Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress
MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds
Personally, I had hoped that MPs would get the really good ability to fill in different roles in a team. I would have liked to see a form of the 'any three pets' idea, that could have made this possible. But in the end, FC decided that the Advy would gain that all-rounder status. We seem to have ended up with being primarily DPS with some extra utility stuff.But advs are? This is exactly what I was arguing against with the new adv stuff.
But given that the advy redesign clearly is supposed to make them capable of filling a role in a team very well, then it does make sense for them to have a 'stance' that is a strong crowd controller too.
And given that the MP clearly hasn't been designed to be that all-rounder profession... it makes sense that ours is more limited. On the upside, we do get to do all of ours at the same time - rather than having morphs that are like 'stances' which allow only one specialism to be active at a time.
The mez pet isn't great for PvP, that's clear.
X
Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).
Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.
Im very surpriced by some of the problems that are being made up there are absolutely no hard numbers on how the mezz pet actually will work, only thing u can compare is the weapons whoch i tried but as ive already been enlightened i did it wrong, ill update that to be correct at a later point
Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
Proud veteran of Spartans
To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.
Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.
While I like the fact that there is a creation bow, right now it is way too bad for me to use it.
The recharge has already been mentioned, this is way too slow. We already have a bad AR and quite low Ranged Init, drastically reducing the number of hits per minute won't help... THis also means a lot less procs.
And why has it Flingshot? With the current recharge, even with Fling maxed you would get one Fling roughly every 30 seconds! And with even drastically lower AR, since our Fling is so low and we have bascially no AAO.
Fling is no boon here, it's a burden. You have to put IP in a dark blue skill that is of no use...
Lower the recharge, use NanoInit for Initiatives, and get rid of Fling please and replace it with something else (a bit higher damage or a nice proc)
I never understood why the creation weapons in general always have to be so slow. We create them with our minds after all, and with MP intelligence, we should be able to think pretty fast :P
For the rest of the document, there are some nice things, and some bad things imho.
It really depends how the pets are designed, because right now, I still don't see why teams should pick us. Our PvM debuffing role has actually been lowered (NSD and debuffs are nerfed for PvM), and our damage will come a lot from nukes, which we won't be able to use when we debuff. Yes, we have more healing. but so have a lot of other profs that bring more to the team, so I again only see damage as a decider, and we won't be so great there I guess.
We still need that unique thing. Maybe Nano regain will be a way, but for that, it is still much too low atm.
My mp doesn't use a parry stick in the first place so no loss there, the nanocost might be an issue now but like Kintaii said things are subject to change so we'll see.All in all I like these changes, I got tired of spamming the same nuke all the time anyway, atleast now I get to use other stuff! (wisely)
To conclude my thought... All this looks to me like a melee crat, with less defense, crappier CC tools but, with heals.
I also wonder how will the parry/riposte work after the rebalance and will there be any point for MP to invest into it. I see lots of dark blue IP sink holes. :'(
Renowned jester of the double AS Tigress
MP in sneak eNSDed me and did about 20k damage in 10-12 seconds
@Camar I'd prefer Fling Shot to stay, since its already maxed on Bow MPs ^^
@Klod Pff :P I'll stay ranged! And we always had problems with dark blue IP on weaps >.< Also those creation bows will give me a lot of IP from a dark blue (reseting AS and saying goodbye to Tigress ofc) But I can see all those ppl who either maxed bow nor maxed 2hb and swap Tigress and nubshield.
Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
Proud veteran of Spartans
To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.
Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.
I seriously doubt riposte will be of any use, but parry could be nice. My only wish for the whole balance thing, is that players will be alot harder to kill for all professions, so we can actually keep mass notum wars going for awhile. That would also mean making the zones stable enough for many players at once. I'm sick of this blitzkrieg stuff. Happy with these changes, on paper. Still don't really have much use for the mezzpet, someone should work on that. Fling shot must go.
Parry could be fairly useful. At least one block is cool enough I suppose. But the important thing will probably be how the chance of further blocks increases with skill.Originally Posted by Means
X
Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).
Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.
Initial thoughts: was kinda hoping for something along the lines of what Adventurers got, where they can fill in "gaps" in the team, as a jack-of-all-trades. I said beforehand that since I've heard it tossed around before that we're the caster equivalent of that jack-of-all-trades hybrid type profession, I wanted to see our flexibility emphasized. Hopefully to the point where we could do the same thing and fill in gaps in the team's make-up.
I'm seeing a lot of nice new toys but I'm not yet sure how effectively they'll make us more flexible than we already are, to the point where that flexibility makes us desirable to teams. My worry is at the end of the day, I'm still going to be soloing on the rare occassions when I actually log my MP on any more.
:E
And what did you people expected? A triple AS tigress? It was obvious that there was not going to be a replacement for the AS for us and you all kept asking for a creation knowing how creations are/work. What you have is what the few remaining MPs here asked for (the others have left or have been banished from this forum)
Instead of trying to solve the AR problems MPs have with weapons you got a placebo that will need lots of changes and will not make weapon MPs happy ever. Weapon MPs will still be asking for more AR with normal weapons. I want PISTOL support. I want more AR at least for the four weapon styles MPs have, 1hb, 2hb, pistol and bow. There are many ways to give us that with a single nano and it is very easy to do and very easy to scale. Lets see if there are also new creations for every title level with future after rebalance.
As for the nuking part, you all know I have voiced against MPs becoming nukers. With weapons and pets MPs should make decent damage (not uber) while still doing its role, that is debuffing. Going all out with damage, thats nukes+pets+weapons, MPs should be able to make an uber amount of damage, in par with most professions. Being able to do this is what would make any MP desirable in teams. After balance I don't see why an MP would be choosed if there is any other profession that can fill the spot with more damage and versatility.
Remember that with such a high nanocost, MPs are out of the game, no alpha and no regular constant damage (nuke damage can't be kept with a high nanocost, specially while leveling anyone with a twink knows how fast nano is drained now and I am talking about twinks not regular casual equipped players)
When soloing encounters the death of pets is already a problem and having a 100% damage to pet will increase it, lets see how pets are "leveled" first before one can say if it this good or bad.
The average defense of the MP is less than before when you make the calcs (sacrificial shielding, creations, parry stick, no evades from procs) so regular hits will much more of a problem.
NSD is dead. In PvP it was already hard to kill any target with it since there are lots of defenses against them. In PvM it was only used in raids where area nukes could kill half the raid. Now maybe an MP can NSD the beast, maybe, but it doesn't matter if the beast nukes in the second 7 or in the second 15, gimps like most endgame MPs are death anyway and out of the raid.
Parry and riposte are IP heavy for MPs, I doubt they can get enough of any of it to make it worth. Specially when it is targeted at melee (have fun people when enforcers, MAs and keepers parry your pets attacks)
More healing is good and I welcome it, specially in the pet part, but I doubt that it will pay for the defense lost and even more important is that to get nanoskil an MP sacrifices life, specially nanomages. Healing is not the answer when you are dead before the healing tic comes.
There are many more problems with this nano document but I am already tired of writing. The MP is becoming even more unplayable and less desirable. Better nukes and more healing are good things but are countered by less defense and weapon damage (that for me is more important for regular and steady damage than nukes, the old MP specialty). Damage to pet is a poisoned gift. The rest of the good things that the document has are just cosmetic or annoying bugs that MPs had for years and was about time to solve them.
Najade has been kind enought to inform me about the way calculations in damage work, seeing as Auno's damage calculators dont work absolutely correctly therefor he showed me the Anarchy Mainframe Calculator which incorporates the mistake and dials it back to what it should be (http://ao.tcdev.de/calc.asp).
In this posts im redoing the calculations with updated numbers regarding the initiatives reachable, taken from my own Mp, calculations from Lainbr in a post earlier although making it a little less so it is reachable for all.
So new calculation numbers will go to:
2900 AR (Based on Lainbr's setup calculations minus some to make it reachable for all)
Target AC of 10k
Initiatives of 1400 (taken from my own Bow Mp setup without scope (With in this case taking the liberty of assuming the 2hb and 1hb can reache a same sort of Melee init)
Crit chance of 10 (Based upon own setup without scope)
Attack rating cap of: 2750 (Extracted from current Beast weapons)
Clipsize for Bow: 50 (Extracted from Beast Bow)
Asp with 88% agg/def bar and proc added in:
Estimated Damage Range: 1348-1348 (3179)
In 60s with a cycle speed of 2s, (1s Attack, 1s Recharge) you would have attacked 30 times. Total damage in 60s would be around 45930 points.
Your average normal hit would be around 1348 points.
Results were calculated at 0.9 times normal and 0.1 times critical damage.
ACs reduced your average damage by around 127 points per hit.
Esa with 88% agg/def bar and proc added in:
Estimated Damage Range: 1827-1827 (4182)
In 60s with a cycle speed of 2s, (1s Attack, 1s Recharge) you would have attacked 30 times. Total damage in 60s would be around 61860 points.
Your average normal hit would be around 1827 points.
Results were calculated at 0.9 times normal and 0.1 times critical damage.
ACs reduced your average damage by around 163 points per hit.
Accuracy with 88% agg/def bar:
Estimated Damage Range: 1408-1408 (4580)
In 60s with a cycle speed of 2s, (1s Attack, 1s Recharge) you would have attacked 30 times. Total damage in 60s would be around 51750 points.
Special attack damage in 60s would be around 3450 points, bringing total damage to around 55200 points.
Your average normal hit would be around 1408 points.
Fling Shots in 60s would be approx. 2 @ 35s, adding around 3450 points.
Results were calculated at 0.9 times normal and 0.1 times critical damage.
ACs reduced your average damage by around 354 points per hit.
Lust of the Xan with 88% agg/def bar:
Estimated Damage Range: 952-952 (1903)
In 60s with a cycle speed of 2s, (1s Attack, 1s Recharge) you would have attacked 30 times. Total damage in 60s would be around 31410 points.
Special attack damage in 60s would be around 16944 points, bringing total damage to around 48354 points.
Your average normal hit would be around 952 points.
Fling Shots in 60s would be approx. 8 @ 8s, adding around 8376 points.
Bursts in 60s would be approx. 3 @ 24s, adding around 2856 points each for 8568 points total.
Results were calculated at 0.9 times normal and 0.1 times critical damage.
ACs reduced your average damage by around 264 points per hit.
Now thats with 88% on the agg/def bar, ofcourse one wouldnt really want to be that all the time so lets check the 0% agg/def bar now:
Asp with 0% agg/def bar and proc added in:
Estimated Damage Range: 1348-1348 (3179)
In 60s with a cycle speed of 2.64s, (1.64s Attack, 1s Recharge) you would have attacked 23 times. Total damage in 60s would be around 35213 points.
Your average normal hit would be around 1348 points.
Results were calculated at 0.9 times normal and 0.1 times critical damage.
ACs reduced your average damage by around 127 points per hit.
Esa with 0% agg/def bar and proc added in:
Estimated Damage Range: 1827-1827 (4182)
In 60s with a cycle speed of 3.64s, (2.64s Attack, 1s Recharge) you would have attacked 16 times. Total damage in 60s would be around 32992 points.
Your average normal hit would be around 1827 points.
Results were calculated at 0.9 times normal and 0.1 times critical damage.
ACs reduced your average damage by around 163 points per hit.
Accuracy with 0% agg/def bar:
Estimated Damage Range: 1408-1408 (4580)
In 60s with a cycle speed of 3.64s, (2.64s Attack, 1s Recharge) you would have attacked 16 times. Total damage in 60s would be around 27600 points.
Special attack damage in 60s would be around 3450 points, bringing total damage to around 31050 points.
Your average normal hit would be around 1408 points.
Fling Shots in 60s would be approx. 2 @ 35s, adding around 3450 points.
Results were calculated at 0.9 times normal and 0.1 times critical damage.
ACs reduced your average damage by around 354 points per hit.
Lust of the Xan with 0% agg/def bar:
Estimated Damage Range: 952-952 (1903)
In 60s with a cycle speed of 2s, (1s Attack, 1s Recharge) you would have attacked 30 times. Total damage in 60s would be around 31410 points.
Special attack damage in 60s would be around 16944 points, bringing total damage to around 48354 points.
Your average normal hit would be around 952 points.
Fling Shots in 60s would be approx. 8 @ 8s, adding around 8376 points.
Bursts in 60s would be approx. 3 @ 24s, adding around 2856 points each for 8568 points total.
Results were calculated at 0.9 times normal and 0.1 times critical damage.
ACs reduced your average damage by around 264 points per hit.
Ive used 1000 as the skill size for flingshot and burst in these calculations, i know they are incorrect, but for all weapons they have been used the same (1hb and 2hb ofcourse not)
A little conclusion:
We will hit about half as many times in full defence than the maximum amount with both 2hb and Bow. Even the Asp wouldnt be possible to get at full hits but will remain way easier to maintain at normal level of hits.
Now if procs would remain the same, landing them would become almost half as often in pvp where we most need them.
Damage compared to the Beast weapons seems to atleast be really fair at 88% agg/def bar, but at 0% the damage stays behind by quite alot. For Asp that wouldnt be to much, but both 2hb and Bow would suffer.
Just to show something to compare it with, here is the Beast Bow and 2hb and 1hb Weapons at full defence with same calculation numbers (see above):
Abandonment of the Xan:
Estimated Damage Range: 1480-1480 (2876)
In 60s with a cycle speed of 2.04s, (1.04s Attack, 1s Recharge) you would have attacked 29 times. Total damage in 60s would be around 46980 points.
Special attack damage in 60s would be around 12820 points, bringing total damage to around 59800 points.
Your average normal hit would be around 1480 points.
Fast Attacks in 60s would be approx. 6 @ 11s, adding around 9720 points.
Brawls in 60s would be approx. 5 @ 15s, adding around 620 points each for 3100 points total.
Results were calculated at 0.9 times normal and 0.1 times critical damage.
ACs reduced your average damage by around 250 points per hit.
Chaos of the Xan:
Estimated Damage Range: 1586-1586 (4335)
In 60s with a cycle speed of 2s, (1s Attack, 1s Recharge) you would have attacked 30 times. Total damage in 60s would be around 55830 points.
Special attack damage in 60s would be around 13027 points, bringing total damage to around 68857 points.
Your average normal hit would be around 1586 points.
Fling Shots in 60s would be approx. 7 @ 10s, adding around 13027 points.
Results were calculated at 0.9 times normal and 0.1 times critical damage.
ACs reduced your average damage by around 476 points per hit.
Gluttony of the Xan:
Estimated Damage Range: 1861-1861 (3764)
In 60s with a cycle speed of 2.04s, (1.04s Attack, 1s Recharge) you would have attacked 29 times. Total damage in 60s would be around 59479 points.
Special attack damage in 60s would be around 12306 points, bringing total damage to around 71785 points.
Your average normal hit would be around 1861 points.
Fast Attacks in 60s would be approx. 6 @ 11s, adding around 12306 points.
Results were calculated at 0.9 times normal and 0.1 times critical damage.
ACs reduced your average damage by around 291 points per hit.
End conclusion:
The creation weapons in full defence would do about half the damage of Xan weapons in full defence. To me that looks a bit harsh, sure they cant be as effective as the Xan weapons but more like 65-75% of their damage
Lil question: Both pet taunt proc and pet aad/aao debuff proc are "Previously: Anima of XXX" It right? >.>
Lainbr - 220/30/70 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - E / Spirals - 220/30/70 Enforcer Solitus - E / Kokusho - 201/22/55 Fixer Nanomage - Equip Soon ;o
Traderbr - 180/0/0 Trader Nanomage - / Kaoru - 60/0/0 Meta-Physicist Nanomage - totw semitwink
Proud veteran of Spartans
To devs: You failed redesigning MPs as NTs with pets. I want my debuffer back.
Dreamer: Basically - I wish THIS much effort was put in to ALL profs rebalance docs.
Kintaii: Genele is more hardcore than you, your guildmates, and anyone else you've ever played with
Anarrina: Trust me, I'm not that scary in real life.
DONT MAKE ME FARM BIODOME OR SOME OTHER CRAPTASTIC SUCKINSTANCE FOR THE NEW MP PET, DOOOOOOOONT DO IIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Make an option of garden buyable but with a nice credsink price like 500m/350m/150m
Attack/Heal/Mezz ...
I HATE BIODOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
oh btw, nOOb shield is going to be 1h blunt now?
Tbh, I expected a big increase in survivability, which we didn't get. More healing ok, but with removal of SoZ and blockers we are actually squishier than before in PvP.
I expected at least some reason for teams to choose us in PvM. This has actually been reversed imo. If we don't do a hideous amount of damage with our pets, I still can't see why we should be picked. Even the situational use of NSD is gone now.
Herlikhan the fierce, will this be a new quest reward in the new pande instance/dungeon?
as it is not VP buyable. pherhaps garden buyable?
Brad L. McAtee / Kintaii
Former Senior AO Designer & Jack of All Trades
(2007 - 2012)
~~ Twitter :: Facebook :: Norse Noir ~~
I'll start by saying that I'm honestly asking these questions, because I'm not following some reasoning and because I'm interested. There's no sarcasm or baiting intended.
JustinSane has worked out that an optimised MP can sustain about 100K nuke damage per minute taking into account nano cost and nano regen. He reckons that you could get up to 200K damage per minute in bursts. I'm not sure how he has calculated this... perhaps he could say something to the details. But it seems to me, that this is a considerable increase on the level of nuke damage we can sustain at present.nuke damage can't be kept with a high nanocost,
Like you, I worry about the lower level ability to manage the nanocosts. But just comparing a few of the nukes to their existing versions... it seems to me that they all get considerably more damage per nano over a given time.
e.g. Frigid Blast used to do 1.45 minimum damage per nano-point. New Frigid Blast (now Wintery Bayonet) does 2.0 min damage per nano-point.
Frigid Blast used to do min damage of 160 and at that level, with a casting time of 3.45 could be cast at best every 2 seconds = 80 dps. Probably a fair bit slower in most situations. Wintery Bayonet does 608 min damage every 4 secs = 152 dps and with a 1s attack time will be instacast in most situations at its level.
You should still be able to maintain a good bit more damage with the new nukes than you could with the old ones. ~35% more damage per nano-point and 90% more damage per second.
How is weapon damage less? As far as I can tell, you could continue to use the same pistols that you use right now without any changes in its performance. Indeed, you'd still have the extra perks and weaponskill available to you from Pistol Mastery being extended wouldn't you?Better nukes and more healing are good things but are countered by less defense and weapon damage
And this document is there for further feedback after all. It's by no means definitive and things will no doubt change right through beta. I'm sure that the Professionals have been arguing for more AR for the MP. I personally argued for more AR for the MP in these forums... though not the +1K AR boost that some people were asking for, which I think it's now clear was and is never going to happen.
We don't know how the procs will change yet... but even assuming they stay the same: How do players have 'no evades from procs' compared to now? Normal weapon users have at least the same stats as before don't they?The average defense of the MP is less than before when you make the calcs (sacrificial shielding, creations, parry stick, no evades from procs) so regular hits will much more of a problem.
I may be miscalculating... but I think that red shield + parry stick builds should see an overall gain in evades/AAD after rebalance, based on what we've seen so far. Could you show your working that brings them out with less?
We knew that SoZ was in line for a heavy nerf - and indeed against the 1HB Shield/Weapon creation option, but including increases on Red Shields, evades buff increases and counting DtP as +20% Reflect, the losses aren't anywhere near as large as I'd honestly expected.
And taking everything into account... even the expected Sacrificial Shielding loss isn't as heavy as expected, considering the massive increase in healing, +190 evades from the buffs, +20% 'reflect' from DtP and of course the ability to cast debuffs instead of being stuck in recharge a lot of the time.
Don't get me wrong... I'm deeply worried by the apparent shift away from debuffs. I find that the changes made to the dmg/init debuffs in particular seem out of order, when you consider that the Doc/Crat Init/Dmg debuffs are arguably stronger in effect and have 5s CD with 60s duration.
I'm a bit more torn on the NSD changes. 7s NSD at 90% def check and 1s recharge... compared to the old E-NSD isn't horrible... and the immunity only happens if you land it of course. But yes... the immunity is still there. Then again, you also have the increased NanoDmg/HealMod debuff for another 10s of nuke/heal debuffing, so it's possible to maintain a decent debuff for a fair chunk of time....
On the PvM side... I agree that timing of the NSD will be very hit and miss... But I also note that FC have said they'd increase the number of mobs we can affect with NSD as a result, according to Justin. And again, there's the back-up improved NanoDmg/Heal mod debuff that may help with a lot of mob effects (though not all).
A bigger worry for me, is that with Dmg/Init debuffs being 33% on and 66% immunity - you end up with bursty incoming damage in PvM... and on the whole, teams prefer consistent damage. Again... I can't see why the Doc/Crat Init/Dmg debuffs can be up all the time... but the MP Dmg/Init debuffs have to be 33% uptime.
All in all, I'm really disappointed by the debuff changes.
I think that a lot will depend on how the pets end up. If they're as bad defensively as they are now... then things like DtP will be questionable gains. If they're as weak offensively, then as you say, they won't be able to provide that base level of consistent damage that will be important.... but FC have repeatedly said that the pets will have defences and AR that are at least the equivalent of players of the same level.
So there's room for hope.
X
Last edited by XtremTech; Mar 25th, 2011 at 19:37:25.
Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).
Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.