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Thread: Nerf GA Nerf Fixer Nerf Manex

  1. #61

    Re: Re: just one question?

    Originally posted by Dropcid


    just a quick point to make... as I said before your rude "suck it up" reply, I am a fixer who uses a nasty manex. I look at my damage output and say "woah, that is just silly". Do I like doing loads of damage? sure. Do I think the gun is well balanced? No. And i think this is a problem with more than just the manex. Instead of making existing weapons worthwhile, there is always one super uber best weapon, killing all chance of variety in the game. I'd rather use a keran's grinner, but I don't really have a choice (would you like to beat that baddie with a rock or a thermonuclear missile? You can throw 2 rocks a minute, or 1 missile every 10 minutes... the choice is pretty clear)

    On the other hand, if Jayde is truly saying from an unbiased view that the gun isn't that bad, then I'll probably side with him. The only thing that doesn't seem taken into account is that with the way ACs are calculated, Slow hard hitting weapons are inherently better than fast weapons.
    I.e. a weapon that does 100-200 damage every second is not as good as one that does 200-400 every 2 seconds.

    -D
    Actually the points of this particular argument have already been played out with the weapons ingame. Why doesn't anyone use a Premium Steiner LM-5 Assault Laser?

    Well yeah, the ammo clip size might be an issue. But I offered it as an extreme example to make the point more obvious: high damage + slow atk/recharge usually balances itself out with lower damage + fast atk/recharge. And in the case of the OT Kerans and Manex Catastrophe, nothing is preventing people from wielding both of them according to whatever the situation calls for.
    History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris

    The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown

    Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio

  2. #62

    Re: 300s?!

    Originally posted by Rahmorak


    Seriously though how many fights last 300s? The vast majority in PvM in a good team last about 10 seconds or less. Let's say 15 seconds to give benefit of the doubt.

    Manex = 11529
    MCS = 9396

    The Manex leads by a clear margin. Now for boss fights it is a different story.

    --
    Rahmorak
    Of course, that calculation assumes the Manex gets to burst once per fight.

    Which it doesn't.
    Gunned down the young. Now old, crotchety, and back.

  3. #63
    OK, now for some more numbers.

    Comparing MCS and MCD, with 1100 attack, 1000 init, full aggro, and 800 burst. 15% crit is used (3% base, 1% TIM, 7% MoP, 4% TTS) because I feel that's pretty typical to have for anyone who's actually got the kind of numbers shown above.

    Target is assumed to have 4500 AC.

    Duration of test is 40s. Why? Because it illustrates that the MCS gets to burst FAR more often than the Manex.

    Quick Results:

    MCS - 24724 total (15238 normal, 9486 burst)
    MCD - 24789 total (21240 normal, 3549 burst)

    Detailed Results:

    Mausser Chemical Streamer
    Estimated Damage Range: 4-1050 (2362)

    In 40s with a cycle speed of 2.08s, (1.08s Attack, 1s Recharge) you would have attacked 19 times. Total damage in 40s would be around 15238 points.

    Special attack damage in 40s would be around 9486 points, bringing total damage to around 24724 points.

    Your average normal hit would be around 527 points.
    Bursts in 40s would be approx. 6 @ 8s, adding around 1581 points each for 9486 points total.

    Results were calculated at 0.85 times normal and 0.15 times critical damage.
    ACs reduced your average damage by around 225 points per hit.

    Manex Catastrophe December
    Estimated Damage Range: 4-2362 (2738)

    In 40s with a cycle speed of 2.58s, (1.58s Attack, 1s Recharge) you would have attacked 15 times. Total damage in 40s would be around 21240 points.

    Special attack damage in 40s would be around 3549 points, bringing total damage to around 24789 points.

    Your average normal hit would be around 1183 points.
    Bursts in 40s would be approx. 1 @ 68s, adding around 3549 points each for 3549 points total.

    Results were calculated at 0.85 times normal and 0.15 times critical damage.
    ACs reduced your average damage by around 225 points per hit.


    In other words, the Manex is certainly NOT uber.
    Gunned down the young. Now old, crotchety, and back.

  4. #64
    so... manex is the nerfest?

  5. #65

    manex

    One has to remember that all the good things going for fixers including ga, manex and mcs are compensate for their rather quick and unsatifiying performance in the sack.

    Now, a high level enforcer who can make himself larger and go mongo...


    Ani.
    PLEASE, give use a simple YES or no answer as to whether or not the CoH chests can be opened

  6. #66
    Originally posted by Kiryat-Dharin
    OK, now for some more numbers.

    Comparing MCS and MCD, with 1100 attack, 1000 init, full aggro, and 800 burst. 15% crit is used (3% base, 1% TIM, 7% MoP, 4% TTS) because I feel that's pretty typical to have for anyone who's actually got the kind of numbers shown above.

    Target is assumed to have 4500 AC.

    Duration of test is 40s. Why? Because it illustrates that the MCS gets to burst FAR more often than the Manex.

    Quick Results:

    MCS - 24724 total (15238 normal, 9486 burst)
    MCD - 24789 total (21240 normal, 3549 burst)

    Detailed Results:

    Mausser Chemical Streamer
    Estimated Damage Range: 4-1050 (2362)

    In 40s with a cycle speed of 2.08s, (1.08s Attack, 1s Recharge) you would have attacked 19 times. Total damage in 40s would be around 15238 points.

    Special attack damage in 40s would be around 9486 points, bringing total damage to around 24724 points.

    Your average normal hit would be around 527 points.
    Bursts in 40s would be approx. 6 @ 8s, adding around 1581 points each for 9486 points total.

    Results were calculated at 0.85 times normal and 0.15 times critical damage.
    ACs reduced your average damage by around 225 points per hit.

    Manex Catastrophe December
    Estimated Damage Range: 4-2362 (2738)

    In 40s with a cycle speed of 2.58s, (1.58s Attack, 1s Recharge) you would have attacked 15 times. Total damage in 40s would be around 21240 points.

    Special attack damage in 40s would be around 3549 points, bringing total damage to around 24789 points.

    Your average normal hit would be around 1183 points.
    Bursts in 40s would be approx. 1 @ 68s, adding around 3549 points each for 3549 points total.

    Results were calculated at 0.85 times normal and 0.15 times critical damage.
    ACs reduced your average damage by around 225 points per hit.


    In other words, the Manex is certainly NOT uber.
    Good number crunching, but a I have a couple of minor objections... I for one do not run around grabbing 500 buffs before every fight, so I have never had TTS and MoP running, unless we had someone in the group to do it. I've never considered the manex to be crit reliant, so I don't bother (not to mention, in the 30 minutes everyone runs around for buffs, we could have finished a mission).
    Secondly, why did 4500 AC only reduce damage by 225? Shouldn't it be 450?
    Third, from what I've seen on the guns, it looks like the mcs is more crit reliant than the manex, but your number above don't hold to that (the stats for the weapon).. why is that?


    -D
    Last edited by Dropcid; Jan 9th, 2003 at 19:36:55.
    ===============
    First Order S.S.S.C.
    ===============

  7. #67
    And i think this is a problem with more than just the manex. Instead of making existing weapons worthwhile, there is always one super uber best weapon, killing all chance of variety in the game.
    This is an issue I'm concerned about. I'm talking from a lowbie perspective(highest char is 38) but I think it pertains to the higher levels as well. As an adventurer(35) the best pistol for me was the BBI. No other pistol came close(though I think reets, etc may be close). My soldier(38) used a QL 11 div 9 (don't laugh at me now) until level 34 or so because he couldn't find another div 9 and the only assault rifle that even came close to the damage was a QL49 EN-RAL...and that had a burst requirement too high for him to equip at the time.

    Why does it seem that there's one uber-weapon for each profession? Why not make weapons a little more even for the same quality level but vary certain specials to account for different strategies(fling on some, burst on another and combos of specials).

  8. #68
    Originally posted by Dropcid
    Third, from what I've seen on the guns, it looks like the mcs is more crit reliant than the manex, but your number above don't hold to that (the stats for the weapon).. why is that?


    -D
    Premium Mausser Particle Streamer
    7-342 (250)

    Exquisite Mausser Chemical Streamer
    1-400 (350)

    Manex Catastrophe December
    1-750 (100)

    Are these the base weapons you are basing your figures on? How did it become:
    Mausser Chemical Streamer
    Estimated Damage Range: 4-1050 (2362)

    Manex Catastrophe December
    Estimated Damage Range: 4-2362 (2738)
    I realize SMG skill raises the damage, but specifically, how did the manex become more crit reliant than the MCS? Am I missing something?

    -D
    ===============
    First Order S.S.S.C.
    ===============

  9. #69
    In the estimated damage range, the number in parentheses is the damage for a crit, not the critmod.

    4500 AC reduces by 450 per hit, but won't reduce below minimum, so it winds up reducing an *average* amount of 225 per hit.

    As to the buffs; for missions, who cares? Either gun is gonna make the mob drop way too fast. And at big ubermobs, I nearly ALWAYS have TTS/MoP/RRFE/EssBehe/OS/RC/everything else. So I think that it's fair to use that number, because the only points where the difference in damage from MCS to MCD even matters are at the ubermobs.

    Finally, the crunching was mostly Jayde's damagesimulator, so complement him, and ask him the questions.
    Gunned down the young. Now old, crotchety, and back.

  10. #70
    He's saying the MCS is more crit reliant and it is, at least more so then the manex.

    1) You actually can use a crit scope with an MCS. Just forget about it on a Manex.

    2) MCS seems to crit more often, IMO...of course that's probably because it fires more often (I'm assuming you don't have uber enough RI to get these weapons to 1/1)

    3) Manex, you just fire and pray you don't miss more then twice in a row (more then once in the lower end!), and that the POS doesn't hit 5 times in a row for 80 like mine did last night.
    General Hershel "Kasimir" Jurik

    President of Division 9 R.S.G.E

    Fixer
    RK-1

    Braumiester of the Pagan Bartenders, wielder of dual SSo8s

    Stealer of hearts, creds, and anything not nailed down!

  11. #71

    Re: manex

    Originally posted by Animosity
    One has to remember that all the good things going for fixers including ga, manex and mcs are compensate for their rather quick and unsatifiying performance in the sack.

    Now, a high level enforcer who can make himself larger and go mongo...


    Ani.
    Ani, baby, I have a long HoT and a short HoT. Gimme an HE, and I can keep you going ALL night long.

    I may not compare to the enforcer in sheer size, but I can match him and sometimes beat him in staying power.
    Gunned down the young. Now old, crotchety, and back.

  12. #72
    Yah you only bet to burst once every 4 fights with manex in missions, sometimes once every 5 depending on how good the team is.

    The MCS is always good for a burst a fight

    These guns are so close for damage/time that it mostly comes down to a mobs evades (high evades favors more bursts) and its particular weakness to chem or proj damage.

    The're actually *gasp* well balanced.


    As for pvp... yah a manex can burst for 1.5-2k... but so what... by the time it recycles I will have burst someone (or multiple opponents) 8-9x for 500-1k. And in any mass PvP a fixer in GA needs to be on full def - making the manex a total pos.

    John

  13. #73
    Bump for mantex and GA nerf.

  14. #74
    When is the Manex supposed to be overpowered ? Looking at the calc's shown here doesn't seem to make a strong case for using it at higher levels. And at low levels, I think it stinks. Sure it hits hard, but I can go watch old episodes of Buffy between shots. Wound up switching to a particle streamer just because the damage was pretty close and the burst cycled much faster.

    Still I think it's a good point that there's many weapons in the game which are quite useless. While I can understand a rare, difficult to obtain weapon being fairly powerful, weapons like the div 9, manex, and many of the other popular weapons are anything but rare. Manex's I've seen offered as mission rewards before I even reached level 10, particle streamers can be bought in shops. Well, for Div 9's, you will actually have to work a bit since as I understand it, they only drop off mission bosses. Still, I seem to be tripping over the damn things in all QL's.

    Course then I look at something like the Pulse Rifle (you know, that rifle with really awful damage, slow fire/recycle times, and very little range), and have to ask "WTF is this even in the game for". I see alot of weapons like that, too many IMO. Quite simply, there's sure alot of items that do nothing but eat up database space. We'd be alot better off if those items were improved or simply removed.

  15. #75
    Fixers to hard? Hah i eat em for lunch. Guess ya just need to upgrade yer gear my man.
    Boltgrinder 200 (No Longer Rising!) enforcer. General of Mercenaries of Kai. Dream Setup Current Setup
    CamelLights 62 Nano Technician, To much MC for my own good.

    Razi Quote until i change it!

    Razi-Away: If you have a doctrine of loving cuddly bears, it means you will go out and love cuddly bears. If you have a philosophy of loving cuddly bears, it means you just love them. It works the same, only replacing "love" with "hate", "cuddly" with a cuss word, and "bears" with a minority of your choice.

  16. #76
    Ahh yes...please nerf me with my level 124 GA II wearing ass. Please. I want to take 9600 combined damamge from the 5 NT's who saw me appear in a fight at a tower some more!!! PLease!!!

    I want that Enforcer...with a Hacked off Insect arm who runs faster than me..run up and BEAT me to the earth with his specials...I want it more!!!

    I want that Soldier who slaps up TMS and Hit me with fling/burst/FA then switch to a Div-9 and hose me with a nother Burst before I can see thru the Lag!!

    I want to watch myself go Naked as IM Nano Shutdown by a MP and sodomized by his Pets!!

    I want that trader to steal all my skills and make me go nekkid...and shoot me for 1900 crit dmg a shot...3 times in a row!!

    I want to keep shooting that Docotor..even though I might as well be throwing my ammo at him, for all the dmg I will end up doign to him over time....


    Oh...yeah..Nerf me please....why not make the GA somethign that can be bought in a shop terminal....only by Traders....and costs 700 million fro GA I...


    (Phuleeze......Nerf Nerf Nerf. Im tired of seeing this crap. The intention of this thread is to cause yet again more dissension. The AUthor whines becasue he cant hit a smurf. I CANNOT HIT A SMURF!!! have you ever seen a smirf fight?? I got into one with another smurf....lasted 15 mins!!! we both just ended up gridding as a pack of Enforcers who were on fire charged up waving Dead Animal Parts. Sorry if you seem to always get fried by a Fixer with a Manex....but I can garuntee you..ive beenkilled more times while wearing my GA that you can even imagin....and thats just PvM.....)

  17. #77
    to the person who started this thread. i'm about sick of seeing a thread this long about when u lost a pvp fight. start a poll and see how many people want any changes that you care about in the next patch or how many people want the game improved. no, no, sssssshhhhhhhhhhh. do the poll. i rest my case.
    War is Hell.

  18. #78

    bah

    I think the real problem here is just the overall ability they have. Fixers are by far the biggest P****** Ive ever seen.
    they attack, root, run away....heal, come back. repeat process.
    and even if your about to kill one. FC had this GRAND idea of letting them grid out whenever they feel like it. the grid is fine if your in a team and need a fast escape, but FC should make it so those smurfs cant do it while engaged in direct battle. another problem they have is the great ability to root down yalms.
    ive lost 2 pvp titles because of this. I was well out of any guns range. but yet roots can seem to go a hell of alot farther then anything. oh...and once your rooted....you cant get out of ur yalm to defend yourself. does FC care....not really, i just get the good ol e-mail address to send my complaints too. roots are supposed to STOP YOU WERE YOU ARE. not pull you to the enemy. im a soldier, all i have is TMS. if you think we can outdamage a smurf. ur outta ur mind. this game was good about a year ago. nice diversty of professions, now i get to walk out of south gate in tir. and see 30 fixers running around. and about 99.9% of them are wearing GA, so the stuff aint that rare guys........the only people replying negative to this post ARE fixers, because they know they kick ass...and dont want to loose it.

  19. #79

    Re: bah

    Originally posted by Demonlegion
    I think the real problem here is just the overall ability they have. Fixers are by far the biggest P****** Ive ever seen.
    they attack, root, run away....heal, come back. repeat process.
    and even if your about to kill one. FC had this GRAND idea of letting them grid out whenever they feel like it. the grid is fine if your in a team and need a fast escape, but FC should make it so those smurfs cant do it while engaged in direct battle. another problem they have is the great ability to root down yalms.
    ive lost 2 pvp titles because of this. I was well out of any guns range. but yet roots can seem to go a hell of alot farther then anything. oh...and once your rooted....you cant get out of ur yalm to defend yourself. does FC care....not really, i just get the good ol e-mail address to send my complaints too. roots are supposed to STOP YOU WERE YOU ARE. not pull you to the enemy. im a soldier, all i have is TMS. if you think we can outdamage a smurf. ur outta ur mind. this game was good about a year ago. nice diversty of professions, now i get to walk out of south gate in tir. and see 30 fixers running around. and about 99.9% of them are wearing GA, so the stuff aint that rare guys........the only people replying negative to this post ARE fixers, because they know they kick ass...and dont want to loose it.
    I'm not a fixer. I find the smurf suit seals in the juices while they're cooking. They're even the right color (powder blue). I am a trader.

    I don't want fixers nerfed at all. Leave them alone and figure out what's wrong with your own professions. Then demand Funcom fix those things instead of nerfing the fixers.
    History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris

    The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown

    Did you ever get the feeling that the world had an abundance of idiots? And that God had arranged for you to meet every single one of them before you died? - Kuroshio

  20. #80
    All I have to say here is that Manex is a good weapon. Nothing uber at all. I would prefer something like a Hellspinner because your damage is much more stable. It really sucks when you take 3 second to shoot and you do minimum damage for 50.. or even worst, when your burst recharge every 90seconds and your last shot did more damage than your burst..

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