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Thread: REAL sneak attack and Aimed shot

  1. #1

    REAL sneak attack and Aimed shot

    Aimed shot should only be executable while NOT under attack, and target is more than 5m away from you.

    Sneak attack should only be executable FROM sneak and target is within range.

    For PVP and PVM.

    Nerf FA, and this would finally bring all professions back to equal standing.

    Then real balancing can begin.

  2. #2
    sorry, nah, will make high evades profs alot harder to kill as those caping specials are really needed to kill them, advies for example... this will effectively turn them into gank tools, also useless in duels. etc, noty
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Parranoid1 View Post
    sorry, nah, will make high evades profs alot harder to kill as those caping specials are really needed to kill them, advies for example... this will effectively turn them into gank tools, also useless in duels. etc, noty
    er, sneak attack is called "SNEAK" attack.

    if an advy needs SA to kill you, thats good, remove it. Make it only available from sneak.

    How hard is it to kill someone when you are fighting? Pretty hard right? How hard is it to kill someone if they don't see/hear you coming? Pretty easy, right?


    Ok.


    Advies are defensive enough that they shouln't be able to SA you to death while staring you in the face.

    and, hmm MA? MA's are a high evade prof, yet, nearly all their offence comes from SA and AS and dimach.

    and fixer? again, AS, just because you're unkillable and you can't kill anyone doesn't mean anything other than that many profs defence is greater than their offence, which, btw, isn't a bad thing, it just means it's HARDER to gank someone.

    and shade? they use SA too. Crat? yep, most use AS. So, how do evade profs become unkillable? They lose a lot of power too, so, at worst it becomes a defensive stalemate.

    The point is though, return SNEAK attack and aimed shot back to something that is within reason.

    Who ever heard of someone being in a fight and them somehow turning invisible and being "ha ha ha, I'm invisible, you don't know where I am, I'm SNEAKING UP ON YOU" and slices your throat. Sneak attack BY DEFINITION you NEED to be sneaking for.

    Aimed shot, similarly, you need to focus to use, and I highly doubt you will ever meet any ex militia or military sniper who says that he was able to take a pin-point shot while some jackass was kicking his head in.

    Any reasonable conjecture for the sake of argument?
    Last edited by McKnuckleSamwich; Nov 26th, 2009 at 07:44:17. Reason: the obvious needed further emphasis

  4. #4
    And remove cap from AS? Ok
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  5. #5
    This is one of those "nerf everyone else but keepers, waaaaa" with a side dish of "Nerf Advs, waaaaaa" threads, isnt it Mac?

    Have you ever heard of someone being in a fight and suddenly turn into a two headed dog?
    Have you ever seen a 3 inch tall ex mil sniper?
    Oh wait, this is a game...

    Tho, while we are at this. Why cant we backstab people who are not in a fight with someone else? The guy has his back turned, I should be able to. and how can I miss that hit? Im close enough to lick the hair on his back, and I miss? wtf?

    On a serious note: I have a Adv, and I would seriously LÖL if this ridiculous idea would be implemented. /godmode
    Last edited by Soosis; Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:24:07.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    Aimed shot should only be executable while NOT under attack, and target is more than 5m away from you.

    Sneak attack should only be executable FROM sneak and target is within range.

    For PVP and PVM.

    Nerf FA, and this would finally bring all professions back to equal standing.

    Then real balancing can begin.
    And for those who rely on these specials to maintain any decent amount of PvM DD?

    I know you don't understand that, playing a Keeper and MA as you do, but it's far too much of a nerf to Soldiers and Agents (who already struggle horribly to do DD) and doesn't at all nerf insanely high DD profs such as NTs, Engis, MAs, Crats, Shades.

    As for PvP, meh no comment. Let someone else tackle that one because I don't feel like opening that can of worms.
    Last edited by SultryVoltron; Nov 26th, 2009 at 09:46:09.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Racatti View Post
    Just another "nerf adv" thread from him.
    Tho this would make Advs crazy hard to kill. Only Agents and maybe shades could AS/SA us, rest cant sneak from us.

    But I suppose Mac doesnt really think about these things. He has the Quantity before Quality thing going on in here.

  8. #8
    If you fix the specials in this way or any other way, and then balance from there there would be no issue.

    I don't know the OP but this thread isn't anything that hasn't been said many times by many people.

    The argument is effectively that they want it to have a better "flavor" for RP'ishness.

    If as a result defense is too high or certain classes need more DD, work with it from there.

    Backstab should be open to everyone who IP's sneak and should only require you not be the targets fighting target. IE it would be a flanking tactic.
    Just leave it at a higher IP level than the current users and possibly have different scaling such as MA skill.

    Sneak only usable from sneak then isn't an issue especially if sneaking during a fight is worked out.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    Aimed shot should only be executable while NOT under attack, and target is more than 5m away from you.

    Sneak attack should only be executable FROM sneak and target is within range.

    For PVP and PVM.

    Nerf FA, and this would finally bring all professions back to equal standing.

    Then real balancing can begin.
    And when they nerf AS and SA so they can only be executed from sneak, there's another reality check you should perform:

    When, dear Noobastank, did you ever see anyone survive a sniper bullet between the eyes? Regularly? Or when did you see peoples get their throat slit and still fight back?

    No? I thought so. If AS/SA have to execute from sneak to work at all, they should also uncap its damage and make them remove blockers/bio cocoon/30% caps/etc. It should insta kill you, unless you get missed by pure luck of evasion.
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  10. #10
    Cool, take away the only thing shades can do to damage evade profs.
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  11. #11
    Since most of these posts will be removed I won't respond to all.

    @ lupus, yea, absolutely, same with a slice to the throat, it's not exactly easy to survive. However, how good is the armour you wear? would the bullet penetrate? Is your target moving? would you aim at the torso instead of the head? IF you aim at the torso, would the bullet penetrate heavy armour? could the sniper hit less/unprotected areas?

    Is the throat exposed? could you disable movement with a slice to leg tendons, the achilles, the back of knee? or disable an arm, with a stab to the shoulder?

    There are lots of questions.

    Someone made the brilliant suggestion of being able to backstab someone if they were turned in the other direction, and I agree. The point of this is to try to balance out the obvious flaws in systematic inconsistencies. you *should* be able to backstab someone provided they have their back turned.

    FC have OBVIOUSLY thought of most of these things, full auto empties the clip, burst is three consecutive shots, aimed shot requires aiming, sneak attack in PVM requires conceal OR to be undetected until you're on top of your enemy. Backstab is the only one that isn't working properly in PVM, but, I see why it's done the way it is, the reason it's done the way it is is that backstab would ostensibly require concentration and a very solid hit to do massive damage, puncturing organs, and doing serious internal damage.

    I'm not saying nerf this and nerf that because I want the benefit, I stated that clearly with respect to my MA main, who relies heavily on AS and SA to kill. The point of this is to get OVER the inconsistencies that people exploit to gain advantages.

    Do I want the cap on AS removed? yes. Do I want it executable only while not in a fight? yes. Do I think "sneak attack" is screwed up? hellya, show me someone who can disappear in the shadows on a sunny field at noon, and launch an attack against someone else who just second prior was trying to disable/kill him. Do I think full auto is OP'd? no, but, I think the recharge is WAY way way too fast. Seriously, how many rounds do you think you can carry? 50000 rounds is a LOT of weight. at about 40g per bullet thats 2000 kilograms.

    Backpacks and backpacks, it's all retarded! Ok I'm off topic.

    Back to the point, everyone uses SA and AS and FA because they are the strongest capping hits. Should everyone be able to use them? no!!!!!

    Agent should use AS, soldier should use FA, and shade and advy should use SA, but, only when in sneak, and only backstab if the target has his back turned.

    Should the caps be removed? YES! Bring some semblance of real professional benefit back to the game, and, start balance from there.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    @ lupus, yea, absolutely, same with a slice to the throat, it's not exactly easy to survive. However, how good is the armour you wear?
    I would suppose a sniper bullet is often designed to pierce armor.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    would the bullet penetrate?
    Probably, at the close range we fire at in AO, but even if it didn't.. I'm fairly sure that a bullet crashing into the side your head with a velocity of over 2000 km/h is going to stun you. To the point you really won't put up a fight for a while, if it didn't break your neck (or had your skull penetrated) instead of just stunning you.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    Is your target moving?
    Which is why it is possible to miss Aimed Shot after balancing. More evades, more chance to "move fast" enough to dodge the bullet.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    would you aim at the torso instead of the head? IF you aim at the torso, would the bullet penetrate heavy armour?
    Again: even if you did aim at the torso instead of the head, wouldn't it still hurt like hell to get hit by the bullet?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    could the sniper hit less/unprotected areas?
    Probably yes.. through accident or skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    Is the throat exposed? could you disable movement with a slice to leg tendons, the achilles, the back of knee? or disable an arm, with a stab to the shoulder?
    Thing is, hitting the throat isn't the only place you can kill someone with. For example you could hit the heart, or somewhere around the brain, or perhaps a vital organ.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    Do I think "sneak attack" is screwed up? hellya, show me someone who can disappear in the shadows on a sunny field at noon, and launch an attack against someone else who just second prior was trying to disable/kill him.
    I'd say we play in the future. There are already a couple of projects to find a way to become invisible with leads on getting it to work. By the time of 249304 or whatever the Rubi-Ka year is, someone could have had a result.

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  13. #13
    ok.. so, I'm tryingto figure out which way you're leaning on this lups, but from what I can see, you're saying it might be possible GIVEN the tools to disappear.

    Now, I have no problem with that, like, if youre equipped with a "cloaking device"
    (which I think there is one in game, which buffs conceal by a whackload for a short duration), and youre able to "disappear" then by all means, use being invisible to your advantage!

    But, using a conceal device, disappearing, etc are totally different from: I'm going to aim my rifle and pin-point strike you between the eyes while you are brawling/headbutting/slashing you with a frigging airplane wing, etc.

    From a simple perspective, what SHOULD be required to use AS/SA is Q(stop fight), conceal, AS/SA.

    So, in essence, I'd much rather see that a prof has to be SETUP to use SA/AS in a fight. like: max conceal, to meet the check, then, stop fighting, (opponent can still be targetting you), do the conceal check, and, provided you have met all those criteria, THEN you get to use the special.

    The only capping hit which is not OP'd is dimach, because it's on a 10 minute+ timer. only 1 every ten minutes isn't exactly the attack you want to use to wear down your opponent.

    As for FA, IMO, you FA 5 times in 1 minute and youre going to melt your gun barrel, no if's and's or but's. FA should be 1/min max. or 2-3 consequetively, with a 3-4 minute cooldown, or need to swap guns or something.

    All you people who are crying that this suggestion is only a Nerf this or, nerf that thread, try to see the bigger picture. If FC can balance the specials, then we'd actually see some better pvp.

    The #1 reason that so many people complain about AO pvp, is AS, it's used by every wannbe agent and his dog. There is a PISTOL now, with aimed shot! That is by far, the most RETARDED thing I have EVER SEEN. No, sorry, I lied, seeing a advy in wolf morph tanking 8 End gamers, running like a banshee and stopping for 14 milliseconds to get off an "AIMED SHOT" with a Fricking PISTOL is the most retarded thing I've ever seen.

    btw, this isn't a nerf advy thread. there is enough of those. It's not a nerf AS thread either... it's a offer to have the specials looked at, and to see if there is something can be done to make their mechanics just a little more reasonable.
    Last edited by McKnuckleSamwich; Nov 27th, 2009 at 05:02:29.

  14. #14
    Just call it something else, like Surprise attack, or unexpected attack, or brutal melee attack, or something.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    ok.. so, I'm tryingto figure out which way you're leaning on this lups, but from what I can see, you're saying it might be possible GIVEN the tools to disappear.

    Now, I have no problem with that, like, if youre equipped with a "cloaking device"
    (which I think there is one in game, which buffs conceal by a whackload for a short duration), and youre able to "disappear" then by all means, use being invisible to your advantage!

    But, using a conceal device, disappearing, etc are totally different from: I'm going to aim my rifle and pin-point strike you between the eyes while you are brawling/headbutting/slashing you with a frigging airplane wing, etc.

    From a simple perspective, what SHOULD be required to use AS/SA is Q(stop fight), conceal, AS/SA.

    So, in essence, I'd much rather see that a prof has to be SETUP to use SA/AS in a fight. like: max conceal, to meet the check, then, stop fighting, (opponent can still be targetting you), do the conceal check, and, provided you have met all those criteria, THEN you get to use the special.

    The only capping hit which is not OP'd is dimach, because it's on a 10 minute+ timer. only 1 every ten minutes isn't exactly the attack you want to use to wear down your opponent.

    As for FA, IMO, you FA 5 times in 1 minute and youre going to melt your gun barrel, no if's and's or but's. FA should be 1/min max. or 2-3 consequetively, with a 3-4 minute cooldown, or need to swap guns or something.

    All you people who are crying that this suggestion is only a Nerf this or, nerf that thread, try to see the bigger picture. If FC can balance the specials, then we'd actually see some better pvp.

    The #1 reason that so many people complain about AO pvp, is AS, it's used by every wannbe agent and his dog. There is a PISTOL now, with aimed shot! That is by far, the most RETARDED thing I have EVER SEEN. No, sorry, I lied, seeing a advy in wolf morph tanking 8 End gamers, running like a banshee and stopping for 14 milliseconds to get off an "AIMED SHOT" with a Fricking PISTOL is the most retarded thing I've ever seen.

    btw, this isn't a nerf advy thread. there is enough of those. It's not a nerf AS thread either... it's a offer to have the specials looked at, and to see if there is something can be done to make their mechanics just a little more reasonable.
    Here's where your argument falls apart:

    The specials are balanced. Period. AS is getting a well deserved nerf, and we're getting really close to specials balance.

    Sure, some hit for more than others, and some are available more than others, but they are so damn near balanced with the AS nerf that it needs nothing else. Debating semantics of the names of specials is a waste of time. Backstab is a situational tool that works find. Sneak attack is a no-miss melee special that works fine. Fast Attack/Fling Shot are an extra regular hit. People who use these abilities have tools to make up for what they lack compared to AS and FA. Soldiers don't have the perk damage to support a massive FA nerf. Agents don't have the survivability or the AR to make good use of their perk specials. All the other AS whores I don't care about. It all balances out quite well.
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  16. #16
    I actually agree with mr McSam here, both attacks should be looked at.
    ...and they should change the cap and the way other stuff works if they require more tricks to use.

    Don't want to see them nerfed, want to see them changed.
    Even if change without nerf is an unknown thing in these forums
    Last edited by wimsan; Nov 27th, 2009 at 09:12:06.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    As for FA, IMO, you FA 5 times in 1 minute and youre going to melt your gun barrel, no if's and's or but's. FA should be 1/min max. or 2-3 consequetively, with a 3-4 minute cooldown, or need to swap guns or something.

    The #1 reason that so many people complain about AO pvp, is AS, it's used by every wannbe agent and his dog. There is a PISTOL now, with aimed shot! That is by far, the most RETARDED thing I have EVER SEEN. No, sorry, I lied, seeing a advy in wolf morph tanking 8 End gamers, running like a banshee and stopping for 14 milliseconds to get off an "AIMED SHOT" with a Fricking PISTOL is the most retarded thing I've ever seen.
    #1: STOP comparing Real life to a Game. Gun barrels in AO are made out of fuzzy bunnyrabits from hell, that dont melt even after 10 hours of consecutive shooting <- closer to truth, than what you are saying.

    #2: They ARE nerfing AS. Thats good. Now we wait untill it gets ingame.

    #3: SA and Dimach are slow (yes, even SA). those are not OP even the slightest.

    #4: Backstab is better be kept as it is. I dont want 3 x 100% hit and possibly capping hits on Shade/Adv. I doubt anyone does.

    #5: Aimed shot with a pistol is normal, in game and irl. Theres nothing retarded about that. Fast eh? Its a game. And AS is getting a 3 sec execution time (iirc).

    So, basicly...This thread is full of crap. everything you have said so far is wrong.

  18. #18
    I still fail to see why the AS nerf is such a good thing for balance. Removing it means some evaders will be unkillable by most.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Mereditche View Post
    I still fail to see why the AS nerf is such a good thing for balance. Removing it means some evaders will be unkillable by most.
    With heal nerfs and other stuff, it will hopefully become more balanced. You cant just see AS nerf as a single thign and go "well that, that is not good!". Oh wait. Arent you a Agent?
    Last edited by Anarrina; Nov 27th, 2009 at 18:05:35. Reason: removed obscenity

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Soosis View Post
    With heal nerfs and other stuff, it will hopefully become more balanced. You cant just see AS nerf as a single thign and go "well phuk that, that is not good!". Oh wait. Arent you a Agent?
    In fact, I'm more worried for my engi then for my agent when it comes to an AS nerf. I'm sure FC will make it work, maybe even better than now, for agents.

    AS as always been the balancer for support professions with low AR.

    Just my 2 cents, I can't care less about the balancing. Afterwards, the same people will still be whining on forums, the rest will adapt as always.
    Zirkonium 220 Nanomage Engineer - RK2 - Omni
    Mereditche 170 Opifex Agent - RK2 - Omni
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