around for melee.

Generally, a setup like that may end up with more attack rating, due to Sharpshooters rather than the "trololol nothing else but health" items like Leo's boots, or Kegern's or Jathos Molybdenum.

[Obtena]

I would think that in mass PVP, your best bet as any profession is to stick with their strengths. It's not like a keeper with ME instead of 2HE is going to tip the tides in favour of your side anyways.

That being said, the point here is probably "What else do keepers do in mass PVP other than aura totem?". Not much really. Anti-fear, a lame AS here and there? I really don't think SA on ME makes up for that or is even better than what keepers can do now, so it's hard to promote that avenue for 'mass pvp usefulness'. Honestly, I don't get why there is a push for the ME weapons for keepers. MAYBE it has a place at the lower levels but not TL7.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I would think that in mass PVP, your best bet as any profession is to stick with their strengths. It's not like a keeper with ME instead of 2HE is going to tip the tides in favour of your side anyways.

That being said, the point here is probably "What else do keepers do in mass PVP other than aura totem?". Not much really. Anti-fear, a lame AS here and there? I really don't think SA on ME makes up for that or is even better than what keepers can do now, so it's hard to promote that avenue for 'mass pvp usefulness'. Honestly, I don't get why there is a push for the ME weapons for keepers. MAYBE it has a place at the lower levels but not TL7.

pff, totally agree.

I'm trying here, to find some reason that makes it reasonable.

But, I'm also ONLY taking what I heard from midgar, who didn't seem unhappy at ALL with performance. It could be RK1, it could be sheer dumb luck, or being raidbuffed 100% of the time.

But, I know, with 100% certainty, that my keeper is maxed to the effing tits and it performs OK offensively in mass pvp with 2he. The only thing I'm missing is one or two hard hitting perks, instead of a bunch of lame perks/perk wannabes (wrath).

The problem that I have, is that to be marginally or partially effective SOME of the time that a ME setup requires a huge sacrifice for ME AR, AAO just to make it possible, whereas, 2he setups are clearly not lacking on AR, and, while we all know that evade classes are "harder" to kill with 2he as your main source of damage, they aren't impossible. Evades classes, it seems, might become impossible to kill with ME, despite gaining SA.

The only place ME setups might work is with special spamming and being teamed.

[Heresiarch]

*A self-concerned egotist walks into the bar and slaps his floppy epeen on the counter while directing everyones attention towards it, then he continues to ramble on about crit-setups and alphas and how everyone should listen to him*

True story.