The Role of the Neutrals

[Gene13]

Only a few hours and most of the important stuff have been said.
Brick up at least one of the wompas (preferably the Tir one, since it seems that's where the clanners arrive at Rubi-Ka). The glass bubble sounds fun too.
Bring ICC HQ to life sounds like a great idea (I was so disappointed when I found that place).

Like most of us, I don't want to 'win' - I want to stay out of the conflict (and maybe make a cred or two doing so).

Superior NF's seems to be a problem for most profesions. I'm a fixer so I couldn't care less for my own Nanos, but it would be nice to know that the neutral Docs have the best heals they can use. If you feel this is something that can only come from being backed up by a lager corporation/organisation, then give us one (1) machine that has nanos from all profesions. I'm sure enough superior NFs are somehow 'leaking' out of OT/Clan warehouses to fill up one vendor.

Hey, don't look at me! He did it! /me points at Rollo303

If you plan on having NPCs in cities attack our lowbies, could you at least give us some kind of warning? Say, NPC 'Henry Rollins' is neut-friendly and will never attack a neutral if not attacked first, but NPC 'Will Smith' is a freakin nutcase and will gun down any lower level neutral that sets his foot in West Athen.

The ability to make neutral organisations have done a lot to raise the gaming experience for me. Kinda turned it from a huge FPS to what I think is (no pen-and-paper-dungeons-and-whatever-childhood for me), more of a RPG.

The IFF/[tab] is pain, although I can see the logic behind this. An OT employee doesn't identify a clanner as a target (Foe) specifically, he/she identifies another OT employee as a non-taget (friend). Neuts, not being identified as 'friends', will automatically fall into the 'foe' category. Not much to do about this from a 'realistical' pov, but since this is just a game: PLEASE GET US OFF OF THEIR [TAB].

/G13

[________________Gait]

Peg-

Gimme a tell in game sometime (puppetvision) and I'll introduce you to some neutrals that do act "neutral". I think you'd be in for a surprise.

[Brummenbauch]

"As an example, when you make player-created missions a reality, if there is the option to put a bounty on another player's head, then make sure if the target is Omni that that mission is open to Neutrals as well. Waive the 25% gas rules for Neutrals for that specific mission-holder vs. that specific target. Perhaps the Ritual Krys knife mentioned in some assasination missions could be issued and used to initiate combat"

Ok, a claner puts out a hit on a omni ...
Neutral player "Fencesitter" accepts said hit and carries it out ...
At that point Fencesitter is no longer neutral. At the very least the assassin should be wanted for questioning and/or be charged with murder by Omni. While Fencesitter may still carry the title "neutral" it would be only that, a title. For all intents and purposes they would become a clanner -- a wanted man.

If the Neuts want to play that type fo role, FC should change the faction name to Independants .. for it has nothing to do with true neutrality.

[____________VonVolks]

Jimmy was neutral cos it suits a fixer to be neutral. I'm able to service more clients and be a link man In RK2 shady underworld of all 3 sides.

However. OFF TAB please. in the few times ive been killed at least some were accidental ( in fact a friend killed me in 2 shots the first time!) This makes no sense. as said b4 , if people want to kill us, fair enough. but no more accidents.

Also no neutral initiation of combat for us, or tokens etc. they are for CLAN OT. we are a bunch of people who are NOT clan OT, but individuals. we are not a big group. We may join a neitral guild (good step) but neutral is not a force. we are not here to win, we just want to get on with our own things.

Also wambly.Please be serious. we can kill who we like. OT then clan, clan then OT. What if we are attacked by OT guards etc? we defend ourselves, then automatically become clan.... be serious.

Also as for access / balance. It fairly good. we should be able to use scanner ( maybe at double / triple cost?) but shops seem fair.
Fair point about clothes shops though! (omni med technology a worry maybe?)

And finally Can u change things so neuts arent high level target practise? The guards etc are attacked in newland and it makes me mad!!! If a neut is under attack THEN a neut should be able to initaite combat against the aggressor. Maybe this would deter these Clan and OT murderers, who do little to spouse their cause.

That all I can think of for the moment, but dont make neuts to changed. The TAB is the main thing probably.

[Brummenbauch]

"Also wambly.Please be serious. we can kill who we like. OT then clan, clan then OT. What if we are attacked by OT guards etc? we defend ourselves, then automatically become clan.... be serious"

I am deadly serious.
If you can kill who you like you are not neutral.
You think the Swiss would have lasted through WW2 if they sent out hit squads against the Axis or Allies?

If you get attacked I would suggest running.
If you are neutral you should not want to fight anyway, so either stay out of the PvP zones or run when you are attacked.

Neutrals have no place in the armed conflict.

If you wnat to player a trader and make some bucks off of Omni and the Clans, more power to you...
To take up arms in support of either side strips you of any claim of being neutral. No matter if that support lasts only one fight, you have still chosen a side.

I do agree that if neutral guards are attacked or you're attacked in neutral territory it should not be that way... you should be able to defend your own home against invaders. But that is only in zones that are designated as neutral controlled areas.

[Gene13]

Originally posted by Wambly
I think the penalties for neutrals fighting should be as such :
If you have killed a Omni, no more going to Omni cities risk free. If you kill a clanner, no more going into clan cities risk free.
If you kill over 20 Omni you loose neutrality and become a clanner. Same for killing clanners, you become Omni.
.......
Ther are only two sides to this fight. Those who think Omni legally owns Rubi-ka and has the right to rule as they please and those who think the planet should be free for all. There is no 'middle' ground.

I was in a situation a few days ago where two clan atrox melee types was beating up a neutral 'guard' in Holes in the Wall.
I pulled the retarded an underequipped guard to the 25% area to save her ass, and was planning on keeping her there till the clanners either joined us or went back home.
After a few minutes one of my guildies that had stayed with the clanners /tell'ed me that they wanted to fight me. They were gray to me, and short range so what the hell...
However, for some reason they ran the other way and I never fought them.
If I had fought them, and by a freak accident managed to kill one of them, it would have made me omni you say?
HELL NO! It would have made me a neutral that dislikes stupid clanners even more than I did before.

There is a 3rd way, but you've obviously been fed with so much propaganda from both sides that you've lost the ability to think for your self.

[Bionitrous]

Ok, a claner puts out a hit on a omni ...
Neutral player "Fencesitter" accepts said hit and carries it out ...
At that point Fencesitter is no longer neutral. At the very least the assassin should be wanted for questioning and/or be charged with murder by Omni. While Fencesitter may still carry the title "neutral" it would be only that, a title. For all intents and purposes they would become a clanner -- a wanted man.

If the Neuts want to play that type fo role, FC should change the faction name to Independants .. for it has nothing to do with true neutrality.

Agree to a point. However, the U.S. puts a bounty out on Osama Bin Laden. They don't care if Satan, Gabrial, or the Whirlpool Man come to claim the reward. They're handing out the 25K.

Now if this person now goes on a rampage and 'independantly' starts killing members of al Quaida over the course of the next year, he now has apparently taken up a cause that is other than his own self well-being. He is not neutral as he has become 'anti-' something.

Certain Neutrals wish to be pacifists, certain neutrals want to be self-serving mercenaries. Neither group can be totally embraced by game mechanics without having it turn into either Trammel or Counterstrike. None of us want to become a third 'party' we don't want to ascribe to some Independants of Rubi'Ka ruling body. We have no desire to take up arms for such a third faction and most of us strongly oppose its official formation in the game mechanics. We do well enough keeping tabs with each other in-game as it stands.

I don't want Independant token boards, Independant Mission terminals. I don't want War with either side.

I offered a quickly put together way that the second group of neutrals could be appeased a bit. This mercenary loses his Neutrality if he chooses mission to ONLY kill Omni or Clan targets. Not if he is indescriminate. What would you call him if he chose to only kill Neutral targets?

We don't want to be Switzerland. Many of us are dieing to be PART of the conflict (read: storyline). We just honestly don't care one way or the other about Omni-Tek or the Clans. We view their (player) leadership as something that doesn't suit us. We view the politics of the corporation as something we lawfully don't have to abide by and have no desire to organize and take up the cause of the Clans to overthrow it.

Some of us however would take a fair amount of credits from a Clanner to gank a bunch of Omni's in Perpetual Wastelands. These same people will then just as easily take a double sum of money from those very Omni employees to gank the rebels who paid us in the first place. No hard feelings, mind you but in 0% gas even your fellow Omni/Clan can put a bullet in your head. What do you call a Clanner who kills a fellow Clanner? Surely you respect me more than him. Yet he continues to take Clan missions and gets the protection of the Tir guards and Athen cannons.

Our Neutrality is defined by our apathy towards the two big players. We just don't care about their Logos and Slogans. Our Independance is defined by our infinite variety of personal goals.

The day every Neutral character is recognized by the game rules as some sort of third 'Faction' with it's own agenda is the day I start looking for the Fourth Option.

[Brummenbauch]

While the US may not care who gets Bin Laden I can garuntee you that there would be folks who did.
Just as there was a bounty put on everything to do with the 'Satanic Verses' I would imagine there will be a bounty put on the person who takes down Bin Laden.

You have actually helped to prove my point.
The person who takes down Bin Laden will be a hero in the US and be a great peril if they return to the middle east.

[equimon]

When I first started with AO was because I wanted to make a mercenary guild, a neutral one. But cause it was too hard etc.etc. and other issues, I joined clans, and then got reformed by Omni-Reform.

I now got my own guild. But I'm pleased to see the recent changes, and I'm very glad for you. Too bad there is no neutral application form ( I'd think that a few of my chars would love to be neutral

[________BonkBonkBonk]

Personally, as an RPer, I would enjoy seeing the Neutral role turn to a force that must be delt with and they want to win for their own terms and desires. War is much more interesting when it is not traditional, the element of surprise, a 3rd Army. The neutrals should have there own structure and government.

[_____________FUNjanx]

Though I'm sure it's this way on purpose I think the neutrals should have a Token board. I changed my affiliation just because I wanted to be able to get the high lvl merits later in the game, but I thought it sucked that in order to do so I had to choose a side. An easy justification for the token board would be something like a diplomacy or parley merit. Neutral affiliates should be awarded for their efforts to help resolve the conflict. Though the option of neutral was most likely intended for those who wanted to stay out of the conflict I'm sure their are neutrals out there who would work to resolve the omni/clan conflict as expediently as possible just to bring peace back to Rubi-ka and have no answer to who is right or wrong. I would see the neutrals as the comprimising line between the two forces that works to find a balance between omni and clan ideologies. Just a thought.

[___________Catalyste]

Originally posted by Dr Tiny
"
i like as a neutral that i can go anywhere, i dont often get aggro from npcs but then i am pretty high level (one of the top 15 highest neutrals in the game). i;m not stuck in the Home: Broken Shores mentality.

Yes folks and Gaute, note that he said "often"...looks at her bullet riddled armour from the Clan guards in West Athen (just the other day)... and here are some from Mort (in a 75% area no less), and hmm I think these here are from the Omni Mine in The Longest Road....I was afk each time, so there IS a slight risk, folks...

[_____________Aurboth]

I read the article by G. Godager with great interest. I have been playing for quite some time, and, with some hope, my character belongs in the same listing of neutrals as the other notables who have posted before me.

Outside this game, I have been involved in role-playing games for more than 15 years, starting with the original book and paper, and progressing to single-player and MMRPG's, such as Anarchy Online. I have been both a player and a DM(GM).

The was an article in one of the first RPG magazines, one that addressed the topic of dungeon masters designing adventures for the players. If you check the archives of Dragon magazine, you may be able to still find it. In this article they asked the question: What should the dungeon master do when the players want to go a different way from what the story originally intended? The answer was quite simple - let them. The game is for the players, not for the plot, and not for the people running it. It is about time that this was remembered.

On the other hand, it is a shame that the article shows that the author has still missed the point. Neutrals never was a faction, it was a choice made by the player NOT to be in a faction. They can come in many different roles. They can be the person who came to the planet and was caught in the middle, or the person who supplies either side, or even a mercenary for hire. The person may not even want the war to end - maybe it is good for business. Any of these can be a "true" neutral. A good number of the people who play neutrals do so because they want to do the role playing involved. And fortunately, the ones who have posted already include some of the best.

As far as any group of players wanting to take part in story events, without the players there is no story. No one should have to ask to take part in the story. Maybe our "dungeon masters" need to take whatever script that was writen for the future history of Rubi-Ka, and throw it away. Let the players play.

As far as changes to the game to make more "neutral friendly", my only real answer is going to be a shrug. The people playing neutrals now, at the highest levels, are doing what they should be doing - playing the game, to the hilt. I am sure that if the temporary chat groups did not break up when people logged out, there would already be a neutral guild leaders chat. If the whompas change, we will make new maps. If the areas change, we learn where to go and where to avoid. If you wish to make the changes to clarify the historical story line, fine. But don't tell us how to play.

[_______________Tipai]

I am very pleased to see the nuetrals are being considered. The inclusion of neutrals could only enhance the story of AO.

The following is my suggestion and the reasoning for such (in charcter of course).

Nuetrals should be given self autonomy. To start, self autonomy over a newly introduced town and outposts surroudning the town. Oh Oh! Here it comes! Within the boundaries of this area they may attack first.

News report...

Omni Tech announced today a large comtingent of military personal sent to territory borders of "town name". Philip Ross has publicly announced that the sudden appearance of this town means that the nuetrals have holographic and motion dampering technology equal to anything OT has. Mr. Ross further states that the use of this technology by the nuetral population to build and virtually siege control of an area of Rubi-ka puts thier position of nuetrality in danger. The resources to build this town are significant. I require full disclosure of all suppliers.

The Nuetral council replied to Mr' Ross' claims and demands...

Yes, we have built a town and in a sense seized control of an area of Rubi-Ka. And we fully intend to and have the ability to defend this region. Defend in that warfare is not permitted. Our guards will enter any and all combat to bring it to a quick end. They are there to maintain peace. If no strife occurs they will not in any way interfer with the normal operations of OmniTech or the Clans. Furthermore we have choosen this area to take as our own speciically because of it's lack of resources and tactical advantages. Mr. Ross urges peace but has yet to fullfill that desire. We have assured in our town that peace between any who live in or enter is required and in keeping with our phylosohpy of non-combative "town territory" has no reclamation centers. Simply no aspect of violence is welcome.

Mr. Ross replies...

The Nuetrals to date have not strayed from their claims of nuetrality. But the resources to build this town as significant and again I state. Full disclosure of the suppliers is required.


I could go on with the OT/ Nuetral etc...

Who is the supplier(s). The post says nuretrals must buy from OT or Clans but I couldn't disagree more! Saying this makes RK isolated when I would think it is closely watched by the rest of the "known universe". It is the sole source of notum. OT doesn't have rivals out there that would quietly give help to the clans in hopes that the conflict would unseat OT? Perhaps the ICC has issues with both the Clans and OT governing RK and feel the nuetrals would be a more cooperative and productive "partner".

Self autonomy where both OT and Clans are welcome but watched guests is a place to start. Whether this area is used as part of the story or not it does give the nuetrals a place of thier own to "defend". They can stay outside the story but still have a focal point to rally around possibly even writing their own part of the story.

The story continues...

OT announced today a contingent of military personal entered "town area" to sieze any information regarding the supplier(s) to build the town. They were repelled by a strong contingent of military personal.

/end

Even tho the "nuetral town" is the focus here it doesn't have to directly affect how the clan and OT dvelop the story. Through self autonomy, items equal to the clans and OT nuetrals have a role a play out.


Lastly I am not saying that the nuetrals shouldn't be involved and able to effect the story. But I would like to reflect the statements made in the post by AO about Fixers. I quote...

"For the impatient (and that includes most of us) this might be too slow, but this is also the strength of the system. It gives us better control and overview of the balance when the power is gradually increasing, instead of dramatic overnight changes."

Self autonomy in the manner I have talked about can provide a role, a "postition", with which the nuetrals and AO staff can build from. A place that is really "nuetral territiory". A place where nuetrals are fully capable of anything a clan or OT may do.

Self autonomy in the sudden appearance of a new nuetral town is dramatic but then drama drives a conflict. It is not the appearance of the town that is a dramatic change to game play but to how the town is used to provide drama. To enhance the storyline and give a starting point for the nuetrals to become invovled (in a nuetral way of course).

How, why, by who has to be on the minds of OT and Clans alike.

Are the nuetrals really nuetral now?

I really think that nuetrality can add immensely to RP of AO. At the very least it is definitely a way of saying thank you to a player base that has proven against the odds their loyalty to an idea.

I started AO with a nuetral character becuase I had hoped there would be more RP involved in the role. When this didn't materialize I changed. I even left AO for awhile. Given some drama to work with I might even try nuetrality myself again!

I wish the nuetrals the best!

[________LordHelmchen]

As some of the other posters, I have started my (only) char neutral, to learn about the world before chosing sides. What I have learnt is that I don't want to belong to either side, I want to choose friends and enemies by myself :-)

Most has been said already, and better than I could have worded it. therefore I'll try to make this short:
-NO easy way to become neutral, if any at all.
-Remove us from everyones TAB friend-or-foe recognition.
-Let us use Cell scanners and shops, unless you provide good RP reasons for denying it to us (like leaking weapons to the enemy, i can accept that. But clothes and medicals ?).
-Stop lettings NPCs attack us unless you provide RP reasons and predictability.
-For the sake of mercenaries, don't make us Omni for killing Claners or vice versa.
-No token boards. Neutrality need to have disadvantages to keep it a minority.
-Let us defend our homes from criminals of either of the three affiliations.
--
LordHelmchen
lvl 53 Neutral Engineer
Member of the Free Souls

[Myers]

While neutrals deserve more oppurtunities in the game, they shouldn't be able to "win". They are neutrals if they want to choose sides they change to another side. They are not suspossed to take sides(they could not make thier support public maybe). The best they can do is help be an mediator in peace talks. Of course they are allied with everyone against people like the Dust Brigade.

[_______________Xente]

Before neutrals can be granted full faction-hood, the following questions must be answered:

What does it mean to be Clan?
What does it mean to be Omni?

The second question is relatively easy - someone whose alignment is Omni is an employee of Omni-tek. But what does it mean to be Clan? Do you swear allegiance to someone? Do you pay some kind of fee? Do you have any obligations? Some kind of special tatoo? Does this mean you are in active rebellion against Omni? My point is, currently there is no distinction between neutrals and clan right now, either politically or idealogically. I would suggest that FC create some quick capsules to describe the main factions:

Alignment: Omni

A citizen who is aligned with the Omni faction works for the Omni-tek megacorporation. Omni-tek actively recruits employees in all disciplines including medicine, engineering, counter-espionage, meta-physics, and of combat. As a member of Omni you will be called upon to defend corporate interests throughout all corners of Rubi-Ka

Alignment: Clan

After the rebellion 800 years ago, Omni-Tek lost control over great portions of the planet. Those areas are now governed by a loosely connected federation known as the Clans. The leaders of the clans form the Council of Truth. Unfortunately, the clans rarely agree on a unified course of action. The loyalty of a clan member belongs to his or her clan first, and the council second.

Now we can introduce:

Alignment: Neutral

Some citizens of Rubi-Ka have chosen not to become employees of Omni-Tek, yet have not chosen to swear allegiance to a particualar clan. These people choose to maintain affiliation only with the Interstellar Confederation of Corporations (ICC), which protects all citizens. Neutrals may consist of newcomers to the planet, or citizens who have left the ranks of Omni or Clans to pursue their own goals.

Treating neutrals as only ICC members seems like a good way to lend credibility to a non-clan/non-omni group. I would make it so that new clanners would be aligned with some kind of default clan like "Wolves of Tir" or something. I would also make it so players can join the neutral faction. If a player can actively choose to leave clan and actively choose to leave omni (as you can now), a player should be able to actively leave both at the same time and defualt to ICC membership. In fact, it should be harder to join clan/omni than renounce it. A player who is "fired" by Omni should immediately revert to neutral and a player who is kicked out of a clan should also revert to neutral.

--Xente

[___________OtakuCODE]

Perhaps most people on the neutral side are victims, but I am not. I believe the name is a misnomer. I am not NEUTRAL about the conflict, I am not without opinion, rather I see neutrality as an opportunity. I can exploit both sides for personal gain. OmniTech wants a clean leader dead? Done. Clan wants a few OmniTech items? Done. I hear both sides and I buy low and sell high. In a world torn asunder by strife, the resourceful don't pledge allegiance and limit their profit opportunities.

OtakuCODE

[____________Ejeckted]

I will just make a few brief points re: my ideas about being neutral.

- to remain neutral in any conflict is difficult.
for both sides to consider you neutral you must pose no threat.
that means no agressive actions and no contributions to either
side except for humanitarian aid.
ingame, this means the PvP rules inwhich neutrals may only
defend themselves, not initiate fights, is perfectly implemented.
and from a gamemechanic standpoint the right choice,
otherwise all the hardcore PvPers would just be 'neutral'
to gain twice as many targets.

- the advantage of neutrality is that you should not be considered
an 'enemy' by either side, as both factions have agreed to respect
your neutrality for the time being. what i think this should mean
ingame is that neutrals, while still open to attack, should NOT
show up as enemys in the TAB function. to attack a neutral you
should have to target them manually. let's face it, PvP in AO
is fast and brutal and you usually dont have time to examine
someones 'T' info.. as soon as that name comes up it's shoot
first or die. neutrals cannot intitiate attack so they are not the
same immediate threat as a player of the enemy side.
give them a break and change thier TAB status to reflect thier
true political position.

- another advantage of neutrality is safe movement.
gaurds should not see neutrals as enemys, and neither should sided-mobs.
i disagree with the neutral-only whompa idea, it just doesnt
make sense when clan can use omni whompas and vice versa.
however please add a whompa to an omni-city in newland.
right now, neutrals are seen as wannabe clanners because
their city is connected to Tir but not Omni1.
there is a 'not in use' whompa in OmniE in the rome/trade cluster.
make that go to newland.

- the shopping system is pretty irrelevant imo,
as anyone can get infinite stores by just finding an empty one
and waiting a couple minutes for it to recycle inbetween visits.

- the disadvantage to being neutral is that you may not recieve
the rewards of having either side backing you. that means
no tokens, no shop discount, no special equipment, no skill bonuses, etc.

- MOST IMPORTANTLY, you must realize that quitting your
job at Omni-Tek or abandoning the Clan rebelion is not
the same thing as joining the opposing side.
Just like quitting a job at IBM doesnt automatically make
you an Apple employee.
Americans that refused to fight for America and moved to
Canada during the Vietnam War did not join the Viet-Kong,
they were simply declaring neutrality.
In AO there should be 2 types of forms; one to join a side,
one to quit a side. Qutting should make you neutral by default,
until if/when you chose to ally yourself again.
Losing your token board is enough of a sacrifice to prevent
casual switching back and forth, and you already have timers
in place to prevent this anyway.
you must allow players to quit thier faction without having
to take on an undesired role of the enemy at the same time.
the current system is bad for roleplay and unjustified.
That said, if you were a big bad Omni PKer who slaughtered
many Clanmembers, and then those same Clanmembers
encounter you later as your newly declared 'nuetral' self,
I would still expect them to attack you as personal payback.
calling yourself nuetral only works if others accept it.

[_____________Kirrana]

The first Idea for the neutrals was that they where the traders, allowed by omni to come to Rubi_ki to fill in the roles that where over wise not provided for.

As Funcom said themselfs they did not expect the Neutrals to become so popular that brings me to the question then why are they.

The real advavtage to being neutral is having no appointed leaders. You can choose to be what you want your role is not defined by anyone or being played out in a story. The problem is hardly any of the clans are following the COT and many of the Omni guilds fail to follow Ross.

We dont have just 3 groups we have loads and over 70% fall into the neutral groups. How many people are taking notice of Ross in Omni. I try to play a Role and find myself time and time again defending Omni-Tek as much from the guilds in Omni as from the clans.

Its stupid and making the Neutrals even more powerful is very scary. I would guess around 70% of the Planet on Rubi-Ki wants to over throw Ross, By the time you include the clans, Neutrals, Omni Anti Ross groups. Plus the half dozen or so groups which sit aside all factions just trying to over throw Ross.

As for the COT is seen as a joke by the clans must dont care what they do. The storyline has lost all focus and it will get worst the whole planet will become neutral trying to overthrow any sense of power be it Ross or COT.



True Omni

Omni Neutral

Neutral

Neutral Pro Clan

Neutral Pro Omni

Clan Neutral

True Clan


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MY RANT TIME SORRY

I have nothing against the Neutrals and it would be fun to see another side take a role. But why are you even worrying about this pie in the sky stuff ?

You posted months ago about the guild houses, appartments, city of jobe, fixing bugs, overequiping. Stop dreaming of creating more work for you staff with neutral issues and stick to fixing the problems we already have. How about a report following up on guilds houses as progress ?

I think as players you have promised to deliver a lot now, but its time to stop the talk of items 2 years down the line. Get what you have in order then do the things you have already promised.

This may seem harsh but I have not forget the 10 item appartment bug which you told us would be fixed in June/Junly 2001. I am worried your losing the focus on issues here.

A bigger neutral role would be nice but at what price would we pay.