Neo-Luddite Movement neutralised

[Halogen]

In a joint Omni-Reform and Omni-Pol field operation yesterday, the NLM threat has been neutralised. The NLM protesters Borky, Tohman and Kinesia have received re-education and have been released from custody.

Due to experimental nature of the educational means, Borky, Tohman or Kinesia are still under surveillance in case they show further destructive behaviour or something that might not count as a desired side-effect.

Dr Silvia, Omni-Reform re-education department.

[Shadehawk]

...or something that might not count as a desired side-effect.

Oh, so that's why Tohman and Kinesia are standing in 20K, arguing over a tree! Well, kudos to you!

[Dabblez]

I applaud Omni-Pols efforts in making Rubi-Ka once again safe for engineers.

Dabblez

[Aulial]

I applaud Omni-Pols efforts in making Rubi-Ka once again safe for engineers.

Dabblez

And Zords.

*resumes work*

[Dabblez]

*blinks*

Zords?

Dabblez

[mondobizarro]

Remind me not to anger Omni-tek. In a move far, far worse than death, you chose to eliminate people's free will and destroy the trancendental "I" of those whose opinions differ.

[TitanMage]

interesting...*takes a few notes*

[Issildari]

I am posting my reply to Mondobizarro's re-education issues here as it seems to be a more appropriate thread.

Concerning Tir, I believe wholeheartedly that Silverstone is completely unstable. His draconian principles and "If you aren't with us, you're against us" mentality do more to drive the neutrals and other clans to Omni better than any Omni propaganda could ever possibly do, but recent events at Omni-tek make Silverstone look as harmless as a leet in comparison. Consider the "re-education" of those quacks in the Neo-Luddite Movement. While I think their platform is genuinely absurd, I consider "re-education" to be a fate far worse than even perma-death. To deny freedom of one's body, such as imprisonment or death, is one thing. But to make thought itself a crime is downright monstrous!

I am suprised sir as you sound like a Luddite yourself on this issue. The ancient inprisonment technology you have in mind was also a 're-education' center. Prisoners were packed into overly crowded quarters where only the most savage and brutal could survive by beating and raping others into submission. The end result is a 're-education' resulting in sociopathic killers and brutality.

Now the misguided NLM members have been treated so they are no longer sociopaths bent on destroying robots because of a baseless fear and instead they are taking the time to notice the nicer things in life like the foliage. If these members had felt re-education was so terrible they would not have chosen to break laws in Omni jurisdiction and subject themselves to the treatment.

[mondobizarro]

I wouldn't call my concerns too terribly Luddite, as that implies being against technology in general, in particular new technology, whereas the fundamentals of "re-education" or "brainwashing" are thousands of years old, not exactly cutting edge, you know?

Yes, I realize that the archaic prison system I used was full of flaws and, for the most part, was a complete and utter failure. One thing that it has going for it over re-education was that despite what the system did to a person's body, his or her heart/mind (心 or xin in an ancient Old Earth language) was theirs and untoucheable, and rightfully so, since that soul, if you will, is a self-aware consciousness and the very definition of selfhood.

If someone has an arm lost in an accident and had it replaced with a mechanical arm, is that person still the same person? Of course he is. Replace a faulty heart with a mechanical one, and the personhood of the person is still there unabated. However, during procedures such as brainwashing or re-education, one's self is destroyed. The person who enters a brainwashing session is not the same person that comes out. The old person's soul is destroyed and a new soul is fabricated by those performing the procedure.

The rest of this is based on religious grounds and not science, so bear with me here. Upon death, the soul leaves the body to do whatever it does, rebirth, assension into the Heavens, what have you. Rubi-ka resurrection is merely a detour in this journey. Re-education, by annihilating the soul and creating another in its place, denies that original soul the ability to seek any sort of afterlife. Even a soul seeking eternal damnation is better off than those who have undergone brainwashing, for at least they still exist.

I can't understand why you would choose to place the onus on those subjected to such measures. "If they didn't want their souls destroyed, then they shouldn't have disobeyed us." I assert that it is no man or woman or corporation's right to annihilate a person's soul. In fact, I'd question God Himself should I discover that He/She/It engages in such measures. What's the point of creating sentient life at all if complete annihilation of Self is at the end of the journey?

[Swiftmind]

I believe this is a good move by Omni-Pol. One less terrorist group to worry about.

[Issildari]

I wouldn't call my concerns too terribly Luddite, as that implies being against technology in general, in particular new technology, whereas the fundamentals of "re-education" or "brainwashing" are thousands of years old, not exactly cutting edge, you know?

Fair enough. I was not accusing you of being a Luddite. I was merely remarking that your views shared some of the same superficial characteristics of those espoused by Luddites.

Yes, I realize that the archaic prison system I used was full of flaws and, for the most part, was a complete and utter failure. One thing that it has going for it over re-education was that despite what the system did to a person's body, his or her heart/mind (心 or xin in an ancient Old Earth language) was theirs and untoucheable, and rightfully so, since that soul, if you will, is a self-aware consciousness and the very definition of selfhood.

I do not think that I am willing to grant your statement that the archaic prison systems did not touch a person's heart/mind/心. I will grant that in principle it was not inteded to do so specifically. However it failed precisely because a human being rarely emerged from a prison sentence but rather an enraged animal who had been subjected to an environment of sensless beatings and rapings which cannot leave a person without violating that very heart/mind/心 that you claim is inviolable. In fact I believe it is very difficult to eliminate crime (if not impossible) without violating the criminal's heart/mind/心. If this is the case then your objection that Omni-Reform does something inevitable is not really productive.

If someone has an arm lost in an accident and had it replaced with a mechanical arm, is that person still the same person? Of course he is. Replace a faulty heart with a mechanical one, and the personhood of the person is still there unabated.

Actually I would say that a person is never the same after anything happens to them - and this is especially true in the wake of an accident serious enough to remove a limb. It is my belief that every interaction with the environment changes a person's soul little.

I once read a wonderful metaphor for the process which was coloring a can of white paint (the original soul/heart/mind/心 ) little by little with dabs of color (individual experiences). Perhaps it is my view of being colored by each experience that allows me to see re-education merely as a more drastic coloring which is the only option left when the color so far feels compelled to smash otherwise peaceful robots like Marvin.

It will take further convincing than this argument if you want me to accept that a person's entire soul is replaced as you seem to claim. I will refrain from commenting on the rest of your response which assumes I am already convinced.

I can't understand why you would choose to place the onus on those subjected to such measures. "If they didn't want their souls destroyed, then they shouldn't have disobeyed us."

There is historical precedent which dates back to one the earliest civilizations - the trial and execution of the ancient earth philosopher Socrates. He was remarkable in that he came to exactly the same conclusion Omni-Reform and I have and did not abandon the city which demanded his execution.

The members of the NLM who were re-educated (Borky, Tohman and Kinesia) were all OT employees. They understood Omni-Tek's policy of using re-education when they choose to violate the law - a violation which was clearly premeditated. They clearly accepted all the benefits the company offered them. They also worked to further the interests of the company themselves. Perhaps if they had been attepmting to change the company's re-education policy there might be grounds to suggest re-education is not appropriate for them. So one must wonder if they choose to be employees and choose to violate company policy why should they expect anything besides the treatment company policy demands.

[Aulial]

*blinks*

Zords?

Dabblez

Yes, giant invincible robots. It's still far from finished, a lot of the internal systems need a lot of work, but it is there. Most of the time I use the city's cloaking device to keep it under wraps though.

[mondobizarro]

You know what? I'm too tired to answer you. Philosophizing is exhausting. Even if you disagree with the NLM's beliefs, it should be noted that they were specifically attacking Marvin. Have you ever talked to him? He's completely intolerable! I talked to him for about a minute and I wanted to tear him apart piece by piece myself! Carrying on a conversation with Marvin is about as annoying, frustrating, and futile as talking to Escritores.

-Rene

[Issildari]

Even if you disagree with the NLM's beliefs, it should be noted that they were specifically attacking Marvin. Have you ever talked to him? He's completely intolerable! I talked to him for about a minute and I wanted to tear him apart piece by piece myself! Carrying on a conversation with Marvin is about as annoying, frustrating, and futile as talking to Escritores.

I must admit that had these people not been NLM members who planned for weeks to smash bots that re-education is probably not called for. One does get the feeling talking to Marvin (or Escritores) that one must either kill oneself or Marvin (or Escritores).