Will FC change any pvp level ranges?

[Tanana]

Notum War is about winning. If it helps you win, you do it.

You can win and have fun too you know...maybe if you were forced to use TL5's in TL5 wars yu'd find that out!

[Wrangeline]

It's not genius, it's just sensible if that's an option open to you in the particular scenario. Notum War is about winning. If it helps you win, you do it. If you want to do PVP exclusively for fun, go to BS.

You indirectly just summed up why "your" version of NW is a reason why tl5 NW isn't running much.

Pretty much anything in a game is about winning in some way. Be it NW, BS, solo PvM, raids, farming or whatever. However, nothing in any game is exclusively about winning, because we all play games for the entertainment of it. So how much fun or not fun any game content is, is an important factor.

We now have a "dead" level range in NW (partly) because the "winning"-factor is dis-proportionally large compared to the "fun"-factor. So when people don't get enough fun in NW, they turn to BS and just stay there.

If any game content becomes so much about "winning" that it overshadows "fun" to such a degree that the content is underused, then the balance is off and should be looked at. I know that you personally think that this "all about the winning"-thing is fun for you but this isn't about you (or any of us really). This is about what is best for the game. Whatever the truth turns out to be, is what we all should follow. The only two truths we have currently is what state tl5 NW is in currently and what every person playing the game individually feels about how level ranges works in NW atm. You are ignoring both these points on purpose so far and this is why your opinion at the end of the day can't be anything more than selfish and narrow minded.

Now, you can argue all you want about what you think NW should or shouldn't be but the important thing is if it's running or not. Any content that isn't used is a failure and needs to be fixed. Remember, this is a game, not real life. NW not running is always and will always be a bad thing. You said yourself you would rather have NW never run again than to "punish" people that made tl7 twink-killers. Which is another proof that your views on this situation is nothing but selfish and narrow minded.

So following that logic, you personally think it's OK that tl5 NW should be squeezed down to a tiiiny level range that is something like 140-154? (which is mostly not even tl5) You have accepted and seem to enjoy the fact that 160-199 for example is pointless and you would rather keep it that way than to entertain the thought that there might be a better system out there that could benefit almost everyone (and make NW run more often) instead of a handful of people as it currently is. Remember, it doesn't HAVE to be exactly what Noobius (for example) suggested. It can be anything. The sky is the limit.

I honestly have no idea why I keep writing this stuff though as it's obviously falling on deaf ears. More importantly though, your thoughts on this subject isn't important (as an individual) so there's no need for any of us to put as much effort into presenting reasonable arguments to you as we are. I think the reason we do it though is because it's just mind boggling to see someone so incredibly unwilling to show any kind of human level of understanding and flexibility on an issue, especially when your views don't really make much sense to begin with. The most hardcore forum-trolls could only dream of getting the kind of reaction out of people that you get from simply being serious.

This thread is like some freaky social experiment. I'm proud, perplexed and utterly ashamed of myself to be part of it. All at the same time. I mean, I didn't even enter this thread because I was incredibly interested in any suggestions made here by Noobius or anyone else. I went back and read those at a later time. What got my interest was your strange use of logic and how I couldn't keep myself from picking at that particular scab

I just have to comment when I see logic that is so incredibly alien to me
I'm dying to understand it!

But I never will

[Gridpain]

I just have to comment when I see logic that is so incredibly alien to me
I'm dying to understand it!

But I never will

You ll never die ?

You *are* the alien then !

Sorry, but very recent events have thrown so much irony on this thread... I ve lost hope to see any change.

[Obtena]

So following that logic, you personally think it's OK that tl5 NW should be squeezed down to a tiiiny level range that is something like 140-154? (which is mostly not even tl5)

You seem to be forgetting that the 'safe' TL5 level ranges we have now are actually a bigger than it was before FC extended the laddering rules all the way to 220. While it seems small, the relevance is to compare it to what it was before.

So I think it's OK that the 'safe' levels for NW have been EXTENDED for TL5 by applying the ladder leveling rules properly to 220? Yes I do, thank you very much. There was never any 'squeezing down' as you put it. If you want to avoid TL7 twinks in TL5 NW, you can make a twink all the way to 160 if you want. Before the change, it was 149. My logic can't be followed? That makes two of us then because going from 149 to 160 is an increase, not a squeeze.

[Gridpain]

So you are happy FC changed range at a time ... but dont want FC to change it again now ?

[Wrangeline]

You seem to be forgetting that the 'safe' TL5 level ranges we have now are actually a bigger than it was before FC extended the laddering rules all the way to 220. While it seems small, the relevance is to compare it to what it was before.

So I think it's OK that the 'safe' levels for NW have been EXTENDED for TL5 by applying the ladder leveling rules properly to 220? Yes I do, thank you very much. There was never any 'squeezing down' as you put it. If you want to avoid TL7 twinks in TL5 NW, you can make a twink all the way to 160 if you want. Before the change, it was 149. My logic can't be followed? That makes two of us then because going from 149 to 160 is an increase, not a squeeze.

What the ranges were before is obviously completely unimportant, which is why I wasn't referring to them. What is important is what NW is like now and what can be done to improve it now. There's just no reason why I would refer to the old PvP ranges.

The "squeezing down" that I'm referring to is partly your view versus the view of most other people in this thread. These other people, myself included, want higher levels than 160 to be viable in pre-tl7-NW, while you want people to stay below 160. So what I mean is that you want it squeezed down from what other people want.

However, and more importantly, I am referring to the fact that 160-174 NW was EXTREMELY popular on RK1 for YEARS (and a lot of fun, even if AO had few people playing it), because it was very active. Back then we didn't have 214 and 207 twinks. Now it has been squeezed down to sub-160 because of all the tl7 twinks.

So no, it has nothing to do with the old 150-220 level range. And yes, it has been squeezed down.

[Tanana]

So in talking about TL5 NW in order to argue that ranges have already been improved you write:

Before the change, it was 149. My logic can't be followed? That makes two of us then because going from 149 to 160 is an increase, not a squeeze.

So your basically saying that before the level changes the only way to do TL5 NW without TL7 imvolvement was to use...erm...TL4?

And you argue that now we can use a whole 10 levels of the intended Title Level range (There are 40 you know!) without TL7 involvement we should be thankful and stay quiet.

The old system of using 149 was stupid, thats why it was changed.

This current system has become stupid...it is going to be changed.

[Obtena]

What the ranges were before is obviously completely unimportant, which is why I wasn't referring to them. What is important is what NW is like now and what can be done to improve it now. There's just no reason why I would refer to the old PvP ranges.

The "squeezing down" that I'm referring to is partly your view versus the view of most other people in this thread. These other people, myself included, want higher levels than 160 to be viable in pre-tl7-NW, while you want people to stay below 160. So what I mean is that you want it squeezed down from what other people want.

However, and more importantly, I am referring to the fact that 160-174 NW was EXTREMELY popular on RK1 for YEARS (and a lot of fun, even if AO had few people playing it), because it was very active. Back then we didn't have 214 and 207 twinks. Now it has been squeezed down to sub-160 because of all the tl7 twinks.

So no, it has nothing to do with the old 150-220 level range. And yes, it has been squeezed down.

That's just spin. You yourself were telling me it's not relevant what was in the past in your first sentence, then use past priors to explain why it should be changed. OK. Mercenary raids used to be popular to but the game evolved. This isn't different. The fact is that this aspect of the game has also evolved as an improvement by extension of the laddering to 220; it does give more level ranges for players to play within, despite your claim that for whatever reason, it's an irrelevant comparison to make. The squeeze you are referring to is self-imposed by players that decided to ignore obvious risks, not by some mechanic that FC changed. FC gave us an inch, players took a mile. It's NEVER been sensible to roll a twink past 160 for NW, EVER. From that position, if it's induced by players within the mechanics of the game, it's a player-based problem and players have the power to fix it within those same mechanics.

[Wrangeline]

That's just spin. You yourself were telling me it's not relevant what was popular in the past. Mercenary raids used to be popular to but the game evolved. This isn't different. The fact is that this aspect of the game has also evolved as an improvement by extension of the laddering to 220; it does give more level ranges for players to play within, despite your claim that for whatever reason, it's an irrelevant comparison to make. The squeeze you are referring to is self-imposed by players that decided to ignore obvious risks, not by some mechanic that FC changed. FC gave us an inch, players took a mile. It's NEVER been sensible to roll a twink past 160, EVER. From that position, if it's induced by players, it's a player-based problem and players have the power to fix it.

The past isn't relevant. Changes made by FC or by players is though. And yes, there's a difference.

The fact that level ranges used to be 75-200 or 150-220 is just part of the past, that's all it is. These 2 factoids has nothing to do with how things are NOW. The fact that level ranges were different before doesn't have any impact on how things are now.

What FC does now or what players do now, affects the game we play now. The fact that 160-174 NW was so active and fun for YEARS simply meant that FC didn't have to fix anything, because it was working well despite the obvious flaw that you keep referring to.

Now that things HAVE changed (people finally making tl7 twinks) and 160-174 NW isn't working any more, it might be possible that FC finally have to take care of that obvious flaw.

Before they didn't have to. Now that players are taking advantage of the flaw, FC might need to.

You seem to think that players can just fix their "self-imposed" problems themselves (I say self imposed like that because FC created the original problem by still allowing tl7's to own tl5's). Well, if they could have, they would have. And seeing as they wont (and why should they? I believe that mid and high tl5's are just as important as any other level ranges and shouldn't be squeezed out of anything), it falls on FC to make changes. You might think this is unfair on FC or whoever but the fact remains, FC obviously needs to step in if they want NW to be more active in those level ranges. That's all. If FC don't want a more active NW at those level ranges then yes, they should follow your views and leave things as they are.

Personally I want more activity.

[Obtena]

You seem to think that players can just fix their "self-imposed" problems themselves (I say self imposed like that because FC created the original problem by still allowing tl7's to own tl5's). Well, if they could have, they would have.

They have ... you see, not everyone thinks that TL7 twinks are a problem here and those that want to avoid them have that freedom by rolling the right level twinks or organizing their NW in a way to deal with them. Again, you are assuming that everyone sees the world as you do and whatever your solution is, you can't understand why anyone would have an issue with that solution being imposed on them.

You want more activity. Great, but you can't force that on players or assume it will happen by removing TL7 influence from TL5 NW.

[Muckota]

What it's about is what twink killers are doing to tl5 NW.

Speaking of that, why is your 207 not listed in alts in your signature?

[Obtena]

Speaking of that, why is your 207 not listed in alts in your signature?

If he's got a 207, then everyone can go home now. /thread.

[Armus]

If he's got a 207, then everyone can go home now. /thread.

Yeah all the stupid ppl can go home now, bai! I have a level 207 toon.

I killed 1 guy yesterday on my 207 BUFF TOON* and the whole world went emo about it. We killed over 35 (total kills) tl5 with our own TL5 but hey that apparently doesnt count. Wiped them and schooled them over and over. But hey it's the stray Nt I killed on my fixer that everyone is talking about.

Have I ever said I wouldn't use a 207 or that the guys who do use twink killers are doing something morally wrong? No I didn't. I've repeatedly told you kids that gentlemans agreements don't exist. Not sure they ever did anywhere. Certainly not in AO. As long as the rules are what they are everyone is free to play the game any way they like and I have never said anything else. However I have said, as some may remember, that the rules should be changed, to allow for more fun to happen.


Now.. What could be read out of this is that even when the 207 is a super gimpy non twinked buff toon it turns ppl off majorly. I think this little incident showed that with quite a bit of clarity for anyone with a few working braincells left.
It all just proves my point even further.

[Armus]

Speaking of that, why is your 207 not listed in alts in your signature?

I have 3 paid accounts. I just didn't know that listing them all was in any way mandatory.

[Wrangeline]

Speaking of that, why is your 207 not listed in alts in your signature?

If he's got a 207, then everyone can go home now. /thread.

First of all, this is an issue-debate, not an Obtena vs Noobius debate. So don't be so childish as to say the issue is closed simply because one person involved has a character that happens to be 207. That's just pathetic. It doesn't have anything to do with the issue. Especially not since the one you are accusing of throwing rocks in a glass house by having a tl7 character, is actually lobbying AGAINST it rather than being for it like you are. Also, having that said, there's nothing really wrong about using a strategy that is open to anyone if it IS being widely used by players. Pausing and saying "ok.. this is silly" and lobbying for preventing it in the future is perfectly valid. You can't say that people who used SB+OS before OS-nerf aren't allowed to vote FOR the nerfing of OS because they used it themselves. It has nothing to do with the issue at hand whether they used it or not.

But it takes a grown up to see that.

Secondly, many of us have characters at random tl7-levels but never bring them to NW other than to maybe cast a buff or two at rally so we don't have to run back to OA for that. I have personally never seen his 207 fixer do anything other than cast buffs and f-grid at OA grid and then either log off or just stand there afk in case someone needs buffs or f-grid later on.

When it comes to twink-killers, Noobius isn't the problem here. And as I said, even IF he was, it wouldn't matter at all.

[Armus]

Okay. So.. I'm going to do everyone a big favor here and share something.
I have been in contact with FC about this. Not telling who I talked to but let's just say it was someone with insight and influence. The reply I got was that the tl5 vs tl7 situation is indeed considered to be a "problem area" and that in the fufure it may well be changed. However with the rebalancing and the engine being the top priorities for now FC can't say more than that.

There we go. Everyone is free to raw their own conclusions. But I think any further discussion is unnecessary.

RIP tl5 NW. I think I'll actually twink my 207 now. After all that was my original intent. Just couldn't bring myself to do it. But hey let's destroy what little is left. Final nail in the coffin etc.

See you out there! (probably not eh?)

[Armus]

Just one more thing before I exit this thread.

Hands up anyone who would hire Obtena for any kind of job except as a lawyer, politician or bagdad Bob.

Ciao!

[Chereee]

Hehe, same ol' issues.

Coming from someone who had a 207 twink, I didn't like the idea of a lvl-range change because on the surface, it sounded like it would make my toon obsolete. If the choice was to side with TL5 or with 207s, then I feel (from a player perspective) that the status-quo should be respected. It is entirely reasonable for someone to create a character that takes level ranges into account. It is not reasonable to neglect the ranges and then complain about them in hopes of instigating a change for your benefit that will hurt those who did no harm, no foul.

For the health of the game however, I could understand why the company may want to flip the bird to some players if there are more players (right or wrong) who will benefit.

Is it really a choice? Why not find a way to make 207s useful while repopulating TL5 NWs? My level range stance has been to have, for every level, an upper pvp range that is hard to deal with, but not impossibly hard. What would that be for 165 toons? What would that be for 207s? For 190s?

[RedWatr]

Hehe, same ol' issues.

Coming from someone who had a 207 twink, I didn't like the idea of a lvl-range change because on the surface, it sounded like it would make my toon obsolete. If the choice was to side with TL5 or with 207s, then I feel (from a player perspective) that the status-quo should be respected. It is entirely reasonable for someone to create a character that takes level ranges into account. It is not reasonable to neglect the ranges and then complain about them in hopes of instigating a change for your benefit that will hurt those who did no harm, no foul.

For the health of the game however, I could understand why the company may want to flip the bird to some players if there are more players (right or wrong) who will benefit.

Is it really a choice? Why not find a way to make 207s useful while repopulating TL5 NWs? My level range stance has been to have, for every level, an upper pvp range that is hard to deal with, but not impossibly hard. What would that be for 165 toons? What would that be for 207s? For 190s?

o hi there...yeah, remember that argument we had a few times about how this thing you were doing along with others is killing notum wars...well, see, it happened. so forgive me if i dont believe your polished turd of a post. why the hell would we want or even worry 2 seconds over what a select group of game ruining player greifers is going to do with their toon after a change is made? go level it, do BS, who cares, you got your fun out of it already, at our cost.

[Gridpain]

If he's got a 207, then everyone can go home now. /thread.

Dont be ridiculous... Ok, Noobius showed he was a paragon of irony, but that doesn't remove the issue. (btw, how can you get 45 kills out of 8 peoples in 3 fights ?)

The fact remains, level 201+ have acquiered much more power they had at the time when FC changed the PvP levels. And this should be addressed.

Period