Are Enfs Even Going To Be Needed?

[Gatester]

Advs soon.

Can you just say something about adventurers replacing enforcers as tanks more directly, so I can quote it as the dumbest comment of the year? I would love to put it in my sig for the next few years.

[harkness]

I am 100% positive that the devs know that whatever hits test is version 0.1 and that it will need a LOT of changes before it hits live.

Whether they have the time in the schedule to actually make needed changes is another question, but I hope they will.

[Mountaingoat]

Can you just say something about adventurers replacing enforcers as tanks more directly, so I can quote it as the dumbest comment of the year? I would love to put it in my sig for the next few years.

More directly? You said only enfs, solds, and keepers can withstand the damage from aoe pulls. My reply is that advs will be able to as well thanks to high self reflects, coon, and high evades. Does that qualify as the dumbest comment of the year?

[Lackofgravy]

Test that theory of who can last longer in pande pulls. And no prissy pulls! 15+ for 3 mins or gtfo You get 1 doc. GOGOGO!

[Towerblock]

More directly? You said only enfs, solds, and keepers can withstand the damage from aoe pulls. My reply is that advs will be able to as well thanks to high self reflects, coon, and high evades. Does that qualify as the dumbest comment of the year?

Being quoted under Gate's "Dumbest comment of the year" is on par with a drunken teenager posting a fart joke in a restroom of a bowling alley. I wouldn't be too concerned.

[MachSchau]

We will be needed in old school raids where multiple mobs will be encountered. I think AO is moving away from those types of raids and moving towards single boss encounters with tricks.

Also think, how often a raid force, in the past pre-instance, has waited around waiting on an enforcer to show up to tank? Now soldiers, advs, keepers will be able to step forth and potentially perform as well as an enforcer.

[Mountaingoat]

We will be needed in old school raids where multiple mobs will be encountered. I think AO is moving away from those types of raids and moving towards single boss encounters with tricks.

Also think, how often a raid force, in the past pre-instance, has waited around waiting on an enforcer to show up to tank? Now soldiers, advs, keepers will be able to step forth and potentially perform as well as an enforcer.

Soldiers, shades, and MAs have always been able to step up and tank single encounters. Keepers would be fantastic tanks if they could only hold agg, which they are finally getting some love in. And then these new adv changes come along and slap keepers in the face, multiple times, and then throw in a kick to to groin for good measure.

[Obtena]

Depends on what that single encounter is. Leets in the BY? Sure. The Beast? Not so much.

TBH, I don't see any profession taking over as 'best' tank from enfos with these changes. I certainly don't think it will be easy for any profession to use their tanking toolset as easily as enfos will be.

If the complaint is about 'sharing' of toolsets, then that's a reality we have to deal with. If that's a gamebreaker for you, weigh you options and decide if it's worth the cost to play because it's not changing back.

[Dragocze]

I can't really see, what makes Enf better tank for beast then Soldier.
Example:
Soldier: 35k HP 45% reflect aura, 80% reflect tms (50% of the time)
Enforcer: 50k HP 29% reflect (soldier in team - so we need support to tank)
(hp is guessing based on profession documents)

Soldier: 35k hp & 45% reflect = 63,6k hp & +81% heal efficiency to everyone healing Soldier
Soldier: 35k hp & 80% reflect = 175k hp & +400% heal efficiency to everyone healing Soldier (50% of the time)
Enforcer: 50k hp & 29% reflect = 70,4k hp & +41% heal efficiency to everyone healing Enforcer

That's pure math, no feelings. I can't really agree that Enf would be better tank for beast than Sol.

But there is no problem with Soldier being better single encounter tank than Enf. Problem is that Enf is useless in my eyes. It's like inviting lvl 200 friend char to end game raid. Char wouldn't do almost anything for success of the raid. And other people in raid would be probably complaining and eventually left the raid.


I must say that, I've anticipated something else from Enf rebalnce. There was clear that HP would be nerfed so was 100% reflect period of soldier. But soldiers get something from it. They have higher aura (38% -> 45%) and no 0% reflect period after TMS. To be fair we've got snare removed from Ess. But it doesn't make for Ess nerf, Monfo nerf, Layers nerf, Taunt nerf and Rage nerf.


Also we are still dependent of 5 nano skills. Other professions get their dependency removed:
Sol: BM
Tra: MM
MA: MC
Eng: BM, MM, MC, TS, PM, SI
Fix: MC

Also others get nice new nano lines. Look at Advs. I'm not jealous person. But I must admit, that this make me jealous. (Masochist Force is useless. It can be proved with many facts.) Well that's everything, I've had on my heart.

[lainbr]

Depends on what that single encounter is. Leets in the BY? Sure. The Beast? Not so much.

TBH, I don't see any profession taking over as 'best' tank from enfos with these changes. I certainly don't think it will be easy for any profession to use their tanking toolset as easily as enfos will be.

If the complaint is about 'sharing' of toolsets, then that's a reality we have to deal with. If that's a gamebreaker for you, weigh you options and decide if it's worth the cost to play because it's not changing back.

But I see Shades, Soljas, NTs and MAs dyeing cause Enf didnt managed to keep aggro. 18k Taunt on last single taunt is a joke. Btw, this is the only enf nerf i'm really against.

[Gatester]

More directly? You said only enfs, solds, and keepers can withstand the damage from aoe pulls. My reply is that advs will be able to as well thanks to slightly higher reflects, coon, low max health and low evades. Does that qualify as the dumbest comment of the year?

Fixed that for you. Well I cannot blaim someone who does not tank being completely ignorant of how dumb your comments are about adventurers replacing someone twice as durable and that can actually use AOE taunts more than once every 30 seconds. As for the enforcers, you guys have no excuse other than brain damage from an early childhood incident.

If agents who can spam a 10000 AOE taunt every 4.6 seconds and have around 28000 to 30000 max health have not replaced enforcers then how in the world can anyone argue that a 30 second locked out AOE of lower strength on a player that is the equivalent of an engineer without blockers tank APF, Pande, a dozen+ mobs, informant, or any intensive AOE requiring encounter?

[Obtena]

But I see NOOB Shades, Soljas, NTs and MAs dyeing cause Enf didnt managed to keep aggro.

I fixed that for you because you're assuming that's a problem with the enfo toolset when it's not. A good players know how to deal with that. I don't think enfo toolsets should be adjusted for easymode gameplay to accommodate people that are dumb enough to take aggro they can't handle.

[Towerblock]

Fixed that for you. Well I cannot blaim someone who does not tank being completely ignorant of how dumb your comments are about adventurers replacing someone twice as durable and that can actually use AOE taunts more than once every 30 seconds. As for the enforcers, you guys have no excuse other than brain damage from an early childhood incident.

I hate to bring you up to date on things, but some bosses in this game are being tanked by shade+crat combos. I've seen it with my own eyes, several times. 75% of the people I run with do that very thing. My MP tanked mitaar once for nearly 4 minutes without taking significiant damage, while my buddy's crat was rezzing and rebuffing. So, no.. Some bosses, like zods, don't even require that due to interesting bits about pande geometry. You can use wicked ninja skeelz to even subvert most of the mobs around one Zod boss in particular, and tank it solo on 'effective' tank types, because the boss itself is easy to solo without the adds. I know people who farm db1 and 2 with just a doc and soldier combo, because AMS offers the most comfortable downtime between healing cycles.

If agents who can spam a 10000 AOE taunt every 4.6 seconds and have around 28000 to 30000 max health have not replaced enforcers then how in the world can anyone argue that a 30 second locked out AOE of lower strength on a player that is the equivalent of an engineer without blockers tank APF, Pande, a dozen+ mobs, informant, or any intensive AOE requiring encounter?

THAT is a broken model. But I can do you one better. There are times when enforcer taunt tools are broken, and yes... even a non-DPS prof can steal agg from a proper tank when taunt borks.. and it does bork.

I have a buddy who plays a NT that never made it to 220. His damage output is nearly 1/3rd what one can put out at 220. Every now and then, he will fall over dead at beast because he had agg for 2 seconds and took a single hit + nuke combo. This is while really good tanks were taking beast and no adds were in the room. There is no explanation. Once we checked damage logs and his numbers were incredibly far less then the total output of threat even done by the second lowest damage dealer in the group (the doctor) while my threat numbers (spamming imongo and imalice) were far greater, keeping me the sole person who should have agg. The situation is so strange, my buddies NT deaths at Beast are a constant source of amusement to my raid group.

So, witness to events > your opinion. Numbers > your opinion. Reality of broken taunt > your opinion.

I would like to think that someone who's had as much cockpit time as you, would actually be frightfully aware of such things. Before you lay into someone about their lack of enforcer experience, perhaps you should be aware of your own.

.... or any intensive AOE requiring encounter?

My s10 engi can tank everything but bosses, and can steal agg from soldiers and enforcers. When I did need to pop Rho gens, I called my buddy in who had a crat at the time. He and I would let our bots tank.

Icing on the cake, my friend: You are calling people who know about viable offtanks 'brain dead and stupid' while you yourself have bragged about having a 220 MA 'tank'. Tasty bit of irony, there.

[Towerblock]

BTW, for the sake of keeping a forward focus, there are amazing adventurer players in this game, right this second. Give them enough time to master how their future tank tools work, and people will be asking these masters to tank over enforcer tanks aren't nearly as trusted.

Even in current situations in the past, I have repeatedly asked sub 220 enforcers to NOT tank, over letting me tank on my 219 MA. Reason being: its far easier to manage my own tool cycling and heals on a 17k health tank, then it is to heal a sub-220 tank who may not be up to task.

Be aware, this is current standard. You think it wont exist in the future?

[Kopecz]

BTW, for the sake of keeping a forward focus, there are amazing adventurer players in this game, right this second. Give them enough time to master how their future tank tools work, and people will be asking these masters to tank over enforcer tanks aren't nearly as trusted.

Even in current situations in the past, I have repeatedly asked sub 220 enforcers to NOT tank, over letting me tank on my 219 MA. Reason being: its far easier to manage my own tool cycling and heals on a 17k health tank, then it is to heal a sub-220 tank who may not be up to task.

Be aware, this is current standard. You think it wont exist in the future?

Q F and T

[Gatester]

I hate to bring you up to date on things, but some bosses in this game are being tanked by shade+crat combos. I've seen it with my own eyes, several times. 75% of the people I run with do that very thing. My MP tanked mitaar once for nearly 4 minutes without taking significiant damage, while my buddy's crat was rezzing and rebuffing. So, no.. Some bosses, like zods, don't even require that due to interesting bits about pande geometry. You can use wicked ninja skeelz to even subvert most of the mobs around one Zod boss in particular, and tank it solo on 'effective' tank types, because the boss itself is easy to solo without the adds. I know people who farm db1 and 2 with just a doc and soldier combo, because AMS offers the most comfortable downtime between healing cycles.



THAT is a broken model. But I can do you one better. There are times when enforcer taunt tools are broken, and yes... even a non-DPS prof can steal agg from a proper tank when taunt borks.. and it does bork.

I have a buddy who plays a NT that never made it to 220. His damage output is nearly 1/3rd what one can put out at 220. Every now and then, he will fall over dead at beast because he had agg for 2 seconds and took a single hit + nuke combo. This is while really good tanks were taking beast and no adds were in the room. There is no explanation. Once we checked damage logs and his numbers were incredibly far less then the total output of threat even done by the second lowest damage dealer in the group (the doctor) while my threat numbers (spamming imongo and imalice) were far greater, keeping me the sole person who should have agg. The situation is so strange, my buddies NT deaths at Beast are a constant source of amusement to my raid group.

So, witness to events > your opinion. Numbers > your opinion. Reality of broken taunt > your opinion.

I would like to think that someone who's had as much cockpit time as you, would actually be frightfully aware of such things. Before you lay into someone about their lack of enforcer experience, perhaps you should be aware of your own.


My s10 engi can tank everything but bosses, and can steal agg from soldiers and enforcers. When I did need to pop Rho gens, I called my buddy in who had a crat at the time. He and I would let our bots tank.

Icing on the cake, my friend: You are calling people who know about viable offtanks 'brain dead and stupid' while you yourself have bragged about having a 220 MA 'tank'. Tasty bit of irony, there.

So to summarize, if taunts are broken and difficult enough for a 220 enforcer to manage, how the hell can an advy with far weaker taunting expect to properly tank?

All you did was point out that it is easy for non-taunters and non-taunting tools to pull aggro, and when the only thing a tank morphed advy will have is a 30 second AOE of minor levels of taunting, he will NOT BE ABLE TO TANK RAIDS.

To further my point you claimed a shade+crat can tank single instances just fine, now please tell me who would choose an adventurer to tank when a profession doing more DPM and with more survival can tank instead? The post balancing advy tank morph is the same as an engineer with slightly higher def but no pets or blockers, not even heals. Who in their right mind would choose an engineer to tank over an enforcer, soldier, shade, MA, or keeper? Even an NT could tank better than an engineer in a single boss encounter.


How can you continually prove my point but think you are arguing against me Bubba? Also, since I seem to be clarifying this to everyone on the forums, my MA tank cannot tank because it cannot hold aggro despite being a DD profession. I sacrificed to be a tank without having the toolset to make it possible, and that is exactly what the advy tank morph does.

[Mountaingoat]

Fixed that for you. Well I cannot blaim someone who does not tank being completely ignorant of how dumb your comments are about adventurers replacing someone twice as durable and that can actually use AOE taunts more than once every 30 seconds. As for the enforcers, you guys have no excuse other than brain damage from an early childhood incident.

If agents who can spam a 10000 AOE taunt every 4.6 seconds and have around 28000 to 30000 max health have not replaced enforcers then how in the world can anyone argue that a 30 second locked out AOE of lower strength on a player that is the equivalent of an engineer without blockers tank APF, Pande, a dozen+ mobs, informant, or any intensive AOE requiring encounter?

Oh more insults from the Gate man.

I tank with my shade quite a lot thank you, hp is not everything if you have evades. And just fyi friend, I've never said an adv is going to replace an enforcer. Ever. Further clarification, advs will be able to tank aoe pulls as well, as in additionally, not as in just as good. Agents don't make particularly good tanks because they can't hold agg over teammates on single targets because their damage sucks and taunts can't make up the difference, especially with an agents nano situation. And finally, engineers have about a 2k-2.1k def rating with evades and aad combined. I think an adv is gonna have a bit more than that, plus more reflects silly enough with the new changes...

[Blessed]

I had a long rant posted, but I have to sit back and realize I really can't give a rat's *** anymore. I deleted it because no one is going to listen to it anyway.

But, now that my beloved tank is now reduced to the same level as a whiny punk 5 year with a stolen credit card (and in some cases free to play five year olds) that 2 button faps his way into end game gear with monster truck whining force, while powerlevelling solo can achieve the same results my tank did over the course of years. I can add up the total dollar value I put into this game over that period of time and see that the same thing can be done in 2 weeks by said child - the difference sickens me.

The FPS generation has putrified social gaming into a coffin. Am I supposed to be happy about this???

Short and sweet truth about current situation...if wasnt for ppl in this game(90% from my org tbh) i'd be back in retirement in a blink of an eye...

On other posts all i can say enf's got worst outta albatraum and some other instances due to fact every1 and they mom wants ranged prof's so we ended up selling shop food from rk mishes to farm creds for our bracer's purelly cos of fact that we could acctually tank it but ppl want easy mode nowadays...and now its gonna be even worse well get invites in teams only when they will need OST for ely or nasc hexx which is happening even now due to fact they nerfed hexx range so thats pretty much all i get spammed for these days.....but i look on bright side i made 150 nt now on separate acc and use my rusty old enf to ost for him to make cash so all back as supposed to be...atleast according to some1 who makes jokes in FC development office...

All i really want is for my enf is to be TANK not to be just some random dd u call onto when there is no solja's,ma,shade,(insertrandomprofhere) left on lft. So all we are asking is ability to acctually hold agg in any given situation no matter DD output all named above OP'd profs roast out on mobs. Survivabillity ahs always been measure of being good tank not just purelly being best taunter 'cos if u can hold agg on 30 pande mobs doesnt mean u will acctually survive it unless u got proper experience and toolset...and that is how u can measure good tank so i say gief more taunt it wont hurt no1 and leave taunting to ones who are supposed to use it...adv's arent pure and simple...

I'm not best in english so dont blame me for typos i speak trox bttr much then i type english:P,also keep in mind im raging irl behind screen atm smashing my keyboard on desk trying make mango work as supposed to but its not helping much...

[Gatester]

Oh more insults from the Gate man.

I tank with my shade quite a lot thank you, hp is not everything if you have evades. And just fyi friend, I've never said an adv is going to replace an enforcer. Ever. Further clarification, advs will be able to tank aoe pulls as well, as in additionally, not as in just as good. Agents don't make particularly good tanks because they can't hold agg over teammates on single targets because their damage sucks and taunts can't make up the difference, especially with an agents nano situation. And finally, engineers have about a 2k-2.1k def rating with evades and aad combined. I think an adv is gonna have a bit more than that, plus more reflects silly enough with the new changes...

Agent damage is not worse than adventurer damage. Agents can push their DPM to equal or better levels than adventurers. You have no argument.

[Mountaingoat]

Agent damage is not worse than adventurer damage. Agents can push their DPM to equal or better levels than adventurers. You have no argument.

It is worse, unless the agent gets fancy with fp NT and aoe's with multiple mobs around or fp Crat and uses charms. No u.