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Thread: Aimed Shot Recycle Time is Insane

  1. #41
    So Hermy, Tiggy was 14.6 your Agent love patch? Were you so prescient that you knew the 14.6 recharge fix would cut in half your Aimed Shot recharge times? Did you lobby for this fix? Face it, you had no clue this would happen. Now you got it and you think fixing it is a massive nerf you can't handle.

    That was completely UNINTENDED by FC. Frankly I love it for PvM. But this discussion is about AS recycle time and in effect all recycle time of specials in PvP. AS and Burst were the biggest benefactors since every 33 pts of AS and 25 pts of Burst skill reduces your refresh by 1 sec.

    You liked your AS just fine before 14.6, after 14.6 you love it but 11 or 12 sec recharge of AS in PvP is just insane.

    Oh sure you love rolling out the few times you get a small AS and keep quiet about your 40% hits and crit nanos. Tell me how many people say Burst, Flingshot, or even Full Auto gets a 40% hit? Zippo. Look, I am for keeping your AS multiples and crit nanos. It is just the recycle time that is ridiculous.
    Autocratt Atrox Bureaucrat 200
    Current PvP Armor Setup
    Seraphfirst Nanomage MP 175 Current Fire Reflect Armor Setup (67%)

    Suggestions for Revising the Bureaucrat Profession
    1) Charming our own Droids
    2) A fear, and area snare as good as the enforcer's and fixer's
    3) New super short mez nanos and mez nano init changes for PvP
    4) The nuke changes
    5) Highly increased range on speech nanos

  2. #42
    Sanskrit,

    Fireontheway and at least 2 other of which I cannot recall the name was using an Alsaqri with a 250 VE. Firing 1/1 with 1100+ AS skill, 14-15 second recharge and plenty of 10K hits. Pretty neat setup for PvM I thought.
    Autocratt Atrox Bureaucrat 200
    Current PvP Armor Setup
    Seraphfirst Nanomage MP 175 Current Fire Reflect Armor Setup (67%)

    Suggestions for Revising the Bureaucrat Profession
    1) Charming our own Droids
    2) A fear, and area snare as good as the enforcer's and fixer's
    3) New super short mez nanos and mez nano init changes for PvP
    4) The nuke changes
    5) Highly increased range on speech nanos

  3. #43
    Actually My AS recharge time is a little under 80 second. I use an x-3 in PvM and PvP. If you don’t know why I use an X-3 in PvP then you really need to talk to an agent or two rather than just basing your entire position on a rather approximate estimation of how recycle times are calculated. don’t try to tell me that 80 seconds is ridiculously fast… n00b!

    Catawauls are by no means the be all and end all in PvP. AS is by no means the way we win at PvP. Bearing in mind that the x-3 will do over 1000 pts more damage on a crit than a cat and it fires nearly half a second faster I can get 5 crits out of my concentration with an x-3 (on a good day). I use the AS then if there is anything left. I never open with an AS and I never get 2 in any single combat. I know others use the Cat just so they have a chance at getting 2 AS on a target; well good for them, there is noting stopping you from emulating their example. But the cat does lame regular damage compared to the x-3 and as the bulk of shots dished out in PvP are regular hits and not AS’s or concentration boosted crits in my view the Cat it is a false economy. Clearly you think it is an uber overpowered weapon. Well equip one, use it then come back here in a couple of weeks and tell us exactly why its overpowered coz I can out damage cat users with an x-3 and an 80s recharging AS using my tactics.

    You are welcome to your opinions even though they are so far from correct, I guess the only way they are going to change is when you have equipped a Cat and used one for yourself. Until such a time I’d suggest you take note that the human being is equipped with two ears and one mouth and I would hope that you use them in that proportion next time you want to go on a fact finding mission.

    No my AS recharge time is not rediculous.

    Tiggy

  4. #44
    I too have tried using an Alsaqri in PvP and apart from the fast AS recharge it so totally sucks. Even its crit is poor and as for its AS damage, even firing it off every 15 seconds you would still do more damage with the x-3. Testing on leets is no substitute for a heavily armored and evading target. Getting 10k on leets is a common enough occurrence as to make realistic testing difficult. You need to find something a little more challenging.

    It is apparent you don’t know how AS damage is calculated but in simple terms a fast recycling AS weapon does low AS damage compared to the slower recharging guns. The weapons carry a damage values into the AS multiplier. The Cat and the Alsaqri have much smaller numbers than the x-3. You can see this happening in the number of levels (the values) of your AS damage. The cat and Alsaqri will return you 5 or 6 values other than 10k where as the x-3 only has 4, this means the x-3 hits 10k far more often than the cat or Alsaqri and bearing in mind the Pyramid analogy I gave you earlier the more levels of AS damage between x0.5 and 10k the fewer 10ks you will see, its not an arithmetic reduction either, it’s a geometric reduction. Couple this with the very poor damage that the Alsaqri does and you have a PvP set up that is totally reliant on AS as the regular damage is almost too poor to penetrate the new armors.

    Get yourself a sloughing defensive screen and yon AS junkie will waste 30+ seconds trying to beat down your defenses before being able to land any damage worth talking about. Frankly if you can’t dispatch them in that time then you really do deserve to die (in the subsequent 30 seconds). Me and my x-3 don’t have that problem, I’m not AS reliant, I dish out substantial and regular damage so in 30 seconds one of us would already be dead and not a special in sight.

    Finally if you want to be a total AS junkie then get yourself an Abigail and check out its AS recharge time. Great gun for Non agents, the regular damage is too poor to consider firing it for anything other than its AS, an ideal compliment to Nukes.

    Originally posted by Autocrat/Seraph Oh sure you love rolling out the few times you get a small AS and keep quiet about your 40% hits and crit nanos. Tell me how many people say Burst, Flingshot, or even Full Auto gets a 40% hit? Zippo. Look, I am for keeping your AS multiples and crit nanos. It is just the recycle time that is ridiculous.
    Burst and fling don’t go as high as 40% so I guess that would be none, but then again (uncannily) the recycle on both is much faster than AS. Some bursts recycle in under 4 seconds (I seen fixers bursting every other shot).

    As for the “few” times I don’t get a max 40% AS…???? Go back and read the damn posts I have made and stop being so facetious…. 2 ears, 1 mouth! Without blowing my own trumpet, so to speak, I know far more about this topic than you do and you could do a lot worse than taking on-board the things I have said.

    Had enough trying to educate you on the merits of various AS weapons, just keep ranting and don’t try one for yourself, sure we will all listen to you and take you seriously. I am beginning to wonder if you acquired those alleged characters in your sig from E-bay.

    i think this thread may be aimed at you.

    Tiggy

    ps. civil questions receive civil answers, stupid statements will be abused.

  5. #45
    Originally posted by Autocrat/Seraph
    Sanskrit,
    Fireontheway and at least 2 other of which I cannot recall the name was using an Alsaqri with a 250 VE. Firing 1/1 with 1100+ AS skill, 14-15 second recharge and plenty of 10K hits. Pretty neat setup for PvM I thought.
    I'll assure you that is not Fire's normal mission rig. Agents go full agg in missions because they can and suffer no consequences, and thus use the slow big damage guns like the x3 and Cat. An agent post level 130 going through a team mission in full defense with an Al Saqri or Zastaba is either a) testing something or b) purposefully underachieving for some reason.

    Here is how your "thinking" in this thread could be applied to any class:

    Autocratt could bring two Tertius Bullies to a tower to fight for him, how much damage could that do? OMG the two Bullies a bot and Autocratt could theoretically dish out over 15,000 damage in 3 seconds ; that's just insane! No class should be able to kill anyone else in 3 seconds. Autocratt is completely unbalanced. Nerf charms! Look if you can come up with a legitimate REASON to nerf AS, and "The recycle time is just insane!" ain't it, then perhaps I'd discuss this more reasonably, but as it is you have shown yourself to be just another of the countless nerf-crying hordes who come here with a half baked conception that something should be nerfed because you just don't like it. Pffft.


    Nice total pass on the rest of my replies; I expect more from you.

  6. #46
    Upon further reflection, with 1170 AS skill, I can only remeber a couple of 40% AS in tower battles out of the dozens, maybe hundreds, I have fired over the last couple of weeks.

    Once I got a 7800 AS in pvp and was like "WOOT!" A short time later I realized that I had tabbed a demon by mistake, in fact due to a bug in NW it was a demon belonging to my org mate. This is the closest I have come to an uber AS in PvP... pretty pathetic. But according to your logic I should be mowing people down with an AS every 10 seconds.

    You also conveniently skip over the fact that agents who get those uber high AS skills have totally nerfed their ranged init to get it and will never kill anything with slow low regular damage.

    In PvP, IMO, it is a tossup between an X3 and a TIM with an AS every 40 sec and a Cat and a VE and an "insane" AS recycle. What do you conclude from Tiggy's posts? Perhaps that not every successful agent relies on AS?? Because I know that it is unlikely that I will ever actually kill something outright in mass PvP, I prefer the CAT. I usually unconceal, root; AS; DOT; mass snare; unaggro; reconceal; rinse repeat. What am I in mass PvP? A killer of the weak and someone who can make you run away for 20-30 seconds. Not a recipe for uber domination, but it keeps my scrawny ass alive for another round and the key in these battles is whoever can keep the most people in the CC area wins. The minute I stand up and try to battle ANY profession to death in mass PvP is the minute of my death. I think many other agents would agree.

  7. #47
    Take it easy Sanskrit, at least you have some semblance of civility unlike Tiggy and her insecure Rush Limbaugh imitation that is too pathetic to warrant a reply. You posted alot to respond to so let me boil this down.

    I am only concerned about the Aimed Shot and specials recycling calculation. Thanks to the "education" I don't want to change AS damage multiples. But we know 14.6 gave an unexpected benefit to all specials in much shorter recycling times.

    Doesn't matter what weapon you use. MCS capped at 8 sec Burst, Caterwaul at 12 sec, etc. 14.6 greatly benefitted weapons with short recharge specials and in effect nerfed characters who spent lots of IP and imps to boost AMS and inits. Great for PvM no doubt and I don't want to change that.

    But in PvP since almost all specials hit (don't think you can evade a special except Full Auto), 14.6 boosted the classes with really poor Dark Blue weapon skills that could never achieve high AMS. But hey, now I don't really need AMS when I could wield a fast recycling specials weapon. And Agg/Def setting does not affect specials recharge so a nuker can go 0% Agg/Def and still drop an Aimed Shot every 12 sec plus instanuke every 2 seconds.

    Doubling recycling time of specials for PvP only, won't hurt you much if you use an X-3 anyway. In a 30 sec fight an X-3 gets off one AS, a Cat 3, MCS 4. Double recycling time and the X-3 still gets 1 whereas the Cat goes down to 2 and MCS to 2. You didn't lose anything in that situation. If you want to reduce the total damage output from rifle/MCS wielding NT's well this hurts them more than you in PvP.

    I am not a nerfmonger, heck you know as a caster I can easily take advantage of the situation with a QL 200 Cat, 250 VE, Recompiler and sit back on 0% Agg/Def and AS you at 40m every 14.5 sec. As an Atrox crat I can get buffed up to 902 AMS with 983 Aimed Shot skill and an 11.5% crit chance. My normal ROF may suck but I can use Rule of One or one my of instanukes while keeping 996 Nano Resist.

    (Pets, come on they easily get rooted, snared, feared, mezzed, charmed or simply get lost in the terrain. Might be good for busting a tower and causing confusion.)

    P.S. A TL6 capped opifex Agent doesn't need a VE to get AS recycle down to 16 sec on a Cat. 600(Base)+128(Sense)+42(Imp)+150(TTS and Exp)+23(TIM Scope)=943 ~15.7 sec refresh.

    Ah well, maybe I just go Cat or MCS and forget this. I'd be nerfing Crats more than Agents with this in PvP.
    Autocratt Atrox Bureaucrat 200
    Current PvP Armor Setup
    Seraphfirst Nanomage MP 175 Current Fire Reflect Armor Setup (67%)

    Suggestions for Revising the Bureaucrat Profession
    1) Charming our own Droids
    2) A fear, and area snare as good as the enforcer's and fixer's
    3) New super short mez nanos and mez nano init changes for PvP
    4) The nuke changes
    5) Highly increased range on speech nanos

  8. #48
    Autocrat you just aren't getting it are you. AS is all agents have. That's it. We can conceal, root, AE snare, and AS followed by a few crits (which when fighting someone with high evades you have to HIT first in order to crit).

    Now take the X-3, it already recycles *very* slowly. At 150 I get in 1 AS every OTHER fight. Which means, I either have to sit out concealed or run for about 1 minute *after* the fight until AS recharges, or try and fight someone w/o AS. (As an agent that will probably end up with you at reclaim)

    Now, Cat's only have AS. That's it. They're damage output is significantly lower, their crit damage is significantly lower, and their delay is higher. If you equip a Cat, you darn well better AS a lot.

    I don't understand why you are complaining about an X-3 and Cat when something like an Ithaca is around.

    You nerf aim shot you kill agents as a class. Personally I wouldn't shed a tear seeing X-3's and cat's become Agent only. Maybe that would solve your problem.

    "Yes Soldier, Adventurer, Trader, Fixer, non-rifle Agent can have higher AS than a rifle Agent, no argument there."

  9. #49
    Originally posted by Silvs

    "Yes Soldier, Adventurer, Trader, Fixer, non-rifle Agent can have higher AS than a rifle Agent, no argument there."

    ...how could soldiers have more aimedshot skill then an agent?


    edit: oh... nm, I see. But you should note that the bright and faded AS clusters conflict for a soldier just like for an agent. *shrug*
    Last edited by Sredni; Jan 15th, 2003 at 05:37:45.
    Sredniaka Sherrmanaka Posthasteaka Thanatopsysaka Vashtareliusaka Nnerroaka Alexxander

    "Quidquid latine dictum, sit altum viditur"

    Sredni Vashtar went forth,
    His thoughts were red thoughts and his teeth were white.
    His enemies called for peace, but he brought them death.
    Sredni Vashtar the Beautiful.
    by HH Munro

  10. #50
    Originally posted by Autocrat/Seraph
    P.S. A TL6 capped opifex Agent doesn't need a VE to get AS recycle down to 16 sec on a Cat. 600(Base)+128(Sense)+42(Imp)+150(TTS and Exp)+23(TIM Scope)=943 ~15.7 sec refresh.
    Thought i'd take the trouble to come up with some hard facts for you. With a base of 715 AS I get a recycle time on a Cat of 27 seconds. With TTS and Exp and a small VE AS up to 1042, cat recycles in 16 seconds.

    So. 11 (27-16) seconds over 327 (1042-715) gives ~30pt per second

    Meaning, in order to get it down to 11 seconds you need an AS of 1200ish

    So with an AS of 943 you would be looking at a recycle of 19-20 seconds.
    Closest I could get to that value was 927 (which was giving me slightly over 20 seconds) certainly not ~15.7

    If someone wants to spend the ip’s to take their special up to 1200 then good for them. They will benefit from increased recharge in their specials. As this effects ALL specials not just AS I cant see your problem, anyone with a special that is highly skilled gets faster recycle times whether that is FA, Burst, Fling, Dimach, brawl, sneak attack, AS etc. You can’t single AS out for Nerfing (which despite your claim to the contrary is exactly what you are suggesting) without also “doing the same” to ALL other specials. Either one sounds like a nerf to me, singling out AS all on its own is an outright nerf attack on my profession and no one else.

    Originally posted by Autocrat/Seraph
    I am not a nerfmonger, heck you know as a caster I can easily take advantage of the situation with a QL 200 Cat, 250 VE, Recompiler and sit back on 0% Agg/Def and AS you at 40m every 14.5 sec. As an Atrox crat I can get buffed up to 902 AMS with 983 Aimed Shot skill and an 11.5% crit chance. My normal ROF may suck but I can use Rule of One or one my of instanukes while keeping 996 Nano Resist.
    Frankly if you wanted to sit on full def while trying to cast an “insta nuke” (kind of a contradiction in terms when you are in full def) and rely on your AS then go for it! once it gets negated by a SDS and your basic skill is so poor its less than your opponents evades on full agg and you’re unable to cast fast enough to take him down while he rattles shot after shot into you because he has spent ips in inits and weapon skill, then be my guest. (I’m pretty sure you aint getting nukes off every 2 seconds on full def) I don’t feel at all bad about maxing my inits, using a tim scope and 3 rifle clusters.

    The only real way to deal with this perceived “issue” of yours is to make all serious rifles like Cats and X-3’s agent only, or to require conceal in equal or greater amounts than AS in order to fire it off (on rifles only, so that only the truly brave non agent would even attempt to use one) neither of these options are going to happen. So either spend the ip’s and get a Cat or find another weapon that you like and work on getting its specials into an “Uber” state.

    I do agree with you that pets in PvP are fairly useless (apart from a fully tooled up slayer) but as they only account for a third of your combat abilities (you have nukes, CC nanos and a weapon too) the fact that they get rooted, mezed and otherwise disabled is more an inconvenience than a life threatening situation. Nerfing my AS is a life threatening situation as I have to rely on it. I don’t have the options available to me that you do. The suggestion of doubling the recharge time on the AS of an x-3 makes my skin crawl. There is no way I’m waiting 150 seconds for an AS recharge. Im already gimped enough on the AS/rifle clusters front thank you very much.

    Enough already with AS nerfs. I will not put up with this kind of petty winging from a non agent player when AS is the Only viable option I have in my profession. Please feel free to come up with another suggestion as long as it doesn’t take anything away from the agent profession as it stands. It isnt like there are hoards of Agents with Nephalite titles, go beat up on the doc’s and traders plenty of Nef titles amongst them.

    Tiggy

    ps who is Rush Limbaugh?

  11. #51
    You don't have to be a clearvoyant to see a change coming to specials...

    To be more specific, I have yet to receive a AS of less then 40% in PvP. Usually while the dude doing the AS is at no risk at all. So no, AS is not all agents got, they also have roots. So the argument falls.

    The best indication on if something is unbalanced is by looking at what people actually use. Right now its weapons with specials. And its ranged weapons with AS. Is that the kind of game you want? Where every profession uses the same weapon? Funcom got a freaking big job ahead, trying to get straight the mess they created with NW. To ensure that professions keep their uniqeness, and not just become a semi-gimped

  12. #52
    Frankly if you wanted to sit on full def while trying to cast an “insta nuke” (kind of a contradiction in terms when you are in full def) and rely on your AS then go for it! once it gets negated by a SDS and your basic skill is so poor its less than your opponents evades on full agg and you’re unable to cast fast enough to take him down while he rattles shot after shot into you because he has spent ips in inits and weapon skill, then be my guest. (I’m pretty sure you aint getting nukes off every 2 seconds on full def) I don’t feel at all bad about maxing my inits, using a tim scope and 3 rifle clusters.
    Case #1: Two steps forward. Nuke, AS, calm, two steps back. Follow, and your hit by the 3 other standing in front of him. Or just root the dude, he can't follow you then huh?

    Case #2: See that dude with 50% HP? two steps forward, Nuke, AS, normal hit, dead dude.

    None of them got anything to do with recycle time. In the hands of an agent, its a class defining skill, in the hand of some other professions, the recycle will be overpowering.

    So my question is, why shouldnt AS take armor into account? How about a timer on the attack cycle of a AS, its after all a aimed shot, not a hip shot...

  13. #53
    Originally posted by Snublefot
    You don't have to be a clearvoyant to see a change coming to specials...

    To be more specific, I have yet to receive a AS of less then 40% in PvP. Usually while the dude doing the AS is at no risk at all. So no, AS is not all agents got, they also have roots. So the argument falls.

    The best indication on if something is unbalanced is by looking at what people actually use. Right now its weapons with specials. And its ranged weapons with AS. Is that the kind of game you want? Where every profession uses the same weapon? Funcom got a freaking big job ahead, trying to get straight the mess they created with NW. To ensure that professions keep their uniqeness, and not just become a semi-gimped
    You have yet to receive a AS for less than 40% of your health? This is a ridiculous claim, its not often I hit for 40% with caterwaul and 1200+ AS skill, its something I get maybe 1/5 shots or less.

    Btw your an advent you can heal for 967-1193 every 5sec, in addition you can instantly heal yourself for 1413-1455 with 0 recharge every 27sec. My avg Caterwaul AS hits for maybe 1200-1800PvP with 1200AS skill and 1150atk, every 12sec. All other shots are usually 200-400 dmg, but the Caterwaul is slow and very far from 1/1 with the scope needed to get that high AS skill. Seriously if anything is unbalanced its not aimedshot, its heals.

    If anyone can hit 40% in PvP most of the time its soldiers using supernova, not caterwaul users:

    http://auno.org/ao/db.php?cmd=view&id=122595&t=ag

    Compare the dmg on that thing to dmg on the caterwaul...

  14. #54
    Btw your an advent you can heal for 967-1193 every 5sec
    Nope. Its min heal most of the time, and most likely while you need a max heal. A more realistic heal is 550 every 5s.

    I know what hits me, and I know what I heal for. Obviously I've not been hit by you...

  15. #55
    I'll correct myself there is a error in the description of highest adv heal, min heal is 697 not 967. But if you claim you heal for only minimum thats just as absurd as your claim of never getting hit for less than 40%hp by aimedshot.

  16. #56
    I'll correct myself there is a error in the description of highest adv heal, min heal is 697 not 967. But if you claim you heal for only minimum thats just as absurd as your claim of never getting hit for less than 40%hp by aimedshot.
    Ehem. There is test proving that heals in AO have a higher probablity of doing min then max.

    When I scroll back up my damage list while sitting at reclaim, there is always (something like 19 out of 20 anyway...) two things in common. I was rooted. Then I was hit by a variety of specials. AS is always (and alway in the context of 9/10) 2.something. Depending on what buffs I was using. You want to know why the Kin of Tarasque is useless? It only means the specials will hit for 5.6K instead of 2.8.

    The game would be on its way to something better if melee classes had defense agains chain rooters (that means anything below 80% resist is useless), NT's get their hand held thingy to do damage (and the subsequent nerf of their present top nukes to prevent them from ignoring the new items and use a sniper rifle instead), that docs would need a similar item(+2k to nano init...) to use CH and better heals (with the addition of a more powerfull dots, a better single nuke), introduce a way to ensure that the road to the pet owner was trough the pet...

    The tread starts with a complaint about AS, but the solution might not be to nerf AS, even if specials play a too large role in present PvP (and uniqe camping...), but to ensure that not all can use AS (or weapons at all...), and keep their full profession abilities.

  17. #57
    Originally posted by Snublefot
    In the hands of an agent, its a class defining skill, in the hand of some other professions, the recycle will be overpowering.
    At last, a worthy and valid point! well put, 100% agreement from this corner. agents have been complaining about other profs using x-3’s and Cats since they were introduced. I think I mentioned it earlier in the disparity of damage output between an x-3 wielding NT/doc/mp/crat and an x-3 wielding agent.

    That is the problem, not AS or how fast it recycles, but who it is recycling for at the increased rate. I don’t think anyone here has a problem with an agent having his prof defining weapon recycle faster, but the fact that ANYONE can get this benefit. This is the issue which needs to be addressed, making profession defining specials recycle faster for only the defining profession. Eg, AS for agents, burst for fixers, all ranged specials for soldiers. All Melee specials for enforcers and MA’s and fling for everyone. That is certainly something my agent could live with and my NT wouldn’t have any objection to that either as his rifle (a gripo) is only there to add some ranged firepower whilst waiting out nano recycles (also to point him at the pvp target).

    It would be interesting to hear what the original tread poster thinks of that.

    Tiggy

  18. #58
    I use X-3 in PvM and PvP.

    I suppose I could use Cat but it contradicts my game style. With smaller hits and faster special recycle its more good for a style that soldiers play, ie open, shoot till other one drops

    I use X-3. I start usually with AS (and even then I almost never hit for 40%) then throw root, hit concentration and crit, crit, crit, root... evaluate situation.

    If at this point opponent is over 20% health (whatever my health is is no issue) I run. Why I run? Because even with 950 Evades Agents are basically sitting ducks after they are seen and go down FAST without heals/TMS ability.

    And yes, many times opponents have still over 20% health after this combo...

    My normal AS hit is 2700. Dont remember what I hit last night CAV battles except that I hit 2700 for Hunter06 when he was harassing poor little soldiers That took his mind off from them...

    What happened? He instantly replied with 2200 Burst... Huge difference in damage? I dont think so. Anyways neither killed each other and I think both ran same time to opposite directions heh.

    Zarch and da char including Agent Daquis

    PS.

    Was a fun fight. Thanks for Omnis/Clanners for making it such.
    Last edited by Zarch; Jan 15th, 2003 at 17:04:49.

  19. #59
    Tiggy: They could perhaps nerf agents just a little, cause they make such funny noises when that happens

  20. #60
    My normal AS hit is 2700
    Would be pretty close to 40% of a nonessence, non-forcer/atrox toon.

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