Quickie Explanation of New Trader NanoSheet (Summary Open to Criticism)

[Bonghigs]

Dear Obtena,

a lot of experienced trader contributed with concerns and worries about the draft. You defend the draft by refering to the dubious draft itself. It's all obvious and we just fail to see it. And this doesn't seem to be enough, now you start with what seems to be personal attacks towards me.

Dunno, but to me it seems you are acting like a troll here instead of a professional. Maybe you should return to your enforcer forum, or continue dancing with the 'nerf trader' squad in the balance forum, but at least I don't need to see another contribution from you in this thread, esp. if they only consist of personal attacks or your awesome line of argumentation.

Thanks a lot,

Yep. I'd quote Ariensky but that post is way too long (;p) and this says it very well.

Obtena, here's the problem. You're referring to the document as a primary source; but the fact of the matter is that FC gave this to us as a draft to get exactly the kind of feedback most of us are giving. Your insults and nonconstructive posts defeat the entire point of FC releasing the documents for public consumption in this draft form. The biggest shame of it all is that as a "Professional", you should already know what i'm (we're) saying to be true... Maybe you missed the memo?


EDIT: I'm all for open discussion and have no problem receiving opinions that are not my own. In fact, i love a good discussion where two people with opposing viewpoints can intelligently discuss their views (even if they both know the other will never cede). Unfortunately, what Obtena is posting is not constructive criticism and does nothing but add flames to a topic many of us are trying to keep serious and on-topic. If Obtena were to point out numbers and potential issues/woes, that would be great. Instead, the majority of what i have seen has been a combination of flames, fanboy-ism and personal insults. This does not seem very becoming of a "Professional" to me...

[Obtena]

I don't feel I haven't insulted anyone TBH but I'm not going to be especially selective with my language to placate people's sensibilities about using the word 'fail' and 'obvious' either. Regardless, let's start over.

There are things I can't discuss directly and I know you won't likely believe me but some of the suggestions I and other professionals have made ARE in the nano document you see here. Notice there isn't 2 NR drain lines. Notice that there isn't 2 AC drain lines. Notice that your skill drains ARE 15 seconds in duration. There are other ideas that the devs should be aware of, which I hope are being given a good deal of consideration for the final document. For instance:

1. Adding a nano damage debuff component to the damage debuff line
2. Changing some of the specialization requirements so they are more inline with the QL of the nanos
3. Reducing the scaling of the requirements on the health plunder so it can be self casted by the appropriate level trader
4. Do something more useful with (or remove) pets.

There are more, but I shouldn't need to list them all .. everyone here should be able to think of things as well. The problem is that I don't see too many others making suggestions in-line with the direction of the document. There is little value added by complaining and making suggestions that are relevant for a concept that is not being considered in what is likely an almost completed document. I think FC is WAY beyond that stage.

I'm flaming? I'm being rather careful here. I don't think my discussion is anything close to it. I know I'm not popular because I'm not towing the line, but I see what could be some great things happening to trader profession in the context of how FC is developing the new AO. That's an honest opinion, and it has NOTHING to do with me being subject to traders draining me or killing me in PVP. I've played on BOTH sides of that coin. I've been hurt by and benefited from draining people at many different TL's for many more years than some of the people posting here. I know what I'm talking about. If you feel like you are being abused by me, consider it a nudge in a direction to try to get you to think a little differently.

The problem I have with the majority of the population is that simply saying "I have no defense now and prof X will kill me, please fix" isn't any more a suggestion than flaming is. What is a dev supposed to do with that? That really doesn't register to the holistic approach to the changes happening to everyone. I know there are experienced traders out there and I'm confident that with a bit more objectivity on their part, they can present some great ideas if they embrace the direction of this nano document. Now, if people would get past their OWN ideas what what should and shouldn't be happening to traders as a concept, recognize the direction that FC is taking with the trader profession in this document and make suggestions to MAKE THAT direction better, there wouldn't BE any 5 pages of drama. Do you honestly think that at this stage, even if it's better, a concept a player has for traders will be implemented over the one that the FC devs have devised for traders? The concept is fixed. If something was removed completely, It's REALLY unlikely it will come back. I'm certain the devs are VERY conscious of their decisions to remove these things.

[Anarrina]

Can we please tone this down a bit?

[Plat150]

My trader is 202. So the experiences I have are with leveling through SL and soloing Dark Ruins, AI dailies, regular dailies. Dark ruins would have been so much easier if I could have mezzed the adds, instead I was jumping on top of things and spamming my mezz until it landed, then regained my nano, then jumped down and attacked a mob. I was so upset because despite having Nanite drains I really could not survive well, my healing was not quite enough and a single add pretty much meant death. I was in full CC or CSS as well, so my gear couldn't have gotten much better.

Now without scrutinizing the exact values, I think it will be easier for leveling traders with these changes, and pretty much my only concern is for traders that are leveling or traders that need teams. Soloing end game content is not something I value.



I was referring to tl5.

You cannot mezz the adds, You cannot survive an add. Your healing sucks at 202.

You are a lousy trader. You don't know how to play the profession.

[Obtena]

And we should just throw PvM to the wayside in the process? Really, the issues are alot more diverse than you acknowledge, slyly brushing them under the carpet simply as 'trader drain nerfs'.

I already addressed how I believe PVM traders will either have a neutral or even slight net benefit from the proposal. You can go back and read it here:

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...&postcount=195

[Syyceria]

I know you won't likely believe me but some of the suggestions I and other professionals have made ARE in the nano document you see here.

i strongly believe that 20 professionals that had been on the receiving end of drains/gth/br made lots of suggestions. but i have problems believing that a lot of traders had been around to provide feedback.

[quote]
Notice there isn't 2 NR drain lines. Notice that there isn't 2 AC drain lines. Notice that your skill drains ARE 15 seconds in duration.[/]

"look, we had been so kind to fix the nanos you never use, and nerfed your drains. enjoy."

[Wrangeline]

Obtena, you have said your piece many times over now. So can you tone it down or stop all together so that people here can focus on discussing the documents rather than discussing you?

If people here do not like the direction FC is taking traders, then they need to be able to voice that fact without instantly getting you on their backs.

After all, players play traders because they like to play traders. If players don't like to play traders because they don't like what FC did to the profession then that's obviously something FC needs to know about.

Obtena, this is one of, if not THE most important time in AO's history for trader feedback and you are hogging the spotlight by your repetitive rambling. Please get out of the way. You have said your piece, not let it go. The last thing you or anyone else should be doing at a time like this is telling people that they are wrong in whatever opinion they have. You should know that. Not as a "professional" but as a person, because you are not an actual professional. You opinion about anything doesn't hold more weight here than anyone else's. Getting everyones opinions now is important, so let people say their piece... in peace.

[Manaas]

Tbh trader's need the boost in PVM to be more interesting and useful for teams- this is all being proposed in the nano docs.

In PvP trader's are just utterly borked, annoyed the hell out of a lot of people and weren't very effective unless geared to the teeth with the best stuff ingame - this is being resolved partially and still has some work to be done.

Imo the direction is good so far, trader's just need a little survivability boost in pvp.

[Syyceria]

I already addressed how I believe PVM traders will either have a neutral or even slight net benefit from the proposal.

i'll let the pvm trader that finds himself with no nano after 40 seconds and no health after 50 know that he got a slight net benefit thanks to obtena&co. i'm sure he will be thankful.

[sultryvoltron]

I already addressed how I believe PVM traders will either have a neutral or even slight net benefit from the proposal. You can go back and read it here:

http://forums.anarchy-online.com/sho...&postcount=195

Very interesting OPINION. Just like all your others; full of ad-hominem fallacies, flames, self-promotion and circular logic.

It's about time you got some new material. I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say that I'm tired of reading your OPINION that you present as if it's some sort of divine revelation.


The direction that Traders are going still needs some changes. Frankly, this document isn't quite good enough. I think even FC knows it since it's the only one so far to have been labeled as a draft. Oh hey, I guess posting suggestions in-line with the current document is a wash anyways since it's just a first draft. There's still tons of room for change. I'd be willing to bet that player suggestions have a pretty significant impact on the second draft that we see.

[Wrangeline]

I'm still not going to add feedback when it comes to the specific numbers in the nano spreadsheet. Not until I see the second draft (maybe not even then, tired atm). I'm going to keep my feedback for this first draft on concepts and general stuff and not go into numeric detail.

The first thing I will say is that, while I'd prefer this not to happen, I am "ok" with traders being redesigned so heavily that our play-styles changes a lot. This rebalance is after all not just about "balance" but also a general redesign of things that needed to be redesigned in favor of practicality and enjoyment for both traders and non-traders. I personally don't think the current "direction" FC seems to be taking traders with this first draft is my idea of "enjoyable", at least not compared to the playstyle we have atm. But that's just me.

Right now, traders rely heavily on super-twinking evades/aad and using drains to turn 1 vs 1 fights in their favour, while still being relatively squish when getting "adds" (in pvp). The super-twinking of defense is more important the higher in level you get. Because at lower levels, drains alone can do the job while at endgame, you need drains AND super-twinked defense to do well. IF you haven't maxed your defense, then you wont do well even if your drains land. So it's a bit like this:

Non-twinked traders are annoying but easy to kill.
Twinked traders are annoying and hard to kill 1 vs 1 but relatively easy to kill if the trader has to deal with more than 1 target, especially at tl7.

In PvM we rely on twinked defense and spamming haggler and keeping drains running.

It seems like FC is trying to make the trader more "even-steven". As in:

Less annoying (by lowering the effect of drains).
Easier to deal with 1 on 1.
Given various team-enhancing abilities to compensate for being uterly super squish in mass PvP (2 or more enemies).
Trader is given health-plunder which is good in PvM but makes PvP a bit annoying.

Here are my general thoughts on all of this:

1. More usable mezzes in PvM before 209 is good.

2. Better health plunder that actually does good damage and actually does good heals is good for PvM and some PvP scenarios (like extra DD when the situation allows).

3. The trader pets can be used twice as often. They are actually not completely useless but the reason I hardly ever use them is because they take a while to cast and if I have the time to cast them, I probably didn't need them. Making them close to instant to cast would be good. Especially since they last so few seconds.

4. Our drains being less powerful (by far) (and us losing the AAD/AAO drains) is not a problem by itself but it does become a problem when:

a) Our static defensive abilities are so low. Traders rely heavily on how quickly they can make the opponent so crippled that we can survive incoming damage. As it is right now with peoples perks, specials and attackrating, the current skill-drains in this nano document wont give us a fighting chance versus 1 target, let alone 2 or more. At least not at TL7 (no chance in hell). So if we are to survive in future PvP, we would need incoming perk-dd, specials-dd and such to be lowered quite a lot. I know that in some ways this is happening but that's mostly about FA and AS not "stacking" (which hasn't been a problem in PVP for a long time anyway as people generally don't use FA+AS a lot) and perks being slower to execute in some cases. However, perks already pressed, will land no matter how slow their progresbar is. And with traders lower drains, keeping those perks from landing on us will be hard. The attackrating of people haven't been lowered so we are still looking at taking way more damage than we can handle with these new drains. FC is apparently doing itemization-balance as well and maybe people will lose some attackrating from that but we would lose AAD and evades from items as well then I'm guessing and I don't think any amount of itemization would making people so gimped that they can't rofl-stomp a trader with these new drains. Not unless TL7 traders get to keep all their AAD, while every non-trader profession loses hundreds of attackrating.

b) Haggler not being available for self-heal is a problem with such gimped drains. Having to pass NR-checks on players in PvP WHILE having somewhat un-effective drains, is very tough to swallow. If drains make relatively little difference when landed, then not having a dependable heal for a non-acrobat, non-absorb and non-blocker profession is murder. I don't think it sounds fun dying to someone because my HEAL didn't land.

c) Without being given GOOD omni-directional defense, the lacking power of drains will only be magnified several times over with every "add" we get in PvP. If our drains are being balanced in such a way that we have troubles with many 1 vs 1 fights, then we are just target practice when it comes to all non 1vs1 scenarios. This does not sound fun.

5. With the amount of casting we need to do, the nano-cost reqs are pretty steep. There's good nano-drains but with nanocosts like these, we enter the "so close but so far away" scenarios. Where you often find yourself at lower nanopool because between the 15 sec duration on skilldrains, health-plunders and such, we didn't find room in our busy and obviously frantic schedule to spam nanodrains at all times. I know there are nanoline-specific cooldowns coming to help with that but if I need to keep so many nanolines running in a juggling fashion, then I would like to request 2 extra arms and another set of eyes so I can stay ontop of it all. Anyway, the "so close but so far away" scenario I mentioned is when you have little nanopool and every nano you want to cast costs a bit more than what you have. So we basically run out of nano before we run out of nano if you know what I mean. Anyway, this is a type of change that I would need to test in a hands on kind of way to give proper feedback on. My overall impression though is that making one thing more annoying "higher nanocost reqs" and then giving us YET another mandatory thing to cast to remedy that (nano-drain), is only going to end up with it all being.. more annoying. Still as I said, I gotta try it out before I say more.

6. Low duration and cooldown on roots is in general a good thing. I have asked for this myself over the years as I was SO tired of getting spammed with several minutes worth of roots and debuffs around every turn. Root-timer-shortener-nanos and anti-root stims and such being changed to fit with these new timers is also good. I would normally give feedback on the specific timers and such but this is also something I would like to try out in actual PvP before I comment on it in detail.

7. The 15 second duration on skill-drains is to low. PvP in AO feels fast and frantic but it is actually slower than it feels. What I mean is, 15 seconds may sound ok to Genele or whoever made up that number but 15 seconds in frantic AO PvP goes away like 2 snaps of your fingers. And when you got divest AND plunder with such lower timers, while plunder is so hard to land, and the drains being so "gimpy", and we having so many things we need to cast now.. The duration is too short. I really think you need to raise that to MINIMUM 30 seconds. I'd go for 40-45 seconds myself though.

8. Not having a heal when we don't have a target to cast health-plunder on is so annoying. There are a lot of scenarios I can think of where this is just not a good idea. Imagine fighting someone and barely winning or running away to safety with low HP, now you can't heal at all and if you run into anyone, you die because if you try to debuff them, you die and if you try to heal, you also die because you didn't debuff them. Especially since we don't have any omni-directional defense. Making haggler only workable on other people only adds frustration and doesn't change balance for the better in any way. I just don't understand why you would take away our ability to self-heal. Could you please explain this move? What is the reasoning behind it?

I could go on but this post is becoming longer than anyone cares to read so I'll stop soon.

My overall feeling when I look at this document is basically this:

1. Teaming should be more fun now, which is good.
2. Solo PvM sounds.. ok I guess.. but I'm worried about the nanocost and that we will run out of nano on high HP targets when they run out of nanopool for us to drain. This is also something I would need to try out before I give detailed feedback.
3. Our 1 vs 1 prowess has been kicked in the face, basically, but what impact this has depends on what FC is doing to peoples DD, attackrating and such. Based on what I know ATM, it looks like a kick to the face. I juggle numbers and perfect setups and try it all out ingame all the time so I know exactly how much a TL7 trader has to spare in any situation and based on what I see right now, our 1 vs 1 ability would be.. not good.
4. Our omni directional defense was not only given no boost, but a nerf as well by not even having that 30 second +300 AAD thing running in our NCU any more. This combined with worse skill-drains means our ability to deal with chaotic PvP is.. almost non-existent. Target practice.
5. Having to rely on team support to stay alive is not a good thing. Doing better while in a team is good and it's like that for every profession, but NEEDED a team.. is too much. Especially with how PvP works in AO and the low population. This is NOT World of Warcraft where there are loads of people to team with and you are automatically joined to a team when entering instanced PvP and such. I have played loads of MMO's and I have PvP'ed a lot in all of them. I can say that it's waaaay more likely to not have team support when you need it in AO than it is in other MMO's. Only being able to have fun when people around you are ready willing and able to let you have fun, is not a good thing. I did not make a trader in AO, or a character in any MMO, to basically be other players "pet". If I'm not able to do things on my own, then whatever profession I'm playing is INCOMPLETE. At least to me it is.

Anyway, this is all I can be bothered to say atm. For various reasons I'm really not feeling hyped to spend a lot of time and effort on AO-related things so I wish you all luck and I hope that this works out for you guys.

*Goes back to Rift beta and Global Agenda*

[Cryfreman]

I just find it amusing the 'nerf' Enf's and Engi's got then traders get this.... seems there will be an even bigger gulf between easy mode and bottom of the food chain at the incoming 'balance'

[ArienSky]

Wall of text, read the underlined/highlighted point at least

1. Adding a nano damage debuff component to the damage debuff line
2. Changing some of the specialization requirements so they are more inline with the QL of the nanos
3. Reducing the scaling of the requirements on the health plunder so it can be self casted by the appropriate level trader
4. Do something more useful with (or remove) pets.

There are more, but I shouldn't need to list them all .. everyone here should be able to think of things as well. The problem is that I don't see too many others making suggestions in-line with the direction of the document. There is little value added by complaining and making suggestions that are relevant for a concept that is not being considered in what is likely an almost completed document. I think FC is WAY beyond that stage.

The problem I have with the majority of the population is that simply saying "I have no defence now and prof X will kill me, please fix" isn't any more a suggestion than flaming is. What is a dev supposed to do with that? That really doesn't register to the holistic approach to the changes happening to everyone.

I know there are experienced traders out there and I'm confident that with a bit more objectivity on their part, they can present some great ideas if they embrace the direction of this nano document.

Now, if people would get past their OWN ideas what what should and shouldn't be happening to traders as a concept, recognize the direction that FC is taking with the trader profession in this document and make suggestions to MAKE THAT direction better.
Do you honestly think that at this stage, even if it's better, a concept a player has for traders will be implemented over the one that the FC devs have devised for traders?
The concept is fixed.
If something was removed completely, It's REALLY unlikely it will come back.
I'm certain the devs are VERY conscious of their decisions to remove these things.

Thank you for a constructive approach, see this I can reply to and find holes in; counter-arguing "it is obvious" is impossible
A very nice post, with good thoughts.

The first thing being:
I think it is worth fighting for the status quo of traders being traders, not givers.
That a trader can either buff himself through draining -or- buff himself through draining and pass that -and more- onto his team.

A concept you do not see in other games out there, giving AO a unique advantage. Going away from it will hurt the trader fanbase, and make AO less significant in the blob of "DPS vs. healing" MMOs.
It is a unique and interesting approach.
In earlier posts I have noted down exactly what it is I like about it and why, so if a dev is in doubt why, please ask, and the trader community can answer what they like about the trader profession, and why.

In short I disagree at the point that we NEED to rename Traders to givers..
and on a so fundamental issue, it is a disagreement, not a "we can win you over" kind of thing.

1. Adding a nano damage debuff component to the damage debuff line
-To me this is a bug fix.
2. Changing some of the specialization requirements so they are more inline with the QL of the nanos
-tweaking (a good thing), but not redefining the profession.
3. Reducing the scaling of the requirements on the health plunder so it can be self casted by the appropriate level trader
-a good thing
4. Do something more useful with (or remove) pets.
- To be honest I see the pet as a fun-factor ala Agent holograms, Engineer slayerdroid transference, adventurer leet morphs(could just be a concealment buff). But fine if people have constructive feedback about enhancing them to actual use.

The issues not, or likely touch are:

                              .
 


                           .


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              .         |
          .             |
       .                |
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                     QL 200

X is QL, Y is powerfulness of nano
Which is the general issue with the current state of the game, for every profession.

But actually the issue for traders is this:

                               .
                            .
                .       |
              .         |
            .           |
          .             |
       .                |
     .                  |
  .                     |
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                     lvl 200

X is -LVL- of trader, Y is powerfulness of nano

The issue there being lvl / spec locked nanos in a skill based game, along with a game made to max at lvl 200 continuing with 200 extra lvls (RK = 1 perk/10 lvls, SK = 1perk/lvl -> 20 SL lvls = 200 RK lvls).
Each new or each 2nd SL lvl should have a new nano, is we go by that scaling, but it doesn't, hence the raise in stat-power is disproportionate to the increase in nano-casting power.
Every lvl locked nano makes gaps like this in a skill-based environment.
Hear the MPs complaining of "the gab before we have a new pet", the doctors "..until you can use the next SL heal".
It is profound with newcommers, wondering why it is so, while the established players have gotten used to it..

I hope this is the time for a change, why I think that?

Level locking is bad…using by skill is good. Profession locked items are unlikely. More breed diversity is likely…items may well play a part in this.

Level locks are bad. I still feel that way. Things are not always black and white unfortunately. No matter how much some of us wish they were.
[on the HH@b change]I do not like level locks but there was no other way to remove this from players of that range. I would prefer to have switched it to a pure skill requirement...but removing it based on people not meeting that skill requirement on log-in would produce obvious results in this game.

The underlined counter-argument is not valid when it comes to nanos and re-balancing, hence the "pure skill based system" is approachable.

Why this fundamental issue in the Trader forum?
Because it is dominant with a profession that can raise it's own skill, MPs have the same issue.
Raising casting skill with casting is a cool idea, that makes AO unique and innovative, it should be embraced, and the issues solved, now we have the re-balancing act.

If the developers have something they call "3rd draft", putting the foot down and directly and clearly say "this is the direction we are to take, we will not budge", then sure we can come with innovative suggestions along that line..
But the earlier you are in a decision process, the easier it is to change fundamental things.. then you can talk numbers later.
and what I see in this debate is:
"we like drains as our way of defence", "we like the choice of either buffing our selves with the drains -or- pass it to the team".
The concern is the graph showing no increase in power for several lvls, and topping out -under- the power of other professions. other professions that are easier to play (needs less actions).
Active gameplay -> more damage.
as a philosophy.
Sadly traders are labour intensive -which pays off at lower lvls, both in PVM and PVP-, BUT it diminishes through the higher lvls, when you cast the top nano at lvl 150 and get nothing better, while other professions progress..
you do get -some- progress but mostly it is scarce and lvl/spec locked.

a real specific suggestion: QL 230 nanos.. QL 240, QL250 nanos.. why not QL300?
Take a look at the current Trader nano list. Most lines end at QL 180ish, some of them have a few 200+ additions..
MOST of the nanos, even most of the -top- nanos, 90% of the casting power can currently be achieved at lvl 150..
-that- is the core of the problem as I see it

Mediators are: make a graph of the current drains (trader professionals, would you fire up a google spread sheet please?).
one being: Y: skill/health/nano/AC drain X: nanoskills(sum or average of casting skills)
the other one being: Y: skill/health/nano/AC drain X: lvl (your experience as playing trader, get input if needed..[make a thread asking?] eg. I can cast the QL 24 on my lvl 9 trader self)

when that graph is made, take the purely skill-based nanos and extrapolate (continiue) that line.. make nanos, lots of nanos, continue till QL 300 if you would like..
"OMG traders have 10K nano and weaponskills", well enforcers still have more health..
-also- traders need to drain each 3 minutes!! (I dislike each 10 minutes), that is the disadvantage/catch.. also you can not work without the drains.. having to do a ladder of 6 nano castings before you can use your gun is a choice.. some will do it, for the fame of having a QL 400 gun, others will see that a QL300 you can use all the time is better than one you can not use, because you ran out of nano (mob drained your nano) or the mob deleted your drain (NTs have counter Grid Armor nukes, a profession needs an Epsilon Purge /Foot in the grave perk removing drain nanos from the trader).
A trader with 10K weaponskill is the counter to evade-professions/mobs and the weaponskill damage dealers (disabling them in 15 seconds).

Now mess with the traders nanopool, remove the drain or even Epsilon purge the comp nano, and the drain latter will fall, revealing a very gimp person, with a gun (s)he can not even use (100% OE).

That I think is fair and balanced.
yes I am OK with drains lasting only 15 sec in PVP, if you get QL 300 drains, truly disabling weaponskill professions..
It gives the choice of: vulnerable but high skill, or average damage, but less vulnerable to drains being disabled..

Kind Regards
-Ariensky

PS.

I'm flaming? I'm being rather careful here. I don't think my discussion is anything close to it. If you feel like you are being abused by me, consider it a nudge in a direction to try to get you to think a little differently.

The easiest way to define "insult" is to ask if people feel insulted, if they are, you have insulted them.
When people say "I feel insulted/flamed/ whatever" it is a good idea to stop and listen.
if needed ask "I am sorry, I did not intend to do that, I do not understand what you are upset about, can you explain or give an example, so I know how to avoid it in the future?" rather than the "I did not insult you"-approach.

From what I know about you I think this is your issue: you are the best one at your job.
Quite frankly I think you are one of the brightest or most knowledgeable at your workplace, and throughout your life also.
You are right over 95% of the time, and those disagreeing with you disagree because they do not understand the concept you talk about.

That is psychological conditioning.. and over time it will lead to "I am right, I have proven so several times, people are just too dumb to understand me".
it happens to A LOT of smart people.. sadly.
if dumb people keep bothering, then "I am right, I will not waste my time on you again to prove yet another thing" is a good business plan.
--but you will shun the innovation that way.

Also this is not the average workplace, but an enlightened democracy.
if you think something is wrong, you state and describe teh issue, then it is up to people to reflect and reply.
If you have a good point, it will shine.
.."it is obvious that this is right and works"..
is as vague as it can get..
it is more in line of a dictator than enlightened democracy, because it is dictating a closed line of information -and- reasoning.

One of my favourite debates is Einstein vs. Tesla
On which side I am on, does not matter, but the issue stands:
can one let down his arrogance of saying "my line of thought through 20 years is wrong"?

the good approach would be that of a physics game engine developer I know:
"Sure YOUR approach IS better.. for a time-consuming resource-hugging real life physics simulation.
MINE is better for realtime simulation, by a factor of 30.
YOUR model is accurate, and should I send a space-probe to Venus I would sacrifice the processing power.
But for everyday calculations, even for bridge building, the 21st decimal variation does not matter."

he could have said "My way is better" and for 99,9999999999% of the physics calculations on Earth he will be right.
But he is open for new methods -and- other fields of work.

Send a brilliant idea to Microsoft's .net team and you will feel the arrogance..
"the best" hired in THOUSANDS, to work together.
each and every one conditions through school with "you are right", straight A+

Yet you also have the kinect team and project nathal.
With all of this I am saying: Obtena, you are intelligent but arrogant..
and the intelligent way of handling that is to reflect about it, and deal with it, rather than shun and ignore it.

Thank you for your last post, it is better in structure than a lot of the others, and shows intelligence rather than arrogance.

PPS. Watch the project nathal, it rises the hairs in my neck, because it is a look into the future.
the red queen of Resident Evil is not the future, but right around the corner..
I hope you(all of you) will listen to reason, and not make the error Alice does down the rabit's hole of Umbrella cooperation: releasing a dangerous virus killing off the human species from the face of the Earth..
Listen to reason, even if it is a re hologram or Obtena.

[Gatester]

You cannot mezz the adds, You cannot survive an add. Your healing sucks at 202.

You are a lousy trader. You don't know how to play the profession.

So whose second account are you You can't irritate me by hiding who you are under another account and making such an obvious flame bait.




Some things I still would like to know about are the charm and the actual mechanics for a "good" toon post balancing. The charm can drastically effect pvm, and should not be taken as a small change. For other characters, we do not know exactly how everyone's stats will be effected in the balancing. The effects from drains could be so much more effective, or particular statistics could be drastically nerfed in capability, thus making a stat altering debuff actually revolve around future changes in mechanics.

If traders were to have a weakness, however, I feel it should be high AR professions. Traders need a profession type that is strong against them just like every profession, doctors have alpha professions and enforcers have DD professions for instance. If traders are weak or strong against too many professions, then the profession is either OP or underpowered in that traders either do little to help their side win or stacking lots of traders guarantees wins against most encounters.

[Syyceria]

Obtena said he did some testing about the removing of the aao from the drains and noticed not a huge difference, concluding that the PvM trader will get a slight benefit.

My first instinct was that this is wrong for the PvM trader that loves to kill stuff alone like soloing inf bosses for patterns, loot and fun.

So I went ahead and did some testing myself. What will I do when I fight this mob and would be forced to use the new nanos.

Went to the 215 dragons in Inferno, was a bit sad that Tuq'usk wasn't up, so turned north and began calming the adds around Maychwaham. Found him and, 'q'ed him, threw 2 drains at him. I noticed that I got two more mobs approaching me so I ran down the hill towards the lava, calmed the adds and healed myself with the haggler imagining that it would be a health plunder. Added some numbers in my head and came to the conclusion that I used about 4k of my 16k nano within the first 15 seconds of the fight (assuming our best heal will be castedable by trader with 2 drains up). Nano is important so I figured why not use the moment where I have quiet a bit health to nano up again.

Executing Nano Program: Plagiarize Notum.
Nano program executed successfully.

There's an important line missing inbetween, "You drained 1512 points of nano from the target."

My accumulator procs already deplenished the mobs nano to the point where I can't drain 1.5k nano.

We will not be able to reliable drain nano from the mob we fight.

So what should I do when I attack harder mobs where I need to actually cast nanos to survive, unlike that dragon that I could /afk kill. Drain the adds.

The good thing is that the mob doesn't need 5k+ nano for us to drain and get 5k in return, but it seems like they need a certain amount of nano (not sure how much and how much nanodelta they have). But with just my gimpy 1.5k drain I managed to deplete an add and it takes approx 10-20+ seconds to be able to drain it again, and there's a high risk that we invest 1k nano and not get 5k nano in return. So we have to make sure to bring enough adds.

Draining nano turn mobs into the semi-calm state where they give you the attacked by message and turn into their attack position but still having the yellow wobble around them. But is it guaranteed that it will stay this way after the rework or do I have to spend 1k nano on the drain, another 600 on another calm and another 1.4k to heal the damage he might have done to me, just to get total nano benefit of 1k? That's not even enough for one more heal.

My conclusion is that a leveling trader that does inf missions where he can drain a fresh mob every 5 seconds will not be hurt as much. But a PvM trader that reached level 220 and feels like killing stuff on his own, or is fighting a single endboss with a team/raidforce will not have fun enjoying his toolset and basically will only kill mobs he can kill undrained with an occassional heal on his own. He will be a nano casting class without nano and saying he got a slight benefit is another slap in the face.

[Ciex]

Any discussion with Obtena is pretty much pointless but your point Syy is very good.

Its not only about nano drains but also about lowering dd of mobs via –aao debuffs that is very significant and extremely useful in any pvm situation. That cant be covered by better ac buffs because at some point minimum dmg is reached and those are unnoticeable anymore. Proposed dmg buffs/debuffs are lvl locked to 175. Lower levels get 25/-25, that’s not worth casting so it’s a huge pvm nerf of a class that was already very weak.

Id also like to point out that lower level traders suffer from lack of IPs as their evades and weapon skills are blue. Ive no idea about higher level traders tho. On my 150 trader with close to perfect ip spending (not much more base stats that are needed to equip symbs except for agil/sense for css armor, no body dev, no nano pool) I don’t have much IPs left after maxing weapon skills and evades. My IPs are so thight that im unable to buff myself with evade buff before drains and cant use top hp drain without at last one drain running. My ql 225 shotty is 50% effective before drains, that’s with maxed shotty skill, pretty much the best symbiants and 4 parts of supple based armor. And now drains are told to be nerfed to the point that they may be impossible to cast with so huge nano cost. There are pretty much no changes to nano costs so with drains nerfed more ips will be needed to put into nano (no to mention nano pool). I cant see anything I could give up atm except maybe aimedshot but if its going to be iseful in pvm it will be a must have.

I hope charms will work at last for lower levels could be so much needed additional dd source. Unfortunately its going make pet class game play in pvp even more horrible than it is today. Maybe it should have “not in pvp tag”? .

[Shareida]

Executing Nano Program: Plagiarize Notum.
Nano program executed successfully.

There's an important line missing inbetween, "You drained 1512 points of nano from the target."

My accumulator procs already deplenished the mobs nano to the point where I can't drain 1.5k nano.

We will not be able to reliable drain nano from the mob we fight.

Told you mobs run outta nano in a matter of seconds. Don´t use collapser and they last 10 seconds longer.

[swedoc]

I belive GTH will refill your nanopool regardless of the status of the mobs nanopool, judging from the documentation, but this issue still remains with the normal nano leech nanos.
(seems to fill 10% of pool for 15 hits = 150% of your total pool, take advantage of that)

[Syyceria]

Told you mobs run outta nano in a matter of seconds. Don´t use collapser and they last 10 seconds longer.

I know that for a few years, but I felt it wouldn't hurt to add an example to the "This will obviously not work", makes it a bit harder to argue for people that have a 220 of another profession and think they know it all. I also felt like confirming to myself again that the nanodrain-line will have serious issues and not just base my concerns on my knowledge about the nano drains from a few years back, but as expected nothing changed there...

[Syyceria]

I belive GTH will refill your nanopool regardless of the status of the mobs nanopool, judging from the documentation, but this issue still remains with the normal nano leech nanos.
(seems to fill 10% of pool for 15 hits = 150% of your total pool, take advantage of that)

That's true, I would get approx. 22k nano within 15 seconds, but that's not enough if I need 40k+ each minute to keep drains up and heal myself. And I'm a nanomage with maxed nano pool, other trader will probably get way less than that.