Friday with Means - April 17th, 2009

[shadowgod]

No more forum pvp in here or I will start replacing your posts with bad poetry.

bump for Means to write a book, "Game Directing Made Easy".

the first free copy should go to Silirironronrononon.... er.. the aoc director

[Falkvinge]

I think Means has already asked people to stop trying to 'win'. I'm just trying to get a response from Means on the concern I listed.. not to debate whether or not there are other places in game that I can level a toon. Please do not derail my question by spamming the thread with a meaningless debate I'd like to get a legit answer from Means.

There aren't OST in sl dungeons, if you want to level the old slow way with a team you can always go there, no ?
I don't understand why everyone seems to use the hecks as a concern to blame people who use a OST since hecks aren't the only kind of mobs that give xp if you kill them.

The only reason why people kill hecks is because they want to powerlevel. You can't blame their playstyle because if you're out to kill hecks in ely, then your desire is to powerlevel as fast as them as well.
-
You don't want to powerlevel and want to learn the profession you're playing? Try out the sl dungeons... (Tinker Tower for example)

[Hacre]

There aren't OST in sl dungeons, if you want to level the old slow way with a team you can always go there, no ?
I don't understand why everyone seems to use the hecks as a concern to blame people who use a OST since hecks aren't the only kind of mobs that give xp if you kill them.

The only reason why people kill hecks is because they want to powerlevel. You can't blame their playstyle because if you're out to kill hecks in ely, then your desire is to powerlevel as fast as them as well.
-
You don't want to powerlevel and want to learn the profession you're playing? Try out the sl dungeons... (Tinker Tower for example)

This. I've often gone to various dungeons in SL when I'm lacking a team to level with.

[Hacre]

I think Means has already asked people to stop trying to 'win'. I'm just trying to get a response from Means on the concern I listed.. not to debate whether or not there are other places in game that I can level a toon. Please do not derail my question by spamming the thread with a meaningless debate I'd like to get a legit answer from Means.

Well, not aiming for competition or trying to "win" here, the points made in response to your question, as well as my reply to Means also being relevant to your question, are valid ones.

You can't "fix" the "problem" of OST/kite teams, until you fix the issue that encourages them to be there. It's known as putting the cart before the horse and it doesn't work.

I mean look at it. From 40-60 you kill the same mob over and over again. From 60-100 you kill the same mob over and over again. From 100-160 in most cases, you kill the same mob over and over again. This is repetitive. This is not fun. This is why people want it the hell out of the way as soon as humanly possible because it is tedious and boring. I mean look at it. For the MAJORITY of your leveling time, you're killing ugly, boring and predictable rocks. Then for the rest of it, you're killing predictable and boring sided mobs/dryads/vortexoids/malahs/hiathlins/shadows/weavers, not a SINGLE one of which, you haven't encountered with a smaller health bar, by the time you've passed level 20.

Fix this, offer alternative leveling options in the Scheol, Ado and Penumbra zones and you'll suddenly find yourselves bitching about OST and Kite teams much less, without any mechanic changes made to vanquish them.

If you put a better carrot on the stick, no one is going to miss the old carrot. If you just remove the carrot and put nothing better and juicier to replace it then they will and won't be happy. Unhappy people don't fork over their money.

[Hacre]

Not to be a jerk, but the only relevant answer to my question would have to come from Means. I can debate this topic in-game or elsewhere on forums if I'm interested in player opinions. So all I'm asking is that if you're responding to me, please don't bother because I've heard the debate before.. just looking for a reply from MEANS. Thank you for your consideration, however. I'm not trying to be rude.. I know that we all care a lot about the game.

Then take it to PMs. This is a public forum, where properly constructed opinions and thoughts on the matter, especially THIS matter, one that affects everyone, have every right to be aired.

[shadowgod]

Then take it to PMs. This is a public forum, where properly constructed opinions and thoughts on the matter, especially THIS matter, one that affects everyone, have every right to be aired.

i agree. dont make comments on forums if you dont want people to comment on them.

[Traderjill]

i agree. dont make comments on forums if you dont want people to comment on them.

Fair enough.. I deleted my posts. I misunderstood the purpose of this forum area. Carry on

[IHaveHugeNick]

pointless forums pvp

Stop trying to kill AO.

Now on the serious note, you know, when debating leveling issues, there will always be a conflict between old and completely new players.

If you were launching this game tommorow, doing hecklers and hecklers and hecklers and hecklers and hecklers would make every subscriber cancel after first month and never come back again. But you're not launching it tommorow.

Most of us are leveling our 3937493473th 220 and we couldn't care less about missing half of the game, because we've already seen it all. For a player is settled long enough, figuring out how to play any profession on the level that would be good enough for inferno missions is a matter of 20 minutes. The rest of leveling process can just as well be done AFK, and that would be prefered form.

There is no easy way of solving this dilemma.

[Ebondevil]

There is no easy way of solving this dilemma.

Well fixing Adonis missions so they're easier to get to and more rewarding would help.

Fixing Penumbra missions to be more rewarding would help as well.

Fixing Solo Shadowlands missions so you can change the difficulty settings on them might also help.

And finally adding in SL missions to Ely and/or Scheol might help as well.

Hell, Any alternative leveling that gives a good rate of return for the effort spent on it would be good.

But hey, that's my 2 cents, and if done right then there would be no need whatsoever to change the way Hecks work.

[IHaveHugeNick]

You are saying that as if "fixing" was a simple thing to do. Some adjustments are possible, yeah , but the general rule is, players will go where the best xp/hour is.

Especially if you realise ely/ado/pen/inf are a grey area that players of any level can access. Just level locking them wont change a thing. You need changes that go a lot deeper into the system. For example i would wonder if changing the scaling for levels 125-200 isnt a bad idea, there is no need to keep the hardcore pre-SL scaling on them after shadowlevels where added.

AO reached a point in time when the ( common for most MMOs) rule slower leveling=more playtime , doesn't apply anymore. Completely new players are maybe 1% of community. The great majority of subcribers are old players that certainly play more and pay more if leveling alts was less time-consuming. I know i would.

[K1nkstaah]

There's a couple of fixes for this.

1) Grey mobs never agro red players.

Or do what they did in AOC.

Last I checked in AOC, if you attack a monster that is way lower than you, it gains a huge bonus and effectively scales to the attackers level. Which means if you have a pocket enforcer tanking 30 level 150 hecklers, it means they would have the damage and AR of 30 level 250 hecklers.

Arguably if you have an outside 220 enf, and an Outside 220 doctor you could still do it, but in this case you already have a TL7 team working together to level an alt, so you may as well just allow it in that case.

[shadowgod]

Well fixing Adonis missions so they're easier to get to and more rewarding would help.

Fixing Penumbra missions to be more rewarding would help as well.

Fixing Solo Shadowlands missions so you can change the difficulty settings on them might also help.

And finally adding in SL missions to Ely and/or Scheol might help as well.

Hell, Any alternative leveling that gives a good rate of return for the effort spent on it would be good.

But hey, that's my 2 cents, and if done right then there would be no need whatsoever to change the way Hecks work.

i think theres a bit of confusion here. to provide "greater reward" than that of heck kiting... would mean n00bs leveling even faster.

the problem has always revolved around hecks giving way too much xp. reduce its xp to less than that of the not-so-grinding-methods, and problem almost solved. and done with less "fixing".

[zartosht]

I suggested a "Summon level 200 toon" veteran item some times ago.
Would solve some problems.
Would add others.

[Ayria]

I suggested a "Summon level 200 toon" veteran item some times ago.
Would solve some problems.
Would add others.

Maybe something like, you get a toon to 220 and it credits your account with a flag or "token" that you can spend (ie you only have one, but can get more from another 220 ding) that allows you to make 1 toon level 200?

[NoGoal]

FC just need to add other ways to level. Pocket tanks are boring and kiting creates dramas (omg you stole my hecks!!1).

Add missions (not the run back and forth type), instances with ok loot and xp, kill-teh-familiar missions to ely, etc. And while you are at it, make SL bosses drop SL loot.

[Kaylinne]

Or do what they did in AOC.

Last I checked in AOC, if you attack a monster that is way lower than you, it gains a huge bonus and effectively scales to the attackers level. Which means if you have a pocket enforcer tanking 30 level 150 hecklers, it means they would have the damage and AR of 30 level 250 hecklers.

I dont know if its still like that but I remember huge and I mean HUGE complaints. There were threads and threads demanding gray mobs scaling out of the game.

And yet it wasnt really that effective.
I remember helping low lvl guildies with Sanctum... I could still loloneshot every boss in instance without getting a scratch.

[navycut]

Yeah scaled mobs is a lame idea, saw it in a few games and always hated it.

[Castaras]

What is Liquid?

by: Margaret Cavendish, Duchess of Newcastle

All that doth flow we cannot liquid name
Or else would fire and water be the same;
But that is liquid which is moist and wet
Fire that property can never get.
Then 'tis not cold that doth the fire put out
But 'tis the wet that makes it die, no doubt.

Hats off to you sir. You've amused me.

[Ebondevil]

i think theres a bit of confusion here. to provide "greater reward" than that of heck kiting... would mean n00bs leveling even faster.

the problem has always revolved around hecks giving way too much xp. reduce its xp to less than that of the not-so-grinding-methods, and problem almost solved. and done with less "fixing".

While they might level faster, it's not as likely that they'll be bringing along pockets to help them to do so, and as such would hopefully learn how to play their toons better.

As for Hecks XP I believe it's already lower than other SL mobs of equivalent levels, they're good because their level is so much higher than the average for the area they're in, so their xp is significantly higher than the mobs around them.

I would surmise that this is why you don't get Hecks hunting teams in Penumbra, cause you can find mobs of Equivalent level around in missions that give as much if not more xp.

In fact one could argue that if mobs in the suggested missions had lower health but higher damage, then the team would need to use their tools more, instead of just grinding high Health mobs, e.g. Same reward per mob as a Heckler, faster to kill than a heckler, but a lot more dangerous than a heckler.

[Kaylinne]

In fact one could argue that if mobs in the suggested missions had lower health but higher damage, then the team would need to use their tools more, instead of just grinding high Health mobs, e.g. Same reward per mob as a Heckler, faster to kill than a heckler, but a lot more dangerous than a heckler.

That is the problem with almost all mobs, RK missions ones being the most ridiculous.
Huge hp and nothing else. No tricks no hits worth mentioning.
Nothing but pure boredom.
NPCs in this game need some serious revamp imo.