Base more stuff on % of HP rather than fixed values - saves rebalancing again later

[Moonbolt]

does it matter if its PvP or PvM .. the functionality of it is the same.
all % based dmg makes health decrease in value the more u get.
its the problem that is with specials already and the reason why some professions are goin for a low HP setup.
we need to move away from % dmg caps and dmg ... NOT ADD MORE.

[Hacre]

does it matter if its PvP or PvM .. the functionality of it is the same.
all % based dmg makes health decrease in value the more u get.
its the problem that is with specials already and the reason why some professions are goin for a low HP setup.
we need to move away from % dmg caps and dmg ... NOT ADD MORE.

Yep. It's a silly mechanic, FC should look at doing away with it completely as that fits directly into any rebalancing project.

[haide]

Id like to see it in HOT for basically the same reasoning ya all be bashing it.. pretty much any low lvl twink can get a HOT and be near unkillable, and same math applies for low hp builds ... add a max % base for all HOT's and it be much more likely for people to use the toolset intended for that lvl range, or to simply get more hp ...

To clearify what i mean that would be that HOT would heal for a set amount of hp but have a max of x%. This would ofc only really make sense for hots ... factor in all the things i didn't consider and we still be screwed

[Dancingrage]

@Senare: So what you're saying is you want to try to have the MP Healpet Percentage Heal idea put into play for HoTs as well?

So for a TL7 Short/Long hot you'd be healing (as an example) 466-502 plus 2-3% of target's health? For 10k HP that would actually be another 200-300 HP, for a 20k HP target that would be 400-600. Just the percentage heal, on top of the 466-502 straight heal.

For a 70k Enfo that would be...1400-2100 per tick plus 466-502. Not shabby. A nice bit of assist healing for a raid.

The thing about adding percentages to heals is much like Gatester mentioned, it's probably best to have it be a mixed setup, where it's not just a pure percentage heal, but a straight heal with a smaller percentage added on to it. This prevents it from being underpowered for a lower HP toon while also preventing being too overpowered for higher HP toons.

[Lheann]

% Bases Examples
HOT QL1
5% Target HP per Tick capped at 20 per tick
HOT QL10
5% Target HP per Tick capped at 50 per tick
...
HOT QL200
10% Target HP per Tick capped at 2500 per tick

Doc Heal QL1
20% Target HP capped at 50
Doc Heal QL10
20% Target HP capped at 150
...
Doc Heal QL200
33% Target HP capped at 8500

NT Nuke QL1
10% Target HP capped at 30
NT Nuke QL10
10% Target HP capped at 100
...
NT Nule QL200
10% Target HP capped at 10000

It is a matter that any % based nano tool have to have a cap for their QL so that you have to progress to the better ones.

As for no caps on PVP damage. I played at release with no caps. With todays weapons a no cap PVP system would be instance death for any one. Think about it. Burst/FA combo can hit for what 20k+. How many toons at 220 can take that opening? Ok an enf could take that but add a normal hit and 2 or 3 perks and now we are looking at what 30k+ opening. They see you first you die. That is exactly how it was before the caps came into being. Think about your PVM alphas and then think if anyone could survive that if there were no caps. As much as people think it would be better it would kill PVP in AO if caps where just removed.

[rakhabit]

As for no caps on PVP damage. I played at release with no caps. With todays weapons a no cap PVP system would be instance death for any one. Think about it. Burst/FA combo can hit for what 20k+. How many toons at 220 can take that opening? Ok an enf could take that but add a normal hit and 2 or 3 perks and now we are looking at what 30k+ opening. They see you first you die. That is exactly how it was before the caps came into being. Think about your PVM alphas and then think if anyone could survive that if there were no caps. As much as people think it would be better it would kill PVP in AO if caps where just removed.

Well it wouldn't be so difficult to rework how those specials work in pvp and then get rid of the caps. No one suggested just removing them without reworking the high damage specials themselves.

[Dancingrage]

Then you'd have to rework PvM completely to lower the HP of mobs in many areas because high special damage is basically the wing and prayer some folks have of killing a mob sometime before they die of old age. Then you'd have to gimp perks beyond recognition to prevent instagibbing from perks (The starfall chain alone will kill most folks if un-capped.) You'd have to remove a lot of things from the game and or completely rework them to make them nerfed but not make PvM utterly pointless and longer, more drawn out.

It's a complex mess. Not to say I'm against it, I'd love soloable content that didn't take forever to kill, but this is more implying there's a lot that would need working on to be able to open up PvP caps again.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

The problem is the amount of damage a person can do.

the original damage templates weren't bad, like, when AO first started, without all the AAO, and the retarded amount of add dmg. like, an agent might AS you for 2.5-3k dmg, but, you'd be killing someone with only 7k HP anyway, so everything worked out, normal hits landed, and it was all about who had more specials.

It made sense, then, SL came along, and weapons got bigger top end damage, but, they were still balanced because AC's were relevant, you could be whacking away on someone, but only be doing moderate damage, because people had decent AC's.

Anyway, the AC's and damage ranges on weps these days are completely screwed.

AC's don't matter, damage ranges are so tight that people only really need to look at the minimum and say, ya, ok this is fine. It's like, two HUGE aspects of the game were lost with the advent of AI expansion: AC's, and damage ranges.

Now, it's exaccerbated to the extreme. Min dmg and add dmg are the only things that matter. (and crit on a AS/SA wep). The point being, one of the biggest game mechanic aspects was lost when AC's became complete... Hmm, anyone remember thars armour? it was hot stuff because it had a complete AC set, no holes.

Now, though, there are none of those checks in place.

IMO, what must be done are this: AS, needs an AC check, AND perk damage needs an AC check. this is at least a start to adding in other damage reducing mechanisms.

[XenonDe]

Percentage based damage is a bad thing. It will punish you for having higher HP again.

Percentage based healing, only on perks though, could work. And you actually get a benefit from having high HP there.


Having some healperks with % based healing seems like a good idea. May also balance them somewhat so they aren't OP you at low levels and turn useless at high levels.

[Hacre]

the original damage templates weren't bad, like, when AO first started, without all the AAO, and the retarded amount of add dmg. like, an agent might AS you for 2.5-3k dmg, but, you'd be killing someone with only 7k HP anyway, so everything worked out, normal hits landed, and it was all about who had more specials.

It made sense, then, SL came along, and weapons got bigger top end damage, but, they were still balanced because AC's were relevant, you could be whacking away on someone, but only be doing moderate damage, because people had decent AC's.

Er, what? Pre SL, regular hits and specials were more overpowered than they are now. 10k swings with a Queen Blade anyone? -BEFORE- it was slow as molasses? Everyone had less ACs too. It wasn't uncommon for Agents to one shot people and back then Burst hit for up to 13k as well. Remember the tidal wave of crying when NTs could one shot people just after LE appeared? Well they used to do that, often, and WAY further away than 40 metres, too. There was a point where if you were PvP flagged or in PvP gas and an NT started waving his hands around for ages you ran and you ran and you ran looking for a zone point before that nuke had a chance to go off otherwise Izgimmer's Last Word was about to make you go *poof*.

All this AR stuff and post 1k AR damage template nonsense came in later, as a -nerf-.

I lost the URL but there was an old wiki type site before anyone knew what a wiki was, talking about PvP in AO with much mirth and merriment about how overpowered Agents and Fixers were, Agents because every 11s MINUS SKILL LOCK MODIFIER because it affected specials back then an Agent could one shot most people and Fixers could kill people if in not one Burst, a couple, all the while not being able to be hit by anyone other than an NT because they could /disco in their suit of Grid Armour.

No one is proposing we go back to that but I am proposing that specials get reworked when target = player. There's already a mechanic for adjusting damage when target = player so all that needs to happen is that mechanic gets adjusted or completely rewritten so that HP is a bonus and only low HP gemps can be 30% capped, not one shotted. Like I said previously, sticking the PvP 50% reduction -after- the hard cap on specials so that 15k FAs become 7.5k MAXIMUM and 13k AS/SA/BS become 6.5k MAXIMUM before reflects should be where to start at the very least.

[Gatester]

Er, what? Pre SL, regular hits and specials were more overpowered than they are now. 10k swings with a Queen Blade anyone? -BEFORE- it was slow as molasses? Everyone had less ACs too. It wasn't uncommon for Agents to one shot people and back then Burst hit for up to 13k as well. Remember the tidal wave of crying when NTs could one shot people just after LE appeared? Well they used to do that, often, and WAY further away than 40 metres, too. There was a point where if you were PvP flagged or in PvP gas and an NT started waving his hands around for ages you ran and you ran and you ran looking for a zone point before that nuke had a chance to go off otherwise Izgimmer's Last Word was about to make you go *poof*.

I wish we could see vids of this, its just hilarious lol. "The NT is waving his hands ****ING RUN FOR IT!"

[Moonbolt]

Er, what? Pre SL, regular hits and specials were more overpowered than they are now. 10k swings with a Queen Blade anyone? -BEFORE- it was slow as molasses? Everyone had less ACs too. It wasn't uncommon for Agents to one shot people and back then Burst hit for up to 13k as well. Remember the tidal wave of crying when NTs could one shot people just after LE appeared? Well they used to do that, often, and WAY further away than 40 metres, too. There was a point where if you were PvP flagged or in PvP gas and an NT started waving his hands around for ages you ran and you ran and you ran looking for a zone point before that nuke had a chance to go off otherwise Izgimmer's Last Word was about to make you go *poof*.

All this AR stuff and post 1k AR damage template nonsense came in later, as a -nerf-.

I lost the URL but there was an old wiki type site before anyone knew what a wiki was, talking about PvP in AO with much mirth and merriment about how overpowered Agents and Fixers were, Agents because every 11s MINUS SKILL LOCK MODIFIER because it affected specials back then an Agent could one shot most people and Fixers could kill people if in not one Burst, a couple, all the while not being able to be hit by anyone other than an NT because they could /disco in their suit of Grid Armour.

No one is proposing we go back to that but I am proposing that specials get reworked when target = player. There's already a mechanic for adjusting damage when target = player so all that needs to happen is that mechanic gets adjusted or completely rewritten so that HP is a bonus and only low HP gemps can be 30% capped, not one shotted. Like I said previously, sticking the PvP 50% reduction -after- the hard cap on specials so that 15k FAs become 7.5k MAXIMUM and 13k AS/SA/BS become 6.5k MAXIMUM before reflects should be where to start at the very least.

this...
tho if i remember correctly EQB was 4.5-6.5k regulars and u could make it 1/1 with rage and flurry of blows.
back the the pvp cap was 200-75 aswell...
tho i have a vague memory being killed by 200s before i was 75 aswell.
but yeah.. ive been hoping for a 50% hardcap on specials a loooooong time.

[Lheann]

PVP damage damage caps hit the game before 12.6. 12.0 was the release version. In less than 8 months they had to remove full damage pvp from the game as it was overed powered. So the arguement that release time damage templates were good is just bogus.

Agents had guns that worked to 80 meters and with range extenders you could hit the old hard cap of 120 meters range. You were one hit AS the moment you entered the zone by an agent that you could not see and was WAY out of your attack range.

NT's could nuke you anywhere in a playfield it seemed.

Complete Heals 10K healing fully healed any toon you could build with over 1K to spare. Those 10K FA/AS/Burst/SA special where over powered and instance death.

The road to full damage PVP would require the game be rewrote so much that it would be a new game.

[Hacre]

PVP damage damage caps hit the game before 12.6. 12.0 was the release version. In less than 8 months they had to remove full damage pvp from the game as it was overed powered. So the arguement that release time damage templates were good is just bogus.

Why is it? There was no such thing as MBS and silly post 1k AR templates. No one had the ACs they have now and weapons had much higher damage ranges on them, with -no one- being forced to minimum damage in any damage type.

[srompu]

Not having extensively read this thread, I debump this proposal.

If enough things are based on % of HP rather than fixed values, the amount of HP becomes mostly irrelevant.
In the extreme case, it's the same as giving everyone 100 hp and giving everything integer values of damage.