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Thread: A little food for thought on PvM

  1. #1

    A little food for thought on PvM

    NPCs … Why are they so powerful (meaning skills), Funcom? Is it to balance out the fact that we the players can equip implants, use a broader range of nanos and equip weapons well above our level? Or is it because you don’t wish to see the players being able to defeat monsters and NPCs so far above our level and ruin the base green, yellow, red scheme you’ve created? Maybe you fear our leveling too quickly.

    Let’s step back from the question and look at some examples to see where this all leads.

    Example 1.)

    Fighting as a level 115 Enforcer at the time, I had a POD –5 Trader cast a ransack/deprive line on me that required skills of 621. Hmmm, well, at level 115, without implants, my green weapon skills were only about 550 if I recall, and this NPC was at least 10-15 levels below me. Sure, a Trader can ransack/deprive to that level even without implants, but who is he going to cast it on? I’m the only person/enemy in the mission.

    Example 2.)

    As a level 54 Adventurer, I came upon a POD +0/+1 Adventurer. He was using the damage shield Fiery Wrap (305 MC, 305 MM). Well, personally, my most powerful nano skill (using ql70-72 implants) was Biological Metamorphosis, around 305-310 I believe. That included Shining, Bright and Faded Polymorphing clusters as well as BioMet Expertise.

    Example 3.)

    Going back to my Enforcer, this time at level 123, fighting an even-level Metaphysicist. Now, my AMS was about 710, including all buffs and implants (dual Rider Executioners, fyi). How is it that this MP, a profession with dark blue melee skills, can parry as much as 20% of my attacks in a fight. It’s been stated before somewhere that if the defender’s DMS matches the attacker’s AMS, then the player has a 25% chance to evade an attack, so I’m assuming the same is true for the Parry skill. Now, I’m going to assume, that if the defenders DMS is 80% of the attackers AMS then they get a 20% chance. Yes, I know what assuming gets, but let’s just look at the math.

    710 * 0.8 = 568

    Now, looking back at example 1, my green skills at level 115 were only 550 before implants and buffs. How is it that an MP can get a dark blue skill that high?

    Example 4.)

    My Enforcer, level 123, fighting a POD +0/+1 Enforcer mob. Granted, as a dual Rider Executioner wielder, I have less IP to throw around than 2HE and 2HB enforcers. However, these enforcer mobs are casting nanos that require their nano skills to be maxed, if not above the normal (player) max similar to example 2. Now, what Enforcer player out there has the IP to constantly keep their dark blue nano skills maxed every level? Certainly not me.

    Well, let us take a look at these 4 examples, and see what we can derive. NPCs with nano and defensive skills well above their level. Well, the only conclusion I can come to from here is that they’re attack skills are just as high. And what does this mean? Evades become useless. And the result of this? A patch change not long ago that turned evades only good for one thing… avoiding critical attacks.

    Well, to my knowledge, most professions can not afford to max their evades until later in the game, let alone keeping them at a decent level while maintaining their attack and nano skills. Not to mention that most professions can only raise their evades 4/level compared to the 5/level of most professions' attack skills. After all, with as high as monster defenses are, if our attack skills were weaker due to more IP or implants towards defensive skills, we’d hit the mobs less often and for less damage. So, we get damaged heavily or killed by critical hits because of low evades, or we get damaged heavily or killed because we can’t hit the mob enough. Of course, the monsters themselves don’t have to worry about being hit critically. After all, they’re defensive skills are massive! Of course, this has an impact on PvP as well. After all, the same skills used for PvM are used for PvP.

    Hmmm, does this lack of defensive skills at low to mid levels affect critical hit chance in PvP? Of course it does. So in turn, Funcom, you start taking out items and modifying nanos to keep critical hit chance reduced by the general public. Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not criticizing your changes in patch 14.2 about critical hit chance. What I’m wondering is why don’t you look at the whole picture?

    Hmmm, PvM to PvP … have I gotten off topic from my original question? Stay with me a moment longer, and let’s sum it all up.

    1.) Players can over-equip due to implants, buffs, so monsters are toughened up.

    2.) Monsters can have skills above even well-implanted players.

    3.) Evades were worthless due to high NPC attack skills, so Funcom gave us a reason to raise them, avoiding critical hits.

    4.) Because of this change to AMS vs. DMS, combined with pre-14.2 ways to increase critical hit chance, critical hits were flying around all over the place in PvP, thus causing Funcom to remove and change items and change nanos that effect critical hit chance. This helps PvP (at least in the sense to make it more interesting/last longer), but still leaves many IP tight professions hurting in PvM because they can’t afford to keep their defensive skills up during earlier levels.

    Do you see the progression here?

    So I have to ask again. Why are NPCs so powerful in their skills?

    Funcom, we the players are supposed to be the heroes of Rubi-Ka. The NPCs we fight are cannon fodder soldiers. We are supposed to pull off the impossible; do things that no other person is capable of. So what if we get a little extra experience early on in the game by taking out “orange” and “red” mobs? Higher levels take so long anyway that it all evens out. It might even help both higher and lower level players anyway, simply due to the fact they can feel like they can take a little time away from hunting/mission crawling to actually, oh I don’t know, socialize. This is an MMORPG after all.

    It’ll certainly help higher levels too. In case you haven’t seen the trend, once players can start teaming ql180-190 missions, they don’t bother going any higher while they progress to level 200 because the mobs in the higher level mission aren’t worth the effort for the experience. Maybe it’s just me, but that seems wrong.

    Take a step back, Funcom. Look at the long-haul progression of all your patch changes from the beginning to where we are today.

    Disclaimers:

    No, I don't have any characters above level 124. Any and all claims I make about higher level gaming is based on information I collect from friends at those higher levels as well as from these forums.

    No, none of my characters currently have problems soloing yellows or light oranges. These are simply the opinions and observations I have from my time on Rubi-Ka.
    Kralizec 124 Clan Enforcer, RK1
    Dortujla 83 Clan Bureaucrat, RK1
    Oljada 58 Clan Adventurer, RK1
    ... And a plethora of newbs characters that never make it far.

  2. #2
    Well, that MP may have had a high pistol/evade skill, BUT did he summon any pets to attack you?

  3. #3
    No, the MP didn't. And I both understand this and have taken such things into consideration before making my post. Perhaps I should have raised this point in my original post, so thank you for bringing this up. For pet classes in general it is difficult to balance them in PvM without giving them their pets, but my post wasn't just about such NPCs as Metaphysicists, but all NPCs in general.

    Many a time have I read posts about people in later levels not being able to take on yellows and up, only being able to solo greens. We all play this game for fun, but for many, such as myself, we're also looking for a challenge and a sense of accomplishment. Certainly with the current system you can find a challenging NPC to fight, but how can anyone feel any sort of accomplishment when they can't even fight an NPC the same level as themselves?

    I can't find it now, but I also remember reading a patch note about having to remove a couple of nanos from NT NPCs because it made them too powerful. Would this have been necessary if they're skills were more akin to player base-skill levels?
    Kralizec 124 Clan Enforcer, RK1
    Dortujla 83 Clan Bureaucrat, RK1
    Oljada 58 Clan Adventurer, RK1
    ... And a plethora of newbs characters that never make it far.

  4. #4
    Adventurer's don't use their morphs. Crats, NTs don't use their calms. Crats don't use their charms or fears (Traders don't either but that's actually a good thing).

    And the big thing.

    They aren't nearly as smart as us or adaptable as us.

  5. #5
    Well, mob AI here is probably the worst one of UO, EQ, AC and AO. Top that off with mobs not using alot of their special attacks and skills.

    Why don't pet class mobs have pets? I mean even stone age EQ had it.

    Why don't mez/fear/charm capable mobs use those abilities? Even stone age EQ did it. A charmed, crit buffed MA wailing on the doc certainly adds to the danger of Crat mobs.

    Why don't ranged mobs move out to max range after rooting a melee character? Ok, EQ didn't do it, but EQ is stone age anyway.
    Add a "/team loot chests alpha" option!

  6. #6
    Originally posted by Reiella
    They aren't nearly as smart as us or adaptable as us.
    The sad thing is that FunCom appears to think that being smart and adaptable is a cheat or an outright exploit. When FunCom finds out about us using our intelligence they usually "fix" it in a patch so that our tactic is invalidated.

    Note: many of these examples have already been nerfed by patches:
    Got the mob stuck where you can attack him but he can't fight back? exploit.
    Figured out you can pull the mobs to a spot where you can hide and strike from but the mobs can't see you? exploit
    Found a spot where the mob gets confused and runs around a lot while you shoot him? exploit
    Figured out how to break roots? exploit
    Figured out you could get on a high ledge and take pot shots at mobs that can't reach you? cheat
    Found out you can take tough mobs by zoning out, healing and coming back? cheat

    It's clear that solo combat is supposed to be a simple numbers match - your skill numbers against the mob's skill numbers. This is a common idea in RPGs. Anything that changes that simple match up will be deemed cheating.

    At least there are still valid tactics that can be employed when in a team.
    Heals - they're not just for tradeskills anymore
    Hypos omni doc RK2 <-- stupid enough to have thought that going past level 150 would help her be a better doc
    Phlair omni mp RK2 solo char
    Nerfbat omni enf RK2 awarded the hammer of braveness
    Shadow Ops

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