Building an Anti-Personnel Turret in the Grace time of tower-gas..

[avo345]

I definitely don't feel that an entire team should be wiped by APT. At most, it should be able to hold off 2 or 3 people.

@ Reids: What I posted up there doesn't REQUIRE 4-6 people. If you're able to do more significant damage to an APT, over time, even 3 people can wear it down

As I said, the numbers are purely theoretical, and I'm not sure how to scale it to lower levels, where twinks don't have a chain capping attack, other than maybe agents

@ Lupu:

All the solutions you provide (luring them away, killing with twinks, making sure there are no attackers near your APT spot) require at least one more person to be able to pull it off.

1. No smart twink attacking force will leave the CT to chase someone trying to lure them away
2. Killing with twinks and then using an APT? At this point, most orgs might still put up an APT, but it's hardly necessary
3. What if the attackers are already on the CT cluster? You're going to APT out of range and be essentially useless?


The difference between tower sites and BS is that if you die, you're back within one minute, and the people who kill you have likely moved on. You get a lot of chances to get an APT up, so at least one of them has to work, especially when people are distracted by others. On a tower site, if you're the only person in range online, and you're desperately trying to defend your site, you get ONE chance. Even in there's ONE person attacking your site, not being able to APT in grace somehow means they get a free 15 seconds to attack you - you're not going to survive long.

[Comi]

Err, wait what?

To do an airstrike or orbitalstrike you need to farm 1k VP on your lowbie (I'm sure you know what a royal PITA that is) and secondly you will have to be right next to the APT, in it's firing range, while attackable, to place the beacon.

1k vp is no problem imo, if youre into twinkin and putting effort in your pvp toons.
When I used to atk towers, i always had the os beacon preplanted incase apt'ers came, and if i didnt, its faster to plant it than to assemble a apt so

[elrojo]

I think Lup is right here.

I may be wrong but i'm sure the 60 second gas was around before APT's and Mechs right? The 60 second gas was not around to allow people to APT up in safety and kill people while they can do nothing about it. I'm sure the original intention was to stop people from jumping in and out of supression to save themselves. I dont think it is unreasonable to say that things have changed in the game and that the current situation now has the ability to offer a significant advantage to the defenders when it was not supposed to and to try and even out the score.

Why should defenders even have an advantage? Towers offer a significant advantage to players who can manage to take sites and build them. Why should such advantages be made easier to defend. I think you should have to work hard to keep them. If you can only muster 1-2 players to defend a site then you deserve to lose it. If you want to keep you tower site then make sure you can defend it by having greater numbers, better toons or better tactics or all 3. Not just run in and APT, die, run back APT etc until the window closes. I mean why even stop at running back. Just park 2-3 of your medsuit toons at a tower, if you get attacked log in APT up, when you die log out, log in new toon, APT up. I bet you could do that for the whole time if you were keen enough.

I play in Australian time zone. In this case player numbers are very low. I dont think for me to participate in tower wars i should need 2 teams of players willing to try to PvP. Its hard enough to make 1 team for anything let alone getting a large number of keen PvPers. Conversely I have been on when my org has been attacked and not been able to defend. In that case it was just pure bad luck on our behalf and i guess great planning on the attackers behalf.

I think the 3rd(ish) point of you lose the supression buffer as soon as you start to APT was an easy and effective solution. As well as the Proc in place of the FA, Burst, Fling. All other posts seem to miss the point and all relied on the premise that you deserve to have a tower site, not that a tower site was a privillage that needed to be defended.

[Mereditche]

I mean why even stop at running back. Just park 2-3 of your medsuit toons at a tower, if you get attacked log in APT up, when you die log out, log in new toon, APT up. I bet you could do that for the whole time if you were keen enough.

Attacker can do exactly the same. Put 2-3 of their medsuit alts at a tower site and log them on one by one. They don't need to since APT's or AVB's aren't a problem at all if you know what you're doing, but for some people in this thread this might be of some help.

[CitizenOfRubiKa]

Want to nerf some things, let's try these:

1- Nanite casting TL3 traders
2- 80-90ish agents with SPBs
3- relatively low MR on top end Tiig beaters and chef cleavers
4- 60 second countdown timer when entering active gas. if you in a zone, you should be attackable.
5- terminate any and all OBs when entering a hot field, just like BS

Not many people maintain full ai armor, top end gear setup tl3-4 tower twinks except clans, so giving folks an option of viably defending their fields. The use of an APT helps those without the epeening "I got the best toon" blah blah viable defend themselves..

yes,i want donkey kong kind of game too

[elrojo]

I dont see how attacking, logging out, logging in and attacking will do any good. If you log out the tower loses agg and HD kicks in, by the time you agg again the tower will be at 100%.

Also if you are with less than 3 an APT post 18.1 will definitely cause problems. If its parked next to CT, there's not much you can do. I have seen GA4 fixers complain due to being hit post 18.1 by APT's. They are seriously a problem for a non-meched toon now. Especially low HP toons. 1 alpha is more than enough to kill you before you can say wtfpwned.

If by having one player in the team log out to log in a toon to Mech you are not doing anything different than running out of gas, meching up, running in kill, run out, unmech and then back in, and as Lup said, its slows the killing down considerably and can result in a phail. Dual logging is the only way around that.

If you are saying the APT's do not hinder attackers, and do not benefit the defender then why argue against the fix. If its changed, by the inference that they were useless to begin with, then whats the difference to you if they are fixed or not?

[Gatester]

My GA4 fixer doesn't have acrobat perked, APT's are still no problem for em.

[Lupusceleri]

My GA4 fixer doesn't have acrobat perked, APT's are still no problem for em.

Lol. Of course, GA4 fixers are the norm now when it comes to evades. Everyone has 3k def at TL3/4!

GG.

[Gatester]

Lol. Of course, GA4 fixers are the norm now when it comes to evades. Everyone has 3k def at TL3/4!

GG.

Lol lupus, I was talking about the post above me where GA4 fixers were supposedly complaining about being hit. Do I seriously have to quote everyone when I just want to make a simple point Although, it does prevent people from editing what they say later.

[Lupusceleri]

Lol lupus, I was talking about the post above me where GA4 fixers were supposedly complaining about being hit. Do I seriously have to quote everyone when I just want to make a simple point Although, it does prevent people from editing what they say later.

I rest my case, "my GA4 fixer doesn't have problems with new APT" is stupid, it's like a trader saying "I have no problems with GTHed docs". Hello, yeah, you're stating the obvious.

But the other 99% of us do have problems with them. Big ones.

[Gatester]

I rest my case, "my GA4 fixer doesn't have problems with new APT" is stupid, it's like a trader saying "I have no problems with GTHed docs". Hello, yeah, you're stating the obvious.

But the other 99% of us do have problems with them. Big ones.

I think you and my mom live in the same fantasy world, where I can say one sentence and suddenly this decade long story evolved and I'm somehow trying to cause trouble through the whole thing.

If I say "adventurer's can use heals when they take damage" im not saying, "adventurers are immortal because whenever THEY take damage they just heal it up, while other profs can't do that all the time. Why should they have heals, where are my heals, I want heals, gimme heals!!! everyone fails because they can't repair damage like adventurers can except doctors, who must be even more super awesome because they heal even more damage when they take it. OMG HEALS!"

When someone says "GA4 fixers are complaining about APTs hitting them" and I say "My GA4 fixer has no problem with APTs" Im saying just that, my GA4 fixer has no problem with APTs. When I say "APTs should not be able to alpha kill people" I mean just that too, so cut it the **** out for once Lupus and grow up, this issue with you trying to pick through everything I say is getting annoying.

[Mikenche]

For my part, I think the best idea is for an APT to be extremely overpowered in a 1v1 situation against a player on foot, but able to be taken down relatively easily by 4+ people on foot. Some sort of team bonus mechanic or similar would be perfect. This solves the problem of having an APT hold off a team alone, but still allows an org to defend a tower site against 2-3 people when no twinks are online.

Make APTs vulnerable to flanking (two people at opposite sides). The ones shooting from the backside receive a significant damage bonus against the APT. This way a single person will certainly lose to an APT, but a second one can flank it. Of course, once the first person falls, the second one will lose the bonus as the APT turns towards him. If both sides are intelligent, roughly half of the attackers can get the bonus at any given time.

[Mikenche]

1k vp is no problem imo, if youre into twinkin and putting effort in your pvp toons.

A single LE mish gives about 100 VP, give or take 20 or so. A TL7 character can kill everything in a lowbie mish in less than 5 minutes. Add a few minutes for rolling mishes etc, and 1k VP can be acquired in one hour with good teamwork. Even dual logged on a single computer it shouldn't take more than two.

[Gatester]

Make APTs vulnerable to flanking (two people at opposite sides). The ones shooting from the backside receive a significant damage bonus against the APT. This way a single person will certainly lose to an APT, but a second one can flank it. Of course, once the first person falls, the second one will lose the bonus as the APT turns towards him. If both sides are intelligent, roughly half of the attackers can get the bonus at any given time.

You could just limit APT turning radius to 180 degrees Anything beyond that becomes out of line of sight.

[meatybtz]

Make APTs vulnerable to flanking (two people at opposite sides). The ones shooting from the backside receive a significant damage bonus against the APT. This way a single person will certainly lose to an APT, but a second one can flank it. Of course, once the first person falls, the second one will lose the bonus as the APT turns towards him. If both sides are intelligent, roughly half of the attackers can get the bonus at any given time.

I support flaking and high ground adding bonuses!

Hehe that would be awesome addition to PVP.

[Lupusceleri]

I think you and my mom live in the same fantasy world, where I can say one sentence and suddenly this decade long story evolved and I'm somehow trying to cause trouble through the whole thing.

Err, what? Quite the contrary, I think you have some complex that whenever someone DARES to disagree with you more than once/twice, they're all in a conspiracy against you and trying to stalk you to prove you wrong.

Well here's news for you: if I disagree with someone, I'll say so. I happen to disagree with you more than with others, so yeah, you'll see more posts of mine disagreeing with yours than "usual".

This is normal. Not some obsession to prove you wrong.

If I say "adventurer's can use heals when they take damage" im not saying, "adventurers are immortal because whenever THEY take damage they just heal it up, while other profs can't do that all the time. Why should they have heals, where are my heals, I want heals, gimme heals!!! everyone fails because they can't repair damage like adventurers can except doctors, who must be even more super awesome because they heal even more damage when they take it. OMG HEALS!"

When someone says "GA4 fixers are complaining about APTs hitting them" and I say "My GA4 fixer has no problem with APTs" Im saying just that, my GA4 fixer has no problem with APTs. When I say "APTs should not be able to alpha kill people" I mean just that too,

I'll admit I didn't read elrojo's post carefully enough, so you've got a point there. But I still do rest my case that stating a GA4 fixer has no problems dodging ~1.2k AR, is rather... obvious.

And (disclaimer: this sentence is not related to your current post in any way - so nothing to get worked up over my dear gatester) just to keep things clear, GA4 fixers having no problems with the new APT is no excuse of ANY kind to keep APT deployable in grace time.

so cut it the **** out for once Lupus and grow up, this issue with you trying to pick through everything I say is getting annoying.

I don't know about you, but if there's one thing I hate on the forums, it's making a big/logical/reasoned out post, and then having others pick ONE line and reply to that exclusively. So as a result I try to answer every part (at least aimed at me) of a post. Of course if you dislike that, I'll happily quote you out of context, selectively reply to that, and simply ignore the rest that I don't feel like answering to.

Make APTs vulnerable to flanking (two people at opposite sides). The ones shooting from the backside receive a significant damage bonus against the APT. This way a single person will certainly lose to an APT, but a second one can flank it. Of course, once the first person falls, the second one will lose the bonus as the APT turns towards him. If both sides are intelligent, roughly half of the attackers can get the bonus at any given time.

I approve of this message. Should bring some very interesting tactics into NW, and to boot it will discourage blobwars even more which is good.

But I rest my case, I still dislike APT in grace.

[Escritores]

The thing to remember is this:
its an anti PERSONNEL turrent
It was meant to deal with this situation itself and since it's inception, it has brought some balance to tower wars, especially in the tl3-4 arena

Balance? How in gods name is logging on a stripped char vs. a char that's spent 2 bill on and being able to alpha it balance? It's the exact opporsit... It's retarded at best...

Want to nerf some things, let's try these:

1- Nanite casting TL3 traders
2- 80-90ish agents with SPBs
3- relatively low MR on top end Tiig beaters and chef cleavers
4- 60 second countdown timer when entering active gas. if you in a zone, you should be attackable.
5- terminate any and all OBs when entering a hot field, just like BS

1: They can cast it because they spent time and creds on their prof, there's ways to get around it and deal with it..
2: See above..
3: See above..
4: Defenders can run out the zone as well so point mute...
5: BS terminates all buffs, not just OBs point mute...

Not many people maintain full ai armor, top end gear setup tl3-4 tower twinks except clans, so giving folks an option of viably defending their fields. The use of an APT helps those without the epeening "I got the best toon" blah blah viable defend themselves.

This opinion is based on experience, not just conjecture

Case in point: Clans attacking the TL3 field my org held every day as soon as it went hot this past week. Use of the APT helped those available at the time of these attacks (12amish GMT -6 time) be able to defend to the field during the entire 6 hours the field was hot.
5 out of 6 days, these long drawn battles occurred, which consisted mainly of the clans running in and out of the field before the grace period expired, only wanting to engage those on foot or alone, mainly pvm players(insert "boost your epeening ego here") but will run like mad when a player that is truly a pvper come after them in defense.

So basicly in short terms what your saying is because noone in your org is willing to spend any time/creds making a twink (which is what makes this MMO stand out more than others) you should have a easy way out? Ummm no...
I've attacked you a few times and there have been none to quote you "truly a pvper" from your org there, there has been from other orgs, but if they stop defending you or you don't/won't/can't even make defenders yourself you shouldn't have towers in that ql range... To use a old saying "If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.."... Your reasoning is quite flawed...

Either way, FC's desire to balance things is commendable, but as with some things, everyone can't have their way about things all the time. By far and large, the most efficient way to balance current low end pvp will be the termination of outside buffs when entering a 25% or lower field, then you give every player, pve/pvm/pvp based a fighting chance to engage one another...not a supertwink alphaing everything in sight every 6-15 seconds before someone even gets a chance to get a shot in. This itselfs discourages folks from pvp, since who would constantly want to buff up, run in, get killed in 10secs and do it all over again for 6 hours. This would bring it down to what it needs to be, skill and toolset

Afaik all players are able to get the same buffs be it pvp or pvm, so this reasoning for removing OB's is also pretty flawed... It hardly discourages people from PVP what it does is encourage people to make twinks for themselves... Well some and some not... Again... "If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen..."...



This "We won't make anything remotely able to defend our spot and we wont make any friends to do it for us either..." is ridiculous... If you wont you simply shouldn't own towers in the level range your unable to defend... Having 4 completely unplayable toons other than for setting up apt/avt like certain omni orgs on rk-1 have at lower tl's is utterly retarded...


Here's my opinion remove APT/AVT/Mechs from NW and make them BS only... There you go, problem solved... Seriously though keep them and nerf them, since this problem is mainly a tl3-4 one where the APT's are way off where they should be... Reids and Lupus (WTF agreeing again!!!??????) actually had some rather good suggestions...

[Escritores]

Anyway to quote reids from another discussion about this topic...

I bet 100m creds half the people that have posted in this thread have never done 10+ tl3 NW battles.

[drainbamage]

Why do people keep whining about APTs? Boo hoo, there's one thing in the game you can't throw creds at to win.

The counter exists, mech up or shut up.

PS. It's "moot".

[Lupusceleri]

Lol, nice post Escri... flawless victory tbh. Does Rubi-Ka have a third sun to implode? =/ Or will RK itself implode now?

5: BS terminates all buffs, not just OBs point mute...

Yeah, I actually doubt it is possible, but IF the game could make a difference between which buffs were outside-buffed, and which were self-buffed, having it terminate the outside-buffed ones upon attacking a tower/player near a LC area would go a long way towards making lowbie Notum Wars more interesting.

Reids and Lupus (WTF agreeing again!!!??????) actually had some rather good suggestions...