The REAL problem at lowest levels is NOT the exp loss!

[____________andertec]

Personnally, my first characters in AO where the most fun I had.

I think nothing should be changed except maybe suggest to players more direction of what to do.

I have played:
1- soldier lvl 153 (since june 24th)
2- engineer level 101
3- trader level 40 ish
4- MA level 30 ish
5- Agent level 7
6- Engineer level 60
7- Bureaucrat level 25


Some of the things I like is shopping, setting myself goals, exploring and discovering new ways of doing things. All things that are non existent at higher levels.

My first and highest characters was started the first day the game came out, so no one had anything, everyone had to work for their things and joining a clan at start was not my intention, I wanted to learn the game first.

Speaking strickly game play and ignoring all the technical problems, my newbie times in AO was the most fun I ever had!

The only frustrating thing I found was loosing all of your XP instead of loosing only a portion of it!

In fact, I started and deleted more characters that are listed here, most of the time, I start getting bored and return to my main character around level 30.

As far as ressources, the only ressources I really missed and ended up doing 2-3 weeks worth of mission to get, was a plane.

So, I tend to agree with the poster, that the only thing needing change is credits as the newbie days will be the only days you can actually spend those creds!

In fact, I think FC should inspire themselves from the newbie experience to gain the interest of higher levels!

Ander

[______________Soccom]

Certain professions are a lot harder to start from scratch with.
Maybe these professions should have a warning during the character creation screen to warn of this?
IMHO this is how i see the professinos... form hardest to start with no outside help (money, buffs) to easiest

Trader
Engineer
MP
NT
Agent
Fixer
Doc
Enforcer
Soldier
Adventurer
Crat
MA

Not to say these don't change a lot after lvl 30..

[cryos1999]

It took some time but i've finally gotten my MA where i like him.
I never have begged borrowed or stold for this guy. I kinda enjoyed camping terms for hours to get my armor(some conversations with the other people doing the same are fun). Money? Wow that one was kinda hard at first, then i was told what to start looking for and dammm. My first million was around lvl 25 to 30 i think, I'm now 60 and never have less then 750k to 1 mill in the bank.

Thanks to those that took the time to tell the noob what's what.

[___________Evilspork]

Reading through this thread, I didn't see anyone mention the REAL reason for these changes: So people cannot token farm at level 6 to get their über token boards. Since /terminating at the end of the mission to get rid of the xp you gained is part of the process, making no xp loss until level 30 solves this nicely. The nodrop change to the ritual krys knife is related to this.

On the subject of stealth nerfs, the bull about making tank armor and battle suits cheaper so people can buy them easier is just that, bull. Tank armor is sold in stores, but battle suits aren't. I doubt they will be added to stores, either.

I would be much less bitter about this crap if Funcom just came out and told us the *real* reason they do some of the things they do. Yes, token farming is an issue. So is battle suit farming to an extent. But TELL US, don't make up reasons (battle suits), or inflate a minor point into a major point (xp loss for newbies).

[kyleb]

I posted the token farming thing on pg.2, I know those FC guys are sneaky bastards! It's going to suck rolling new toons, I'll have people who don't know how to play all the way to at least 50 I bet, not that I haven't seen higher lvl gimps.

[____________Kyrrilea]

I would be much less bitter about this crap if Funcom just came out and told us the *real* reason they do some of the things they do. Yes, token farming is an issue. So is battle suit farming to an extent. But TELL US, don't make up reasons (battle suits), or inflate a minor point into a major point (xp loss for newbies).


I agree totally. It seems that any little trick or tip that people can use to there advantage, i.e., the concept of token farming, etc... just needs to be squashed and this is more important than fixing what's broken in the game.

Token farming still takes forever, i tried once, got bored and figured I 'd rather just gain tokens as I go.

OMG, people are standing at terms all day looking for battlesuits as mission rewards, so they can sell them for big bucks? Well, we will make them better, but cheaper and more plentiful so everyone will own one and they won't be worth much anymore. Is that what that's all about?

I will return to the subject of the thread. When I started my first character, I didn't know anyone, was not one to ask for handout and did everything on my own. Since I had no clue about a lot of things in the game, the lack of cash and the lack of knowledge netted me a totally gimped lv.43 MA, oh well, at least I learned as I went.

My prime is an MA in the 70's and I have a new doc in the 40's. Cash transfers have allowed me to really tweak the doc, best implants, good armour, etc... I'm soloing 85% missions, with difficulty, but I can do it. Yes, I learned from my past mistakes, but I also have to hand a lot of it to cash and item transfers from my prime.

I started a character on test recently, knew no one, no character to get transfers from and even knowing what I was doing, the first ten levels have been slow and painful, my armour sucks, I can't afford implants. I never realized how tough the low levels were until I started from scratch with no help.

When I was a n00b, I didn't know any better, but try starting a new character now, with out ANY transfers and don't accept any donations either if you want to be a purist, then see how much fun the low levels are

I think that the critics may be right, I don't think that XP loss and resurrection sickness are the problem, in fact, it helps people learn that they really need to try hard not to die. If you don't learn that lesson early, imagine how tough it's going to be when you die and lose 170K xp at a higher level?

Cash is the problem at lower levels. Even with the biocomunitor the payoff doesn't really start to kick in untill the parts get closer to QL 20+ Starting cash would be nice. Even better would be to give everyone a useful starters pack, a bio-communitor, some basic armour, etc... PLUS triple the amount of cash you get from earlier Mobs and missions and even from lower QL blood plasma. Mission reward cash should be higher as well. By level 10, you probably are going to need 50K alone for class nanos and general buffs, let alone armour and weapons. Yes, I get most of my armour and weapons from missions, but you can't really get what you need for a given level that way until later levels.

I would applaud Funcom for at least trying to take a step in the right direction if it didn't seem so obvious that they were really just tryng to nerf token farming, rather than improving the experience of playing the early levels. Maybe I'm just too cynical.

[___________SypherBoy]

Cash is the problem at lower levels. Even with the biocomunitor the payoff doesn't really start to kick in untill the parts get closer to QL 20+ Starting cash would be nice. Even better would be to give everyone a useful starters pack, a bio-communitor, some basic armour, etc... PLUS triple the amount of cash you get from earlier Mobs and missions and even from lower QL blood plasma. Mission reward cash should be higher as well. By level 10, you probably are going to need 50K alone for class nanos and general buffs, let alone armour and weapons. Yes, I get most of my armour and weapons from missions, but you can't really get what you need for a given level that way until later levels.

Gimme, gimme, gimme. It sickens me with all the people who think we need some "startup kit" to even begin to play the game. You don't *need* any nanos or awesome armor/weapons at those low levels. You don't *need* cash except for maybe first aid kits and treatment packs. You don't *need* implants. You can get along just fine. You may level slower, and I think that's what the core issue is here. Since you are unable to hunt reds, or do anything other than 50% missions, it's not good enough for you.

I can guarantee if Funcom actually gave some startup package with character creation, it wouldn't be good enough. Say they gave 1K creds...you can bet there will be an uproar about how ridiculous 1K is and demand more.

And again I ask...what makes AO any different than other online games that they needs to give out creds/armor/weapons at character creation?

UO = 100 gold, pants & tunic (no armor value), practice weapon
EQ = NO MONEY, NO ARMOR (can turn in start up letter for cloak), practice weapon
AC= Same as EQ
DAoC = Same as EQ

[___________Evilspork]

Originally posted by kyleb
I posted the token farming thing on pg.2, I know those FC guys are sneaky bastards! It's going to suck rolling new toons, I'll have people who don't know how to play all the way to at least 50 I bet, not that I haven't seen higher lvl gimps.

Ah, missed that. D'oh.

[kyleb]

Originally posted by SypherBoy

Gimme, gimme, gimme. It sickens me with all the people who think we need some "startup kit" to even begin to play the game. You don't *need* any nanos or awesome armor/weapons at those low levels. You don't *need* cash except for maybe first aid kits and treatment packs. You don't *need* implants. You can get along just fine. You may level slower, and I think that's what the core issue is here. Since you are unable to hunt reds, or do anything other than 50% missions, it's not good enough for you.

I can guarantee if Funcom actually gave some startup package with character creation, it wouldn't be good enough. Say they gave 1K creds...you can bet there will be an uproar about how ridiculous 1K is and demand more.

And again I ask...what makes AO any different than other online games that they needs to give out creds/armor/weapons at character creation?

UO = 100 gold, pants & tunic (no armor value), practice weapon
EQ = NO MONEY, NO ARMOR (can turn in start up letter for cloak), practice weapon
AC= Same as EQ
DAoC = Same as EQ

Why should the noobs have to work for anything? Maybe they should get yalms too because they are so exspensive lol.

[Beamboom]

SypherBoy said:
"Gimme, gimme, gimme. It sickens me with all the people who think we need some "startup kit" to even begin to play the game. You don't *need* any nanos or awesome armor/weapons at those low levels. You don't *need* cash except for maybe first aid kits and treatment packs. You don't *need* implants. You can get along just fine. You may level slower, and I think that's what the core issue is here. Since you are unable to hunt reds, or do anything other than 50% missions, it's not good enough for you."

The core issue is not whether or not you are ABLE to level. Of course you are. My main points are:

1) Its no FUN at all, until you can start tweaking your char a little, start making implants, and develop your char in any other way than spending the IPs.

2) What makes it hard at the first levels, is the fact that with no creds all you can do is running around killing mobs naked with a watergun.
After a very few levels your startup gun is close to useless. Not every newbie gets the idea about missionbooth camping to get what they want (and camping at the booths are so darn boooring, too. Hey - This is a GAME, after all. Its all about having FUN!). As a total newbie you dont even know how to do missions, thats a new and scary thing, so they just continue what they learned to do at the newbie ground: They go hunting.

So, as a newbie you are rather clueless and underpowered. Heres a typical conversation witha newbie:
- Hey excuse me, where do I buy a new and better gun?
- Right over there, by the stores.
- Ah! Ive spent five hours hunting now, so Ive got almost 800 creds, that should give me a hell of a blaster, right!
- Ooops - Im afraid not. You need a couple of thousand more creds before you should even bother entering the stores to start looking.

*bonk* is the sound of the newbies jaws as it hits the ground.

Of course I then start telling about the missions, but I remember myself when I was all new to this: A MISSION sounded just too advanced, I had a hard time even remembering the keyboard shortcuts for the special attacks!

And, as an experienced player its just a bloody extremely boring job that has to be done at those first levels, UNLESS you transfer to the char.

Some of you have pointed out that this really isnt about making it easier at the first levels at all, but to avoid farming. Well, I have a hard time believing this, but maybe youre right.

If that is so, PLEASE SAY SO RIGHT AWAY, FUNCOM.

Cause thats a different issue, that really should be solved in a different manner. It could easily be solved by continue what theyve started: Make the token rewards higher at higher levels. At first you get only 1 token a mission, but at higher levels you receive a lot more tokens (or rather, a token with a higher value). Balance it so that you really WANT to be lvl100 to get a decent amount of token-points, rather than staying at lvl20 to harvest. That should solve it, shouldnt it?

[___________SypherBoy]

1) Its no FUN at all, until you can start tweaking your char a little, start making implants, and develop your char in any other way than spending the IPs.

2) What makes it hard at the first levels, is the fact that with no creds all you can do is running around killing mobs naked with a watergun.
After a very few levels your startup gun is close to useless.

Who says it's no fun at all until you start tweaking? That's your opinion, not everyone else's. I had a blast running around in the newbie yard. Missions came naturally for me. I'm not sure why other people would have so much trouble. I've never had the conversation you depicted. The only thing I see regularly is newbies don't know how to upload a mission to the map or they don't know how to finish a "return item" mission. Anything you would ever need are in missions. Newbie needs a new gun? Do a mission. Newbie needs new armor? Do a mission. No creds needed at all.

You still haven't answered my question: What makes AO different than other online games that there needs to be a startup kit?

Being naked with a watergun is plenty good to kill the leets and stuff in the newbie yard. What do you really need to start with a set of armor, a better weapon, and creds for? My guess is that people want to be able to hunt harder stuff right off the bat and therefore level faster. They don't want any risk. Heaven forbid you have to do a little work to start out. And if you start an alt, that should NOT make you exempt from the chore of going thru those low levels.

[Beamboom]

Time for a confession: At the end of this thread I created a new char, NOT trasferring anything, not receiving anything, just self made. And youre right. Im sorry. The cash flow isnt such an issue at all, and its fun even without tweaking.

Ok, Ill admit, by lvl20something I HAD to let my MP create a set of implants for it, get some armor and guns, and trasfer it over. But thats just cause I know what COULD be possible with a tweaked setup. If this was my first char, Id have plenty of fun without it, cause I didnt know about that stuff. But never the less, as long as youre aware of the missions and camping for rewards, creds are no prob at all. But GO TELL THAT TO ALL THOSE DARN BEGGARS.

And I did another interesting experiment too: I never saved. Not once. Still when I die with that char, I ressurrect at one of the backyards in Newland.

And hey - it made things even more fun!

[___________SypherBoy]

That's pretty cool, Tedder.

Btw, there will ALWAYS be beggars no matter how easy the game is. They could give 1 mil plus a full set of implants and armor and a great weapon and there will still be beggars. Some of those "beggars" are scam artists, too. Begging is just something we have to accept, although we don't like it. Kinda like telemarketers. heh

[Darkbrood]

I see some folks mentioning that you start with nothing in EQ and DAOC, that's pretty much true but......


The items that drop are not as skill specific. If a sword drops chances are that you can use it, a dagger chances are that you can use it, armor ect....ect...ect... (unless class specific, but not skill specific)

One of the problems is that in AO a cool weapon/armor drops you can use it *if* you possibly gimp yourself and allocate ip to a skill that may/may not be of use to you. So as you compare newbie time in these diffrent games remember that AO is *much* more specialized. In DAOC my level 1 hero could use 4 types of weapons that dropped off mobs right away. Later to get the best DPS I would need to use weapons that I had specialized in and the appropriate styles. I mean if I trained in block and was using a 2 hand hammer and no sheild, it would be a waste because everyone knows if using a 2H weapon you need parry not block. My point, make the req's so low for starter weapons that folks can use many diffrent weapons and see what they like without using (read waisting) IP just to have a decent weapon.

This would allow the young one's to not be frustrated, not need money right away and try diffrent weapons against diffrent mob types. (can you say good training for later).

No risk to game as this would only be for first 20 levles and allow them to bank some cash for implants, weapon and armor of choice.

Anyway anyting that allows *new* players to the game to enjoy the first 20 cycles is a plus in my eyes. Heck, you could even go so far as to make these advantages specific to new accounts, kinda like our P-backpacks are specific to those of us with old accounts. No harm for those who twink as *specific* armor and weapons would still be the best, but non-specific would allow *new* players a chance to learn the game and get a feel *prior* to choosing what weapon style best fits them.

Just thinking outloud

dB

[______________Leumas]

Let me tell something about startup in EQ. Newbie monster in EQ give roughly 1-3 copper and most of the time they dun drop anything at all. Any idea how much a stack of bandages cost in EQ? 1.5 pp, that's equal to 1500 coppers. Any idea how much a stack of food cost? Roughly 1 gold, that's equal to 100 coppers. Starting up in AO has never been harder then EQ.

As for the wonderfull weapon that you mention, if anyone ever try to level with those weapon, I guarantee him die 9 out of 10 times. The only way to get reasonable weapon is though camping of name spawn or alternately buy it off other players.

[______________Kwoung]

Darkbrood you seem to have missed one of the points. You do not have to mission for a weapon as a reward. As was pointed out in the money making thread you can easilly make more than enough to go to a basic shop and purchase any of the hundreds of weapons available there, many of which(way more than the 4 DAOC has) will have exactly what you are looking for. The same goes for armour.

My untwinked newbies can easilly buy weapons at least double their level in QL by level 3 with the creds earned from doing the right missions. The newbie gun is more than enough to get me there in almost notime.

Once again, a little information on how to make creds at low levels will help the newbies WAY more than pampering them with some "startup kit". It will also help to make characters that can function on their own instead of having to resort to begging or counting on their guild to take care of them because they do not have a clue how to be self sufficent and expect everything to be handed to them.

[Xaielao]

part of the reason there is no cash flow, and part of the reason some of you are saying your first characters had plenty of cash, is because some time ago, late summer last year I believe, funcom nerfed mission reward money.

They did this because there was an outcry that mission locations were far to distant, and indeed they were. But do to the distance they were worth a LOT of money! I remember my Fixer's first incarnation, he got to his 70's and I used to go to Avelon and get missions for 50-60k a pop! Yes i had to go way out to get to them but that was fat cash! I could make a few hundred k in an hour by blitzing 5 or 6 missions.

So when the location distance was shortened, reward was shortened. It seams it was shortened by a bit too much because now in his 50's the new role of Xaielao cannot find missions form Avalon terminals that pay over 20k or so.

It seams that the change in money effects all levels.

Another interesting thing to note, and I try to tell this to every newb I see, is that getting missions in Tir, with locations in Tir are going to pay SQUAT. They pay like 300c at level 10. That is nothing. So I tell newbies to find there way to Avelon and get missions there. AT level 5 Avelon missions pay about 3k. That's WAY more then anyplace else (at least until 14.2, the wompa change has opened up wompa's to several clan outposts, all which have mission terms that pay out similar to Avelon and have locations like Athen, West Athen, Wartorn Valley.

So it is possible to make ok money as an newb.. but for true newbs it's especially hard.