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Thread: Punishing Success

  1. #1

    Post Punishing Success

    (has posted this elswhere but realizes that THIS is the proper forum now)
    i've noticed a growing trend with funcom and their continual tweaking.
    their latest patch has turned out to be disappointing in too many ways, for me to remain silent anymore.
    i'm noticing a very very ugly trend, with each new patch, funcom has been punishing successful and intelligent players, and also hurting legit tatics, all in the name of "fairness" some things that displease me
    1. agents need their range back. I do not have an agent character, but part of being an agent is having long range. agents worked hard to get that range, to punish them and make them melee characters defeats the purpose of having a sniper rifle.

    2. same thing with NT's. NT's have had their range reduced to uselessness. . the whole POINT of being an NT is to be a long range artillery, NT's have very weak HP, and very weak armour. there are no BUFF's for INT and PYSCHIC, . which are the two strongest attributes of an NT, NT's can not get buffed into Nano armour. it takes a LOT of effort to make a really good NT character. and now their biggest strong point has been Nerfed to nothingness, again in the name of "fairness"

    frankly this game isn't supposed to be fair. the title itself "ANARCY" online is a fair indication of that. Now i know why they nerfed range on nt's. 1, for pvp reasons, and 2, because they could nuke certain plants from very far away without getting hit. the First reason i will address later. the second reason to me isnt' a valid reason to nerf range on Nt's. . Yes NT's could Nuke plants from far away, but it takes a great deal of care to do so. typically surrounding those plants were very Mean mob's with large aggro ranges. it took planning and thought to hit those plants,. it was FUN to set up proper tactics to do so, funcom needs to understand that people enjoy challenges, particularly those that invole stratgy, and planning, and proper leadership. If funcom Really felt this was exploiting, they need to rethink this. instead of nefing NT's, they could have made the plants hit farther, it would have "fixed' the problem, and not annoyed so many people.. I found that going after plants was a lot more exicting then sitting at one of the Mob camps and pulling and nuking green's. going after the plants was certainly more risky. but now i can't even do that anymore. I have been punished for playing smart,, and punished for working to get my range and power up high.

    NT's are physically slow, both in casting nukes, and in Physicalness , we have low HP and low AC. we can't run fast. all we had going for us was great range, and powerfull slow nukes. we are completely dependent on other classes both doc's tanks and even MP's who buff our MC. missions are absurdly hard for us without extra people. while it is possible to calm and nuke and calm and nuke through a mission, it's very tedious.and very expensive. I no longer bother with missions unless i get a group. and this is for SOLO missions, which by definition should be doeable by one person, but aren't because the mob's have way to many hp's... why do grey mob's have 2-5 times the hp i do?

    missions are now worse.. why can't I blitz a mission? why do i have to be punished for blitzing a mission? the mission doesn't say "go kill everything there and get the item". i did not expect to see this "fix" in the current patch. funcom acts like blitzing a mission is an easy thing.. it ISN"T that easy!. but now i can't get the reward if i get aggroed in a mission?! i guess it's back to letting my agent friend sneak them again. i expect funcom to punish this soon too. shame on me for being clever, in a NON explotive way. by making funcom FORCE us to do missions their way only, they are punishing creativity, inguentity, and skill.. I liked doing both.. blizting a mission, and getting a group to go through, now my choice has been limited. Tokens have become a joke, they are impossible to get in any kind of volume at high levels, so thats another thing i Don't have to look forward to. If people want to "farm" for tokens, they should be able to. Just because Players do things that Funcom didn't expect, isn't reason enough to stop them, not including obvious exploits, which should be stopped.<funcom Did fix missions but i left this in anyway as it has other points>

    Funcom needs to realize that the driving force of success is competition, and that competition is fun, to punish success, is to eliminate competition, to eliminate competition is to eliminate any drive to play this game. Right now i have very little drive to play, to me it is turning into a 3d chat program.

    PVP, i think that funcom's changes to pvp were a step in the wrong direction, once again an artifical limitation has been implemented to punish those that hit a bit harder and slower, ie NT"s. I don't think that this has been completely thought through, while NT's will no longer be able to kill in one shot, melee people, those that hit fast and for weaker hits, will be able to kill a whole heck of a lot better now. given how weak nt's are physically, they are now at a disadvantage. "artifical" limitations do not work.

    I propose another solution.I propose that everyone's HP is multipled by a factor of 2 to 4. I propose that Player Characters, and NPC's of simliar lvl have very simlar number of HP's (with exceptions to odd mob's n' so forth).. it has never made sense to me that this GREY "clan VIrus builder" has 4 times the number of hp's i do If all player characters had similarly increased HP that NPC's do, then PVP would fix itself. you wouldn't have to have this bizaare 40% cap. Slow nukers wouldn't be able to kill in one shot, for the most part. and they would at least get a chance for a second hit. The cap doesn't make sense, a LVL 200 ANYTHING *SHOULD* be able to kill a lvl 75 in one shot, what REALLY should be fixed is that dang grid in 2ho, STick a 75% field around it, BOOT grid campers, those are exploiters, Outside of exploiters, people who get killed in 0% zones have NO RIGHT to complain. Most of these people are in guilds, and will form parties to erradicate consitant party killers. Heck that's something FUN to do, for funcom to intervene because some people "can't handle it" isn't right, this game is about competition, not "fairness", hence the name "ANARCY online"

    I really think a Flat acrosst he board 2-4x increase in Hitpoints of everyone will solve a LOT of problems, AND keep the game fun and competitive, . RANGE has to be brought back, both for snipers/agents, and NT's, these characters are supposed to shoot from afar, YES people can get sniped in a few shots withotu getting seen, . to me thats signficantly more realistic. reducing pvp to nothing more then "rolling dice" destroys tatic's and gets rid of Fun.. in particular for the real pvp people, the one's that go to 0% zones and set up ambushes. grid campers don't count, . people that camp suppresion zones dont' count either, the game should NOT be altered for this handful of people, Nerfing range because people camped the grid from long range is plain wrong. It hurt all the people that used ranged tatics in more legit situations., this game is slowly getting reduced to tedium, tanking and slowly widdling away a mob's super high hp doesn't require a lot of skill, It was a lot more fun for people to have choices in their style of combat. Increasing everyone's HP's will solve PVP issues, and remove some of the dependencies currently held on docs. A group SHOULD be able to go after orange mobs or red mobs without a doctor. People WILL gain levels, no matter what, to remove tactics from leveling, makes it more boring, but people will still level, funcom underestimates the drive behind the average gamer.

    on a last note, i heard that engineers can no longer control pets from the safty of their aircraft. ok i must admit it is a *bit* lame to attack critters from an airplane. on the other hand i haven't seen too many super high lvl engineers either. a better fix would have been to simply make it so that you can't get xp while in an airplane, OR not even worry about the problem in the first place. after all the whole point of being an engineer is to have your Killer robot kill things for you.. doing so from the safty of an aircraft is just an extension of that, as far as i'm concerned.
    Before Funcom alters a game in anyway, they have to ask themselves if they are punishing creative game play, and success, or if it's an actual exploit, so far i've mostly seen funcom punish creative game play,. I think if funcom had a staff of about 30 all time game players, at various lvl's, AND with about 5-20% of their IP completely wasted(to represent a more realistic view of actual players in the game), they would have a better understanding of what their Changes entail.

    one last thing i would like to see fixed, the surgery clinc machiens need to buff treatment by 200, at least for people over lvl 100, Dumping IP into treatment is prohibativly expensive. while a 100 increase in treatment is pefectly fine for a low level, at higher level's 100 is nearly useless. it's very easy for a lowlevel to buff into a high quality implant, but nearly impossible now for a high level to buff into a simiarly high implant, or heck even one for their own level. the Second ability requirement on high end implants is meangingless, when the real dependency is on the treatment level. to me this is just another punishment for being successfull. Funcom didn't expect people to Buff into "anything", but a few people spent a great deal of time.effort. and money. to buff into very high end equipment. and those people got punished for their efforts. Agents, rifles, NT's. Range, and NT's pillows are just some examples. oh and Doc's, they dont' have Range anymore just like the NT's, and now that monsters aggro the heck out of them, playing a doc is hard, i actually don't mind that doc's get aggroed, IF they had their orginal range still, but they don't. so they end up tanking now. funcom i think wants us to always play with a dedicated tank. I think we should have more choices then that. Oh yah, social armour, *i* like fighting in my bikini!, yah it's not realistic, but it's fun!


    Ok my dream list, these are somethings i would LOVE to see, spefically related to trade, and missions Trading, Throw away the current Trade channel, it's cumbersome tedious and annoying. Instead set up a system where people can LIST items they currently have for sale, into a data base, and then have it where people can look up items currently being offered for sale.
    have it so that it's sorted by type, and quality level, for example have catogories "armor" "Guns" "jewlery" "Gems" just for example, then have links for ranges of quality levels 10-30 30-50 50-70 etc., then list the items for sale, The price the seller is asking, a link to contact them, AND a link for OTHER items that person is selling, have ti so that guilds can form STORES to sell things.. ALso levy a Light Listing fee, to discourage junk , , but this shouldn't be overly punitative, people can list junk if they want to, it just won't sell you see? this would really add a lot of fun to the game, and give guilds something to do. ie COMPETE with other guilds for selling stuff. the current Trade channel is a scrolling pain and frankly boring, people shouldn't have to spend hours posting stuff to trade channel. Should also have a catagory for "services" ie nano programming. Buffing. "underground" stuff too.. would add a more fun element to the game. i would love to see a guild advertising Extermination and hit services in a data base.

    Missions, Mission rewards,. they need higher probablities for things that people actually use, ie armour . weapons and nano's, there should be a Sliders or switches to increase probabilty of getting a useful item, camping mission terminals for hours to get an NT nano isn't fun. HOWEVER with a better implenmted trade system, one should be able to do missions for OTHER items with the confiedence that they can sell them. For example i currently won't do missions for obscure soilder nano's, simply because i can't stand selling anything in Trade chat, but i would do em if i can list the item for a few days, or even a few hours at a time

    You guys have a great game!, now quit messing it up!

    (end very lenghty letter now)
    Anisotropic 113 NT and staying there till mai catches up
    feel free to email me
    washu@hiwaay.net
    ------------------------------------------
    "I do Not believe in these spooky actions at a distance"
    Albert Einstein

  2. #2
    A very well thought out discussion about the continual "tweaks" that funcom seem keen on doing. I am a lvl 112 Doctor and have seen first hand the change in Team and Single heals it used to be singles got the Doc agroed now it the team. That I dont mind as I prefered to use the single as it gave better heals and was easier on the nano usage. As for the Changes in the Agents I agree with Ani on this I have been killed in DAV on a few occasions that I dont mind, but what is totally out of order is FUNCOM's lack of policy on grid and whompha campers. To find yourself dead before you have taken 1 step is just going to alienate the few players that are still making their minds up about staying in this game. We were all told that the grid campers would be taken care of with this patch, this is not the case really they will still be there, it may take 1 or 2 more shots to kill us but the campers will still be the major downside to this game. As for the changes with the NT's, as Ani said she has worked long and hard to get where she is as has the rest of the higher level NT's and to get all their ranges chopped across the board is just another example of Funcom trying to eradicate the camper problem but have gone about it in the wrong way (maybe). It is only punishing the majority of the legitimate players and not those who have forced these changes upon Funcom.

    Tartlet 112 Doc till Mai catches up :-)

  3. #3
    Hear hear, I second the wise words of former posters, problem is:
    Ppl who dont know what the word tactic or planning means, scream cause they see other ppl do it and I they call it unfair or exploiting, Funcom listens to these ppl unfortunately, as they make up a good part of the generic playermass, so those who know to apply their brains will get punished, thats the way it is, and I guess hell will freeze over before that changes...
    Hermy
    Shadelore
    Retired.

  4. #4

    agreement?

    I would like to agree with Anisoropic but he is too broad on his scope so I must therefore disagree but for the mission statements.

    The "Doc" is probably correct about NTs- don't know I've never played one.

    I liked the post 12.8 missions. Missions now have become overly tough again for the amount of $$.

    Other than that I MUST say 'kudos' for the graphics change implementaion. I have a poor 56 conncetion and can now really enjoy the beauty of the game without being jerked to pieces.

    Very complex game-

  5. #5

    Angry

    I have to agree with Tartlet.

    13.0 is broken. Goodbye Docs, goodbye NTs.

    Will the last doc please turn off the light?

    Welcome to Morality Online: Where we decide how you should level, when and where.

  6. #6

    shameless bump

    I like this post so. Bump

  7. #7
    I agree with you, they're nerfing characters and enhancing mobs, something wrong here. So...Bump.

  8. #8

    Re: Punishing Success

    ------------------Originally posted by Anisotropic----------------------
    NT's are physically slow, both in casting nukes, and in Physicalness , we have low HP and low AC. we can't run fast. all we had going for us was great range, and powerfull slow nukes.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Agreed, lets change it back!

    --------------Originally posted by Anisotropic---------------------------
    missions are now worse.. why can't I blitz a mission? why do i have to be punished for blitzing a mission? the mission doesn't say "go kill everything there and get the item".
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Actually, read some of your missions, they said kill everything, i cant post the exact words but its something like "Kill them all, we know death isnt perminant in this world, but do it anyways."

    -------------------Originally posted by Anisotropic---------------------
    one last thing i would like to see fixed, the surgery clinc machiens need to buff treatment by 200, at least for people over lvl 100, Dumping IP into treatment is prohibativly expensive. while a 100 increase in treatment is pefectly fine for a low level, at higher level's 100 is nearly useless.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Funcom didnt promise that you would get to wear lvl200 implants. This isnt Asheron's Call where you have mages wearing full platemail, the point of the game isnt to have everyone wearing tank armor, elite omni pol and maxxed out implants. It sickens me to look at doctors wearing omni pol gear instead of the gear that they should because they pour IPs into skills they dont need so they can wear armor they dont need. In this game you have players whining that they dont have enough IPs because they are throwing IPs into skills they dont need. No one bothers to even look at armor anymore or test anything out. I see agents wearing omni pol armor to get a TINY bit more ac than what steel ribbed gives, my agent wears a full suit of nadir steel ribbed and my acs are higher than some tanks. You people cant even play the damn game and it sickens me, you come on here and whine, whine, whine because you cant play the game right. This game is heavily based on IPs, funcom doesnt garantee you will get to max every skill you want.

  9. #9

    Exclamation Armor and Nerfs and ranting

    Kizzim: People wear omni pol above many other types of armors for a couple reasons....and they aren't "your" reasons:

    1) You can buff Str/Stam a helluva lot more than Int/Psy (12/12) and a good bit more than Agi/Sen (37/27). Cushions + General + IC + Titan is 66 buff. I'm sure you could go higher if you wanted. Also str/stam clusters don't conflict with each other like Int/Psy, and they tend to not conflict with many nanos, thats why my doc is in pol/elite as a nanobreed) Theres supposed to be some highlevel +40 int/psy buff (odin something, mp nano I believe) but I have yet to see anyone offer it, so its either broken, no one has it or self only. I can shop in 100+ chan too its not offered there either. As an opi I would personally go with Agi/Str armor over Agi/Sen. (37/66 vs 37/27)

    2) Looks. This is a social game for some of us...and frankly omni pol looks nice to that same 'some of us'. Don't tell others what to wear you really have no right. Its my IP...for example, if I blow points on dark blue shotgun on an agent, so be it. (OET/lovemakers are great tho)

    3) Availability...besides elite, str/stam armor is the easiest **** to find, in shops or trade channel. It takes less time and money to get str/stam. agi/str is pretty easy too, and even cheaper in channel...dunno why, forest/desert is decent stuff, and senpai is great. (though coats go for a ton of course, they were better than tank before, and now even more so...plus they look nice, tank can look foolish on some chars, like a reject life vest)

    PS, not every agent is a cookie cutter opifex. Mine wears elite as well. I'm sure her AC was a lot higher than yours at comparable levels too....mostly because I'm a twink f**ker extreme who goes for max possible buffs. And people are ditching tank for senpai cloaks **hard** now....if they can afford or find it. (the rest are wishing they could)




    Anyway, back on topic:

    Funcom suffers from the *impatient* perfectionist lawnboy problem:
    He wants all the grass to be the same height.
    So he trims the tallest blades to be even with the lowest ones.
    However, lawnmowers aren't perfect, and the ground isn't level.
    He keeps trimming until the blades hit nothing but dirt.
    Lo and behold, your lawn is dead.

    Stand back and let the lower blades grow damnit! BOOST the "weak" classes, leave the rest alone! Set the mower deck to 5" and leave it! Otherwise you're fired and we'll get a new lawnboy (e.g. another game)

    BTW, I don't see many new people anymore, the newbie highrise(s) is/are all rerollers...and as omni at least, all new chars spawn in Ent 1 now...kinda neat actually, would have helped people find in-game friends a lot easier if it was this way from the start. Although the newbie zones seem to have overflow rules in effect like shops, when one fills up a 'new' zone copy is spawned. Makes transfer a lot easier tho heheh

  10. #10
    although i agree with you bauxite, it wont ever happen. Funcom policy ever since (at least) beta 3 has been to nerf whats too strong. My theory is that there are so many bugs and inbalances that funcom does what takes the least time and thought, and thats nerfing. Unfortunately they dont weigh the consequences well enough...i thought the patch pre 13.0 was a step in the right direction..but low and behold funcom proved me wrong again...

  11. #11
    I have to comment on Bauxite's post just because it once again shows why 90% of the people who play this game end up destroying it.

    Originally posted by Bauxite----------------------------------------------

    1) You can buff Str/Stam a helluva lot more than Int/Psy (12/12) and a good bit more than Agi/Sen (37/27).

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    look beyond the buffs, look at the high level game. Even tho you can buff stuff, which doesnt matter you constantly have to still pump ips into TWO SKILLS YOU DONT NEED, this comes down to IP consumption, you have to be anal about what you spend. So what that you cant twink a doctor's armor as good as a soldier or enforcer, YOU SHOULDNT BE IN COMBAT. I consider myself one of the best team organizers and stratigists ever (yes im inflating my ego) my docs wont ever get hit unless I SCREW UP. Which doesnt matter because a doc with omni pol is still going to die as fast as a doc with energized or organic armor.



    Originally posted by Bauxite-----------------------------------------------

    As an opi I would personally go with Agi/Str armor over Agi/Sen. (37/66 vs 37/27)

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Ever heard of a carrier craft? +100ish to strength. But thats not
    the point. Once again whats the point in buffing a stat 10 points
    over another, usually in most armor the difference is LESS than
    10 points between the two skills, having 37/66 is USELESS, if
    you cant get that 37 to atleast 56. And once again your pumping IPs into costly skills. Agents do not need strenght, it does nothing but allow some twink to make himself feel good inside. The only ranged profession strength is a worthwhile investment to is soldiers because FULLAUTO runs offa strength.


    Originally posted by Bauxite-----------------------------------------------
    3) Availability...besides elite, str/stam armor is the easiest **** to find, in shops or trade channel. It takes less time and money to get str/stam. agi/str is pretty easy too, and even cheaper in channel...dunno why, forest/desert is decent stuff, and senpai is great. (though coats go for a ton of course, they were better than tank before, and now even more so...plus they look nice, tank can look foolish on some chars, like a reject life vest)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I dont know about when you play, but elite, omni pol, and senpai are the HARDEST to find, and the most expensive.

    You think that senpai coats are worthwhile, i dont, i dont view the penalties that the suits and tanks give are THAT bad. I have to remove and put on my suit constantly but its worth the 5x as much ac as the coat gives. I mean really, your the exact 'Twinker A' class, your still forcefeeding out bad advice that went out 2 months ago. I educate people because at the high level game im tired of people rerolling because they took bad advice that people like you gave them. Its crappy to be at the top alone.

  12. #12
    Jesus H christ dude - get a life

  13. #13
    Posted by Nall (just another idiot)-----------------------------------------

    Jesus H christ dude - get a life

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    After reading my post thats the best response you could think of? Were all 2 of your posts before this whitted one liners like this one? or do you actually post anything worthwhile? Probably not, my cat has a better personality than you.
    Kizzim - Agent RK2
    Omni Quick Response Force


    "Some people call me a Troll, I see myself as Denial of Service to idiots."

    "The object of War is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his."

  14. #14
    Goody. Flamewar pissing contest. Well, there goes all use for this thread.
    God forbid we act like adults.
    "By the way, if anyone here is in marketing or advertising: kill yourself." --Bill Hicks
    "Have we turned into gerbils? People are paying money to walk up invisible steps over and over again." --Dennis Leary

  15. #15
    I wasnt the one that started it. I should have looked Nall's last posts and i would have figured out this was his typical behavour on these boards, he hasnt posted one worthwhile idea yet. Just basically attempted to start a flamewar on another guys thread too. Had I know that before i posted I wouldnt have even bothered. This thread is still good, hopefully people will just ignore the little spat.
    Kizzim - Agent RK2
    Omni Quick Response Force


    "Some people call me a Troll, I see myself as Denial of Service to idiots."

    "The object of War is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his."

  16. #16
    I have to agree. Honestly if they would have just addressed bugs from release and not gotten into the whole balance pc's to npc's, pc professions to other pc professions in PvP issue ( which is a process that Verant should have already show never ends once you open that can of worms ), I'd have been a happy gamer

    Now onto other stuff:


    Originally posted by Kizzim
    I dont know about when you play, but elite, omni pol, and senpai are the HARDEST to find, and the most expensive.

    You think that senpai coats are worthwhile, i dont, i dont view the penalties that the suits and tanks give are THAT bad. I have to remove and put on my suit constantly but its worth the 5x as much ac as the coat gives. I mean really, your the exact 'Twinker A' class, your still forcefeeding out bad advice that went out 2 months ago. I educate people because at the high level game im tired of people rerolling because they took bad advice that people like you gave them. Its crappy to be at the top alone. [/B]
    Well I have to disagree with you. Big time. OP up to ql 125 can be found on any superior shops armor terminal, might take some shoping around, but it's out there, yes elite is more rare. Personally I mix and match them as a opifex, why? I need the sta for my brawl and health totals, I need the strenght for Brawl ( again ) and max damage ( yes it really does effect melee damage out put ). Eventually i plan to transition to Flowers just to cover the AC holes of the OP armors, but you'd never chatch me wearing sen/agi armor for any reason beyond dress up. I dont' need a high sense in my *profession*.

    You're thoughts about Tank armor are WAY off base, i don't care if it gives you more AC, if you are getting hit for min damage is all that matters, and you can do that with a Coat and STILL be able to use nano's, and like it or not, being able to use nano's is important... you know without being crit'ed when you try to take off that tank armor in the middle of a fight to heal.

    Now back when tank armor had a near -0- time to equip / dequip, you had a point, but it's not that way any more.

    The major thing that will effect choice of armor is breed, BUT profession is second to that.

    IF you where all that you claim to be... you're advice would be:

    Don't spend any ip in a stat untill you need that stat to wear armor or raise a skill, by using boosts you can even go a few levels being able to allocate IP in skills that you would otherwise not be able to spend any ip in due to stat limitations.

    You know what sucks about "being at that top" like you claim to be? Some one else will always be just little tuffer, faster, smarter or more tactically minded.

  17. #17
    I wasnt the one that started it.
    Hey, i'll turn this car RIGHT AROUND...
    /me puts kizzim in the "time out chair"
    "By the way, if anyone here is in marketing or advertising: kill yourself." --Bill Hicks
    "Have we turned into gerbils? People are paying money to walk up invisible steps over and over again." --Dennis Leary

  18. #18
    I have to agree. Honestly if they would have just addressed bugs from release and not gotten into the whole balance pc's to npc's, pc professions to other pc professions in PvP issue ( which is a process that Verant should have already show never ends once you open that can of worms ), I'd have been a happy gamer
    Then we'd have that whole "bards" situation on our hands. And that's just ugly.
    "By the way, if anyone here is in marketing or advertising: kill yourself." --Bill Hicks
    "Have we turned into gerbils? People are paying money to walk up invisible steps over and over again." --Dennis Leary

  19. #19
    Thing is, if you know X profession is hell on wheels in PvP, you avoid them, or get multiple people togather to take them down ( unlike the blue servers in EQ where you just plain couldn't ), alternately you make a very very good friend of some one of X class and help them in PvE ( for some odd reason classes never seemed to be good at both, though some did suck at both

    PS - okay so Bards rocked at both!! (but most people didn't know it

  20. #20
    Originally posted by Xombie

    Hey, i'll turn this car RIGHT AROUND...
    /me puts kizzim in the "time out chair"
    ROTFLMAO!! oh-man... I think I pee'd my pants....lol
    Zen~~'
    9/11/01

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