>> Tank's tweaking <<

[Xaielao]

Great ideas.. I like it. You state that Tank armor should provide the best AC bonus.. hands down. Everyone here knows that's the way it should be.

You also mentioned Backpacks with 'worthwile' modifiers.. well they are comming in the next patch (13.60) and include such packs as

Black Button: +5 to all Spying skills.

Cold Front: +280 Cold AC

Mountain Top: +10 NanoC. Init +20 Max Nano

Sniper: +10 Ranged Init +2 RangeInc. Weapons


Now granted these aren't DRAMATIC increases.. but they are nice. They require 200 in Adventuring.. (another reason to raise the skill) and don't cost an arm and a leg at the level you can start using them (30+).

[____________Ejeckted]

yeah,
i know that packs with mods are coming,
that's why i said nice idea .. but poorly implemented.

the problem is the mods are pathetic (bordering on retarded)
and noone would ever consider sacrificing AC for them.

that's the point im trying to bash everyone over the head with.

balanced items mean tough choices.
if the choices are easy, there is an imbalance somewhere.

all a designer has to do is put himself in the position of the player
and ask himself which he would chose.
if the choice is obvious, keep tweaking/rebalancing until it's not.

[Downsizr]

Mmmh.... how to put it simply.
I don't think that there is any relation with my 101 Enforcer longing for his Tank and the presence of some backpack toys.

Well, my Crat will love them if the Adv required is not insane. But really there is no relation with the Tank issue.

[____________Ejeckted]

Originally posted by Gummizluv
Mmmh.... how to put it simply.
I don't think that there is any relation with my 101 Enforcer longing for his Tank and the presence of some backpack toys.

Well, my Crat will love them if the Adv required is not insane. But really there is no relation with the Tank issue.

well, Gummi,
as an enforcer, playing the meatshield role in teams,
you would probably choose Tank/AC for your backslot.

But what about a Fixer?
would you choose tank armor for AC with -evade penalties?
or a coat for AC with -nanodelta or whatever 'con' that should have?
or a backpack with +50 runspeed and +25 evades?

or an MP?
nanocloak for AC with -nanopool penalty,
or backpack with +30 ncu?

NT?
nanocloak for AC with -nanopool penalty,
or backpack with +25 nanoresist and +50 nano init?

that's the sort of choice FC should give/force upon players
via items with balanced pros and cons.

I think those H.R.Giger-esqe nano chests just look awesome,
but you never see them because they're always covered.

not only enforcers are suffering from uniformity.

[Downsizr]

I am very concerned with uniformity when I see 80% of the players past 50 in a Coat. I am not only looking at Enforcers. My little Crat will not wear Tank or Decus coat. I am fed up with them.

Now +50 run speed is ok. Up to level 40, then really ...

But if you like the backpacks more power to you.
Its' just that nearly every profession have to take some damage from time to time, and the huge AC boost of coats is vital.

Now grid armor or Crat's armor shows that other options exist. Let's go further exploring them, but really the next patch backpacks are just toys atm.

[____________Ejeckted]

agreed. the backpacks now are just silly.
noone would consider them over armor.

perhaps their modifiers and requirements
should scale like tank/coats do?

eg.

QL100 tank armor = 500AC -negative 50runspeed -100 evades
QL100 'journeyman' backpack =+100 runspeed +100 evades
(req 400pts in adventuring skill to wear)
QL100 nano-cloak = 400AC -negative 200nanopool
QL100 'nano-hive' backpack = +50nanoresist +100nanoinit
(req 300pts in adventuring skill to wear)


QL200 tank armor = 1000AC -negative 100runspeed -200 evades
QL200 'journeyman' backpack =+200 runspeed +200 evades
(req 800pts in adventuring skill to wear)
QL200 nano-cloak = 800AC -negative 400nanopool
QL200 'nano-hive' backpack = +100nanoresist +200nanoinit
(req 600pts in adventuring skill to wear)


. . something along those lines?
just keep tweaking with benefits vs penalties vs other options
until players have real choices to make.
give players enough hard choices thru many balanced items
and it will create diversity because individuals will come to
different conclusions and make different decisions and the sum
of all those decisions will be what makes thier character unique.

we need to be offered diversity thru items now;
because diversity thru IP distribution is not happening.

[Loretta]

Hmm, how about just removing the penalties from the tank alltogether? I don't see why should the rest of the population be penilized to make things "equal" -200 to evades is an incredibly high penalty.

To put things in perspective, my agent in tank gets crit every 3rd time, while in coat doesn't get crit at all. I know, my evades are borderline for my lvl, and this could be an extreme example.

Being paranoid I think that funcom's idea was to make agility another IP sink. I don't mind because my soldier, agent, and ma benefit from agility. Alas, when we all team together, I can't even tell anyone apart anymore. Everyone has just a blue coat on.

If I see someone 50+ going to battle with a tank, I think that they are just a bad player. Having an evade penalty means that they get crit much more often, and that alone negates the +200 whatever AC they get from the tank. They may as well not wear it at all.

There are 8 different kinds of tanks, and only 3 different coats. Primus is prevalent, being the best of the 3. If this was intended, then I suggest making everyone a blue triangle just like in the grid. Will free up a lot of cpu cycles, and decrease lag...

Saw an MA in a battle suit today. I wonder how they cast self heals...

[____________Ejeckted]

Originally posted by Carrah
Hmm, how about just removing the penalties from the tank alltogether? I don't see why should the rest of the population be penilized to make things "equal" -200 to evades is an incredibly high penalty.

of course i am just making up numbers,
everything needs to tested/balanced in way i as a player cannot;
that's a devs job.
IMO -200 evade wouldnt be excessive for QL200 tank
as you would have the opportunity to raise your skills and use
implants to still have close to 1000 evades if that was your choice.
much better than double nano cost anyway. :shrug:
these are just my ideas .. but all items need to have pros and cons.
if there are only benefits and no downside then where's the choice?
that's how we got into this 'everybody in dresses' situation;
coats offer better AC and have no penalty so who wouldnt wear one?

I want no tank, no coat, no cloak to be a viable choice too,
as well as the backpacks, so you must sacrifice something
for that additional AC.

[____________Rockpitt]

"If I see someone 50+ going to battle with a tank, I think that they are just a bad player. Having an evade penalty means that they get crit much more often, and that alone negates the +200 whatever AC they get from the tank. They may as well not wear it at all."

I'm an atrox soldier and I wear tank (self equiped), tweaked out with my OP Elite and Nova. Interesting point of view you have there Carrah, that I would be a bad player just because I like to LOOK like a soldier. A coat on an atrox? I'm sure it's the height of lemming fashion but it makes an atrox look like a fruit cake. Besides, the pitiful evade penalty is more than made up for by implants. As a matter of fact I was about level 60 before I started to raise my Close Evade. This is about the time I started to notice the number of crits having a noticable effect. So I would have to question your assessment about getting crit "more often, and that alone negates the +200 whatever AC."

But back to the point. I'm still in favor of something simple like my original post. The simpler the solution the more likely it is to be implemented. As for pioneer backpacks, well they were meant to be gifts or "toys" for early players who stuck it out with Funcom. I'm not to sure that Funcom ever intended them to be an intergal part of the game, full of bonuses. That might have been a good idea but until they get tank, agi coats and nano coats balanced I'm not in favor of adding that to the mix.

[________FileNotFound]

Funcom should have just left the tank as is.

Just with the delta nano penalty. That was bad enough.

Just revert back to how it was and we'll all be happy.

In this case 'unfixing' is the 'fix'.

Nobody whined about it in beta when it had not even a delta to nano.

No nano's wore it anyway as they never had the str and sta.

The penalties are really just not needed.

[Loretta]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rockpitt

I'm an atrox soldier and I wear tank (self equiped), tweaked out with my OP Elite and Nova. Interesting point of view you have there Carrah, that I would be a bad player just because I like to LOOK like a soldier. A coat on an atrox? I'm sure it's the height of lemming fashion but it makes an atrox look like a fruit cake. Besides, the pitiful evade penalty is more than made up for by implants. As a matter of fact I was about level 60 before I started to raise my Close Evade. This is about the time I started to notice the number of crits having a noticable effect. So I would have to question your assessment about getting crit "more often, and that alone negates the +200 whatever AC."

Rockpitt, do a search on the forums about how many times I've complained about the look of the coat... I'm with you on that one.

As to crits: Go do a red mission, and try it with or without the tank armor. See how much of a difference that 200 AC does make. I dare to guess: not much.

As to evades: Mobs, however, usually crit for double the regular damage. You do the math.

Finally, I said it was an extreme example

The tank vs coat issue for my agent is mostly cosmetical one; I fight in false profession MA most of the time because I use SG, and also AC buffs that come with that profession.

As a soldier, however, soon you will start using higher-level MK shields; you will find out that as soon as you have to make a choice between MK V (with coat) and MK II (with tank), you will either forgo the tank, invest into extreme nano pool, or die often and stop leveling. That's what I referenced to when I said I think they are a bad player. The nano penalty for a soldier is too large to afford a tank.

Most of the people I know and play with these days put on tank only in towns. I do the same. And that's why this piece of armor is slowly becoming another piece of social clothing.

I've started a similar thread about 2 months ago. Eventually, I got a reply from Cosmik in which he stated that Funcom will do something to tank armor, and that Funcom cannot tell us what that something will be. Later on I've read that this will have something to do with trade skills. Uhh, Yay, now I will have to sink IP into weapon smithing skills? And how exactly is that supposed to work? I can tweak what vs what? There is nothing in the next patch/envisioned forums about it. If anyone has a link to a thread with more info, I'd appreciate it.

[Loretta]

bah double post...

[Grimjack]

In my opinion, Battledress should be the armor of choice
if you want to have high AC.

As it is now, you actually get less AC from a battlesuit than
from equal level armor.

When I found my first battlesuit, and looked at its stats,
I thought that it would go over my normal armor, since
a doubling of my AC would sometimes be worth it, given
that nano costs trippled. A hefty bonus to life would also
not be something to sneeze about, since it would soak up damage.

Tommy

[____________Rockpitt]

Well Carrah, your right, against a red the extra AC won't make difference whether your wearing a coat or tank. The fact the the mob is red is what is negating the AC not the evade. I'm aware that mobs crit for double but my early statement suggests that a minor evade penatly has no effect either. I have a Dodge skill twice as high as my Evade skill and I can't see a difference in the number of times I'm being crit'ed by either type of mob (observation is based on watching damage taken).

I'll have to take your word for it about using the Reflection Shields higher up in levels. I'm not high enough to comment yet.

I read that reply you are talking about from Cosmik. I'm wondering what happened to that idea of altering tank. Funcom?

[____________Founding]

Battlesuits should be the best form of protectiong, then Tank armour, then coats..... ALL Coats, nano etc as well.

No coat should have a penalty and the AC should remain at its current level.

However I also think Tank armour has a few problems that I have a few suggestions about.

Most people mix armour to make up for shortfalls in certain catagorys, this is particularlly try at higher levels, if people start wearing tank again your going to have a very ugly looking bunch of people.

I would personally prefer to see Tank and Battlesuits the one thing - Basically the battlesuit goes into the backslot, adds to your existing armour, covers the appearance of your armour (giving you the battlesuit look).

You then have :
1. Something that really does look like 'tank armour' - the battlesuit rather than a metal lifevest.

2. Decent protection (Halve the current battlesuit AC's should about do it.)

3. A reason to use Tank/battle armour despite its penalities (reduced run, evades and nano delta) - due to the much higher AC than coats but at signifigent penalty.

This would then a) keep the Tank/battlesuit in the hands it was mean for (no major nano class would use it - Docs, Traders, NT's etc) b) offer a reason why Tank classes would want to use it.


In finally summary :
-Remove Tank Armour.
-Make Battlesuits go in the back slot and can be worn over your existing armour.
-Keep the penalites to evades, run and nano delta.
-Halve the AC of the existing battlesuits.

[________________Lona]

Originally posted by Scumbug


well, Gummi,
as an enforcer, playing the meatshield role in teams,
you would probably choose Tank/AC for your backslot.

But what about a Fixer?
would you choose tank armor for AC with -evade penalties?
or a coat for AC with -nanodelta or whatever 'con' that should have?
or a backpack with +50 runspeed and +25 evades?

or an MP?
nanocloak for AC with -nanopool penalty,
or backpack with +30 ncu?

NT?
nanocloak for AC with -nanopool penalty,
or backpack with +25 nanoresist and +50 nano init?

that's the sort of choice FC should give/force upon players
via items with balanced pros and cons.

I think those H.R.Giger-esqe nano chests just look awesome,
but you never see them because they're always covered.

not only enforcers are suffering from uniformity.

Isnt it enough that a nanocloak have less ac then other cloaks/robes? I think nerf cloaks are a very bad idea, its much better to make new kind of cloaks, robes, backpacks etc wich give bonus.

Why not a smaler tank armor looking armor wich have no/little ac and give you more hp/nano(does anyone need more nano)/NCU/nano recharge time/etc etc...

[____________Ejeckted]

Originally posted by Sickbag

Isnt it enough that a nanocloak have less ac then other cloaks/robes? I think nerf cloaks are a very bad idea,

actually, the -negative nanopool penalty was
applied to ALL nano-armor pieces at release.
. . and i cant remember if it was broken and removed,
or if the penalty was removed when all armor was rebalanced
so that nano-armor was not uber anymore and therefore
no longer deserved a penalty. .

the reason i say give the nano-cloaks a penalty too
is that all choices need both pros and cons.

right now, there is no reason NOT to wear one,
so every nanomage is in one just like every
one else is in decus robes.. maybe if we got some
good backpack mods that would change, but I still
think wearing nothing in your backslot should be
an option too. (in this case, the benefit is no penalties)

[________________Lona]

Originally posted by Scumbug


actually, the -negative nanopool penalty was
applied to ALL nano-armor pieces at release.
. . and i cant remember if it was broken and removed,
or if the penalty was removed when all armor was rebalanced
so that nano-armor was not uber anymore and therefore
no longer deserved a penalty. .

I dont remeber if it was so in release but I know it was so in the beta, they were NT only too.

the reason i say give the nano-cloaks a penalty too
is that all choices need both pros and cons.

right now, there is no reason NOT to wear one,
so every nanomage is in one just like every
one else is in decus robes.. maybe if we got some
good backpack mods that would change, but I still
think wearing nothing in your backslot should be
an option too. (in this case, the benefit is no penalties)

If i could have my recompiler in my backslot i would remove my ql 200 cloak as soon as possible. 800 in ac doesnt seems to do much today.

[Giganti]

I have to agree 100% here. I want to be able to tank again.

It'd be nice to see tank armor and BATTLE SUITS (don't forget these anyone!) useable. Kill the nano cost mod, it's making the armor totally worthless except for style.

Also, AC is a biggy. Give true TANK classes the ability to have large AC values. 5000 AC on the max battle suit sounds like an awful lot, but when you fight things that hit for 1-2k a pop easily... that 500 dmg reduction is nice, but you're still going to drop like a rock. Not saying anyone should be able to tank the Juggernaut or Terrasque, but hey... I'd like to be able to at least stick it out a few seconds

[____________Founding]

Actually at the high level play, AC doesn't really mean that much, the biggest difference is in your evades.