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Thread: Pvp Weapon standard for non pvp class

  1. #21
    yeah hhe i agree with the psychological thing. I've beengetting owned by traders since day 1 and its really annoying for me as well as others.

    Level 200 soldier, well equipped... experienced, heads to arena, tabs green trader.

    gets totally owned.

    it's rather frusterating considering the amout of time you put into your character.. and your character is not what you expected when you started it in characte creation.

    in my argument i am not really sighting specific weapons, or trying not too. its hard to put into words what im exactly trying to say.

    it's just the way AO is setup. A soldier IS a great damage dealer and half decent tank becase thats what we do, its all we do.

    the problem lies in game mechanics allowing classes with blue weapon skills to do substantial damage, not as much as a soldier per say. but enough to raise eyebrows.

    bottom line, it comes down to.. combat oriented classes cannot "learn" to tradeskill or buy tradeskill buffs, or get dots, or heals, or slows or anything of the sort.

    these classes that can tradeskill, heal, dot, debuff, slows can "learn" to use weaposn and do substantial damage.

    I'd like it so that soldiers ma's enfs (they are where they should be imo) should be a step more above docs traders engies in overall damage output because face it.. thats all we do : )


    i know this sounds like a flame.. but if you wanted a class that was really strong in pvp why do ppl choose one with green tradeskill and tradeskill buffs?
    Legion

    || 220 || || Soldier || || Obligatory Equipment listing ||


    If you are going through hell, keep going.
    -
    Sir Winston Churchill

  2. #22
    screw it 1k posts. thanks!
    Legion

    || 220 || || Soldier || || Obligatory Equipment listing ||


    If you are going through hell, keep going.
    -
    Sir Winston Churchill

  3. #23
    posted by nothinman

    whereas a soldier like myself can never have the tradeskills to ...
    I understand the argument about poor trade skills. I admit, it makes some sense. The problem with it is that it's just such a stinky trade off for the guy that has the tradeskill.

    Is his side/guild/team better off because he has the tradeskill? In theory it could be, but the fact that trade skills items are often given away or sold prevents it from being of any real advantage to those profs. Kind of like how some profs complain that essence, rrfe and gsf aren't really advantages because anyone can have them.

    If I thought they'd accept it, I'd be all for every class having viable tradeskills as a way to balance this out. Take skills that profs have as green and make them useful in tradeskills. Add in tradeskills where you need someone with green psychology to go talk an NPC into doing something. Add in tradeskills where you need someone with green ground vehicle to transport an unstable cargo.

    Do those profs want tradeskills? I think not. Would they like this as a solution? No. Why? Because it's not an acceptable trade off.
    posted by Nothinman

    then you look at docs and traders, greenish tradeskills/nanos (compared to sol) they have buffs based on tradeskills and specialsed heals to keep "others" alive. yet they are on a higher tier of pvp ownage then soldiers : )
    Please do not lump heals in with trade skills. Heals are a combat ability. I have yet to have a single player ask me to heal them while make armor for a guildee. This is why I added the top line of my sig: "Heals - they're not just for tradeskills anymore".
    posted by Nothinman

    I'd like it so that soldiers ma's enfs (they are where they should be imo) should be a step more above docs traders engies in overall damage output because face it.. thats all we do : )
    I have a su****ion here that I'd like you to confirm or deny. I think the issue is not damage output - it's winning. I doubt you care which of us does more damage as long as you get to win. There've been several posts on this forum where some people want a hierarchical PvP system: Prof A/B/C beats anyone else and prof X/Y/Z always lose. I suspect this is the direction you're heading.
    Heals - they're not just for tradeskills anymore
    Hypos omni doc RK2 <-- stupid enough to have thought that going past level 150 would help her be a better doc
    Phlair omni mp RK2 solo char
    Nerfbat omni enf RK2 awarded the hammer of braveness
    Shadow Ops

  4. #24
    heh, grats on the forum ding
    Heals - they're not just for tradeskills anymore
    Hypos omni doc RK2 <-- stupid enough to have thought that going past level 150 would help her be a better doc
    Phlair omni mp RK2 solo char
    Nerfbat omni enf RK2 awarded the hammer of braveness
    Shadow Ops

  5. #25
    In a lot of ways though, this is the direction the game is headed. Docs and traders aren't getting "nerfed" in the damage department, per se, but with weapons like the EQB and the high end soldier-only assault rifles... just being left alone with the same abilities we've always had is going to work out like a nerf, at least for Docs. Player damage is going up. The amount of hitpoints available to people is going up.

    Our heals aren't going up. It's only a matter of time, Nothinman, before the balance point is passed and people will be reliably outdamaging our healing abilities and we'll be considered "balanced" - meaning, we'll effectively have been nerfed and a bunch of us will quit.

    The biggest mistake I see Funcom having made, from a balancing perspective, was introducing these high-end weapons as unique drops, rather than making them more accessible. Because once the Docs start quitting, you all won't be able to kill the uniques to get your uberweapons anymore.
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
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  6. #26
    Originally posted by Hypos
    I understand the argument about poor trade skills. I admit, it makes some sense. The problem with it is that it's just such a stinky trade off for the guy that has the tradeskill.

    -Please dont take this as a flame. but i chose a soldier to be good at pvp, choosing a tradeskill class for the same reason is illogical. dont buy a hummer then expect it to be a ferrari too : )


    Is his side/guild/team better off because he has the tradeskill? In theory it could be, but the fact that trade skills items are often given away or sold prevents it from being of any real advantage to those profs. Kind of like how some profs complain that essence, rrfe and gsf aren't really advantages because anyone can have them.

    -Like i said, people chose classes with specialisations other then pure combat. and then expect to be better at combat then ones that are specialised in it : P


    If I thought they'd accept it, I'd be all for every class having viable tradeskills as a way to balance this out. Take skills that profs have as green and make them useful in tradeskills. Add in tradeskills where you need someone with green psychology to go talk an NPC into doing something. Add in tradeskills where you need someone with green ground vehicle to transport an unstable cargo.

    -good point but it will never happen.. my whole argument revolves around some class good AT [A] others good at [C] while some can do very well in both.


    Do those profs want tradeskills? I think not. Would they like this as a solution? No. Why? Because it's not an acceptable trade off.Please do not lump heals in with trade skills. Heals are a combat ability. I have yet to have a single player ask me to heal them while make armor for a guildee. This is why I added the top line of my sig: "Heals - they're not just for tradeskills anymore".


    -again : ) if htey didnt want tradeskills, why choose a class specialising in them and get mad because they cant destroy combat classses? (tho they do)


    I have a su****ion here that I'd like you to confirm or deny. I think the issue is not damage output - it's winning. I doubt you care which of us does more damage as long as you get to win. There've been several posts on this forum where some people want a hierarchical PvP system: Prof A/B/C beats anyone else and prof X/Y/Z always lose. I suspect this is the direction you're heading.
    hehe nah.. for me personally its not about winning, id be happy just to make a doc or trader sweat a little instead of laughing at the blood red soldier attacking them before pounding them down into the ground : )
    Legion

    || 220 || || Soldier || || Obligatory Equipment listing ||


    If you are going through hell, keep going.
    -
    Sir Winston Churchill

  7. #27
    posted by Nothinman

    -Please dont take this as a flame. but i chose a soldier to be good at pvp, choosing a tradeskill class for the same reason is illogical. dont buy a hummer then expect it to be a ferrari too : )
    There are different skills to bring to bear in PvP. If you want a straightforward combat specialist to have an advantage in straightforward 1 on 1 combat, I can understand that. But then there must be other things that effect combat where the less straightforward skills can prevail. If you're fighting a crat, then maybe you have to fight your way through his minions first to soften you up enough to make the 1 on 1 fight even, that kind of thing.

    Any game that creates a "always win" side and an "always lose" side is inherently broken.
    posted by Nothinman

    id be happy just to make a doc or trader sweat a little
    I've got absolutely no problem with giving all profs a chance in combat. I actually prefer it. Just don't lock anyone out because they have a non-combat skill that was used to improve your character just as much as it did theirs. I guess this is just going to be a point of disagreement between us.

    I'd like to mention, again, something I said that kinda got dropped. Heals are a combat ability. If inflicting damage is combat a combat skill, then so is healing damage.
    Heals - they're not just for tradeskills anymore
    Hypos omni doc RK2 <-- stupid enough to have thought that going past level 150 would help her be a better doc
    Phlair omni mp RK2 solo char
    Nerfbat omni enf RK2 awarded the hammer of braveness
    Shadow Ops

  8. #28
    Originally posted by Hypos
    Heals are a combat ability. If inflicting damage is combat a combat skill, then so is healing damage.
    Agree, but heals come with full effect while all damage (except damage shield) is halved. With uber init debuffs, stackable dots, good damage from AS, full heals and, if properly equipped, a near endless pool of nano; docs should have had their pvp strength reduced long time ago.

    Traders debuff line might also be a tad overpowered, but atleast the trader is gank bait and will die fast if overextending himself.

    One could go into detail about the merits of most professions in pvp. But to have these two professions be near masters of combat is unfortunate in my opinion. To enhance already strong pvp'ers like enforcers and soldiers is a bad move cause in a game totally dominated with combat, there must be a certain cross profession balance. This can only be achieved by nerfs and/or boosting of other professions.

    Flame me if you will but an impartial person knows these inbalances are real and likely to ruin the game in the long run.
    Seraphael - 200 fixer
    Pepzi - ** agent
    Troxitazz - retired trader

  9. #29
    Originally posted by Fryli





    Yea, and as the description of my profession tells me: A doc that can turn my knowledge of living tissue into a deadly weapons.




    But you use a shotgun, or used to at least? Aimedshot people for 40%? No? AM I wrong? Since when last did you use your combat (nanos) Or dots to kill someone, without using your shotgun.

    Okay okay It may be possible on a NT Or something since they cant heal it up, but seriously.

    Your bull****ting me, you use a weapon to kill people.


    And no, too all those who said I want nerfs. I dont. Look, NO NERFS!:P

  10. #30
    Originally posted by Riokou



    But you use a shotgun, or used to at least? Aimedshot people for 40%? No? AM I wrong? Since when last did you use your combat (nanos) Or dots to kill someone, without using your shotgun.

    Okay okay It may be possible on a NT Or something since they cant heal it up, but seriously.
    Aimshot ppl for 40%, yea maybe i do it 1-2 out of 10 times. If you knew anything about the game i suppose you would know that there is no shotgun around that can compete with Supernova when it comes to dealing caped (40%) AS almost every time it hits. Second to Supernova is prolly X-3, and both these weapons have slow recharge on AS.

    Dot's are a only good to add up some dmg now, with the introduction of new hp items/hp armor/hp towers/virus-scanners they are pretty nerfed atm. In the begining they was damn good at killing ppl, there was almost none that could survive me stacking the 2 top end dot's. You as a Enfo shhould not even dare complain about AS, with the uber weapons you have gotten during the last paches... weapons that cap on 40% on ordinary hits agains i.e "NT Or something since they cant heal it up..."

    Your bull****ting me, you use a weapon to kill people.
    Yea i do, and why shoud i not...? cant see anyone disabled at using handheld weapons just becaue they are named Engi, NT or Doctor. As a Doc i cant use these weapon as good as those professions with higer skill tho, so it sort of balance it out in the end. More and more weapons are also introdused to be profession spesific, and capping nt's, doc's, enigies, crats even more in the damage department compared to you as a enfo. None of these professions have been given new professionspesific stuff to compete.(NT's have been given som nukes, but they still need to use handheld weapons)

    And no, too all those who said I want nerfs. I dont. Look, NO NERFS!:P
    Doesnt matter if you make a statement like that, your posts in a lot of treads pretty much tell us your agenda. You care less about balance and other professions, all you want is for your profession to be the nr 1 profession in PvP/PvM.
    Last edited by Fryli; Jan 18th, 2003 at 12:01:03.

  11. #31
    posted by Riokou

    And no, too all those who said I want nerfs. I dont. Look, NO NERFS!:P
    posted by Riokou

    ****ing Doctor loser, I hope they freaking gimp your weapon functions.
    Heals - they're not just for tradeskills anymore
    Hypos omni doc RK2 <-- stupid enough to have thought that going past level 150 would help her be a better doc
    Phlair omni mp RK2 solo char
    Nerfbat omni enf RK2 awarded the hammer of braveness
    Shadow Ops

  12. #32
    Originally posted by Fryli


    Yea i do, and why shoud i not...? cant see anyone disabled at using handheld weapons just becaue they are named Engi, NT or Doctor. As a Doc i cant use these weapon as good as those professions with higer skill tho, so it sort of balance it out in the end. More and more weapons are also introdused to be profession spesific, and capping nt's, doc's, enigies, crats even more in the damage department compared to you as a enfo. None of these professions have been given new professionspesific stuff to compete.(NT's have been given som nukes, but they still need to use handheld weapons)
    My point being that if you can use a shotgun/Ar/ whatever weapon close to as good as other classes, why cant other classes use heals almost as good as you?

    game mechanics allow classes that have weak weapon skills to, with effort, come close to classes that are based only on combat. wheres combat classes (read classes with green attack skills) cannot learn to heal or drain etc with any amount of work.

    flaw in game mechanics or the way FC wants it, who knows.
    Legion

    || 220 || || Soldier || || Obligatory Equipment listing ||


    If you are going through hell, keep going.
    -
    Sir Winston Churchill

  13. #33
    nothin try pvp somewhere else than omni-ent arena, may be you will see that soldiers are not as bad as you try to say
    neophyte Kromoz 200 gimp

    yes traders eat babies

  14. #34
    Originally posted by Kromoz
    nothin try pvp somewhere else than omni-ent arena, may be you will see that soldiers are not as bad as you try to say
    Kromoz, you really want to reopen that old Kaehler Sleeves wound again?

    I wonder, do any soldiers triple implant and buff Nano Resist, and fight on 0% Agg/Def in duels with Traders (those that did not pre-drain of course)? Should make it impossible for a Trader to land a Plunder and if you're lucky it might be a few casts before a Deprive sticks. And if the duel is self-buffed that Soldier should be much better off I'd think.
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  15. #35
    i dont pvp anymore at all period. thats not what this thread is about, its more about game mechanics.

    most of my mass pvp experiences have been so laggy that it doesnt matter anyways.

    this thread is merely addressing the fact that there are imperfections/imbalances in AO that let some classes be extremely strong compared to others.

    and i still do not hink soldiers are that great in mass pvp like people say.. assuming theres no TMS killing guns, we can soak up damage, we can deal it .. not bad..

    traders, docs, nt's, agents.. well imo only the melee classes have it really bad in mass pvp, maybe engies as well.


    it's beside the point. what im addressing for one, is that you as a trader have amazing tradeskills and tradeskill buffs, AND dominate soldiers and other classes like us in pvp.

    IF you can't make any usefull comments don't respond...
    Legion

    || 220 || || Soldier || || Obligatory Equipment listing ||


    If you are going through hell, keep going.
    -
    Sir Winston Churchill

  16. #36

  17. #37
    Originally posted by Hypos
    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    posted by Riokou

    And no, too all those who said I want nerfs. I dont. Look, NO NERFS!:P
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    posted by Riokou

    ****ing Doctor loser, I hope they freaking gimp your weapon functions.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    that deserves another quote
    Fetamysicist
    Sentinull
    Phix001

  18. #38
    Eh? Why are you quoting that.

  19. #39
    lool doh!

    *Can anyone get that filthy-mouthed girl banned?*
    So long,

    Tom Nightwish Callagher; Rk3's first lvl200 pvp/tradeskillzzz Trader eqp - Status Bored *g*
    Shorty Instantkill McPot; lvl 200 Agent Rk3 eqp - One Man Army
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    Tom Nightwish Demesa; Trader on Rk2

  20. #40
    Originally posted by Nothinman


    My point being that if you can use a shotgun/Ar/ whatever weapon close to as good as other classes, why cant other classes use heals almost as good as you?

    game mechanics allow classes that have weak weapon skills to, with effort, come close to classes that are based only on combat. wheres combat classes (read classes with green attack skills) cannot learn to heal or drain etc with any amount of work.

    flaw in game mechanics or the way FC wants it, who knows.
    A doc will never be able to get an attack rating close to that of a soldier.

    Triple implanted at level 200 base attack rating is 900, add token board and you are looking at 1050 or so.

    Soldier attack rating in the 1300s or higher.

    Docs have blue evades where soldiers are green.

    Sure heals compensate and overcompensate the damage differential but a doc and never get his weapon skill close to that of a ranged professional like a soldier, fixer or adventurer.

    On the mass battlefield, it works better with the doc healing the soldier, that way he can kill alot more people, and weakening the doc so he goes down quicker means his teamates will die alot quicker also.
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