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Thread: MP LOVE THREAD (Dont Let this Die Out)

  1. #41
    Rahmorak,

    What you say is quite right. NTs struggle to find the NCU for some of their buffs and have to make sacrifices and many of the newer nanos are hard to find/hard to get. I'd imagine that if the MPs got AC buffs we would struggle a lot more than the NTs even to find NCU to fit them in. Similarly, I'm sure that any very powerful nanos introduced for the MPs to fix the above highlighted situations would be made extremely rare. Certainly, if the 3 pieces of MP armour that drops from Patricia (good pal of Ian Warr) is anything to go by - they'll be very hard to get.

    I think all MPs know the restrictions that the various elements of the NT defence have and also the rarity and difficulty to get of some of the nanos (the pest is no push over ). I'd say that if the MPs were to get something to balance those elements out a little more, then we'd expect them to be as hard to find and as difficult to get as the NT ones are.

    We'd like the options too is essentially what we're saying. As things stand the MP is extremely weak against weapons use. This has been highlighted recently by the sudden resurgence of mass PvP through Notum Wars. We find that our pets are nearly always disabled or debuffed into uselessness and with that half of our defences and attack are gone. This leaves us with nanoskills debuffs, extremely poor weapons skills and a decent (though very nanocostly) single target nuke.

    Trying to kill somebody with the just the nuke is a very hard business indeed (if it can be done without recharging nano) and trying to defend against the weapon of the opponent with just a very small dmg/init debuff (max -37 dmg/-261 weapons inits) is nigh on impossible. That is the major difficulty being highlighted here.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  2. #42

  3. #43
    bout time for a bump i think
    I Am Cheif WIG WAM Wognus!!

  4. #44
    There is many good ideas and suggestions in MP boards.
    Get a clue FC, do something for MPs. The MP population is decreasing every day, fix or give class reset.

  5. #45
    mp's need luv.
    ==============
    200 Meta-Physicist.
    One mind, one purpose.

  6. #46
    BUMP for MP love...we need it badly..
    Ezequiell 220/24 Doctor
    Vojoc 220/23 Meta-Physicist
    Bourrepif 218/16 Martial Artist

  7. #47
    Bizzickity Bump for the MP luvin'
    "You cannot acquire experience by making experiments. You cannot create experience. You must undergo it." - Albert Camus

  8. #48
    "As things stand the MP is extremely weak against weapons use"


    Well why don't you just ask every profession that is slightly more combat orientated then MPs to remove their weapons and fight with bare hands against you?


    Sorry this was sarcastic, but you ARE supposed to have weaknesses. Every profession has them...well almost every profession.

    You have items that add 160 to all defences, you can even put a tower and clusters in taht add to all defences. Explore a bit game options before you simply want to have a do-it-all buffs. You have very good defence if you want it...but not without a cost of course.

    "Yup, which is why in the above discussion we were talking about defences against weapons users. Since in the reality of the game every PvPer is a weapons user, it's usually the weapons that kill us. "

    Again this is a silly argument that belong to the category "Enforcers are the Nerfest profession". Heck, this is what the PvP is about. You think NT defences are great. Try playing one, b/c its sure ain't all that. Equip a good alpha weapon like IEC and you stand as good change against any "weapon" user as NTs do.
    Last edited by North; Jan 11th, 2003 at 08:25:17.

  9. #49
    No offense, but I see mostly NTs complain about this love patch which MPs didn't got any. I will use this just for example, during the same time they got Warps, AC/HP Buffs, NULLITY, NP Buff, New nukes like Candycane, Resonance blast, Pest, Fixer killers and good self snare/root reducers.
    MPs actually got a whole patch devoted to them. I think MPs need higher level content to compensate recent changes, but until I see other professions getting their love done. I am not gonna vouch for MPs getting a bigger boost. You will probably get it anyway, so no harsh feelings if I am against it atm. I do still think you should wait until crats, engis etc have been given what they deserve.

    I could also go on about listing the uselfuness of all that stuff you listed, but dont want to bother doing it for the 1000th time inthese forums.

  10. #50
    North. The MP is the only class in the game that has all dark blue weapons skills - certainly according to this table.
    The colour doesn't matter unless it a green. Check what your skills actually caps at. And with alpha weapons...who cares about ranged init.

  11. #51
    Originally posted by North
    You have items that add 160 to all defences, you can even put a tower and clusters in taht add to all defences. Explore a bit game options before you simply want to have a do-it-all buffs. You have very good defence if you want it...but not without a cost of course.
    You're right, we do have an item that adds +160 to all defenses. That is completely true.
    If it is equipped, then the only means that we have for dmg would be our nukes and our pets.
    Pets: I personally solo'd a fully buffed Cacodemon in the arena, self-buffed with a ql 177 QHS at approx 630'ish Atk Rating (long before evoc nanos), just to see if it could be done... The fight lasted about 7 mins and I was at about 3/4 full HPs when I won.
    Then, I asked Elementul5 to do it (way before crit nerf), he killed it in approx 30s, and he didn't get hit once.
    Evocs... I'll let Xtremtech fill you in on the math, but it becomes damn near pointless to Evoc a pet mid-fight. So, we're left with the same'ish pet we had before the "pet-love" patch.
    Nukes: With a 6k+ Nanopool (and our 24% nanocost reducer running) I'd be lucky to be able to kill another nanogimp MP.

    What I'm saying here, is that to use this would mean an added 10s (max) for any prof to kill us... while losing 50%+ dmg output.
    That is why there is a portion of the MP Wishlist to make Creations more viable.

    Also, pls do not ask us to: "Explore a bit game options before you simply want to have a do-it-all buffs." We've explored it all, and I'm sure that you would agree that the vast majority of the higher lvl MPs are experts in their field. Especially ppl like Xtremtech who researches the profession on a daily basis.
    Demonsguile 204 MP HYDRA General
    Korrupshun 147 Trader (The MP anti-thesis)
    Renown 104 Enf (King of the Ring, before OE patch)
    Bloke 76 Keeper
    -He who angers you, conquers you.
    -Those who complain the most, do the least.
    -Goals are not made to be attained or achieved. They are made to be surpassed.
    Originally posted by Sallust
    They can't show us new pets because they have better things to do then camp for the items

  12. #52
    Sorry this was sarcastic, but you ARE supposed to have weaknesses. Every profession has them...well almost every profession.

    You have items that add 160 to all defences, you can even put a tower and clusters in taht add to all defences. Explore a bit game options before you simply want to have a do-it-all buffs. You have very good defence if you want it...but not without a cost of course.
    North,

    I know pretty much exactly what is in the MP palette and use pretty much all of it. I'm both aware of and quoted in the above posts the MP's creation weapons. I did, quite literally, write the guide to the MP after all. We actually have items that add +230 to DMS (Creation: Shield of Evernan), but have to give up ranged weapons in order to use them. If you've ever PvPed, you'll know that nanomage, ranged nano users have to use ranged weapons to stand a chance in PvP.... and the creation weapons are melee with very little damage indeed.

    The issue is not that we want to have super-powerful defences against everybody at no cost. The issue is that we'd like to have some defences against weapons users that are practical in PvP. All of the low hit point professions have some decent defences against weapons users - particularly the professions focussed on nanomages such as the MP and NT. It's a balance that is necessary or that profession is simply too easy to kill in PvP. That's why the NTs have strong defences against weapons users in addition to some reasonable nanoskill defences.

    The MPs aren't asking for massive defences against weapons users. We know that we're supposed to be weak in that area. We just think that it's severely unbalancing to be as weak as we are. A few simple changes such as increasing the damage debuff that we have so that it's more practical, making the mez pet actually work in PvP so that it debuffs weapons inits for its duration of 12 seconds or giving us some way of increasing our heal pet's nanoresistance so that we stand a chance of it not being disabled by 11 of the 12 professions would already go a long way to making things better.

    As things stand, the MP has severe survivability issues in PvP. As for all pet users our attack pets are easy to remove/disable - but in addition for the MP our defence pets are disabled easily too, which leaves us defenceless and an easy kill. Look at it this way: the Fixers hate that two professions can take out their major line of defence against weapons: MPs using nanoshutdown (if we can land it ) and NTs with the GA-nukes. They hate this so much even though they have the Grid Evac as a last ditch defence. They are kicking up a major fuss about it. But for the MP - 11 professions can disable our major defence in the heal pet... which leaves us pretty much dead in practice.... as we also have no last ditch evac that will get us out of danger quickly. The best we have is quantum wings which are very slow casting (12 seconds) and offer no run-buff.

    That's the issue. If you'd like to actually research some of the suggestions that the MPs are making in the MP Wishlist, you'll find that most of the defensive improvements suggested are minor updates to the existing nano lines or are balanced well with some sacrifice in offensive strength, such as with the MP Emergency Defensive Nano wishlist entry.

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Jan 11th, 2003 at 11:15:26.
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  13. #53
    I had just woken up when I wrote those so please excuse the rude sound from them. I was trying to be pragmatic.

    However, I have to comment on few things.

    "That's why the NTs have strong defences against weapons users in addition to some reasonable nanoskill defences."

    NTs don't have a stong defences, heck our defence are almost as piss poor as MPs, if we discount all the pets. And we have no defences on our nanos skills, normal and easy to land debuffs can off set our balance almost completely. I can however understand your point of view as you have not played as a NT.

    The real problem with NTs is that our damage is not nearly comperable to ability to heal in this game, it has not gotten much better even with the latest additions. This I think is the problem with MPs as well. Damage vs. heal comparison which I did a while back will show you how much fecked that thing is.

    Defences can be improved from outside buffs (not for duels if you have some decency) for mass PvP. You can boost your defences quite a bit with combination of right items and buffs. This is the option for all the profession however, so we could say its kinda status quo again.

    I think you guys have some good suggestions, and would certainly improve your position in PvP. Like I said, I hope that at some point you guys have your turn apart from minor fixes. You do realise that there are profs that have not seen almost anything for a year.

    And do I think that MPs are good enought to meet the recent changes in high level game, no I don't. It needs to be fixed, but so do many other professions.

  14. #54
    NTs don't have a stong defences, heck our defence are almost as piss poor as MPs, if we discount all the pets.
    We'll have to agree to disagree here I'd say. Nullity, layers, weapons/nano Init debuffs in your calms, blinds, stuns that do damage and roots all add up to decent defences against weapons users. All of these tools can be and are used quite happily in PvP by NTs.... or at least by the NTs I know (and my other half is one ). Compare this to the -37 top of the line damage debuff and a heal pet that can be disabled by 11 out of 12 professions and a single stun at high levels with a 10 second recharge (unlike the 4 second recharge of Electrifying Containment with its 25% chance of stun and damage included).

    As to:
    Defences can be improved from outside buffs (not for duels if you have some decency) for mass PvP. You can boost your defences quite a bit with combination of right items and buffs. This is the option for all the profession however, so we could say its kinda status quo again.
    MP's in PvP are once again one of the weaker professions in terms of available NCU. For our in combat nanos - not pre-combat buffs or even pets - just the nanos we cast in battle we need very high levels of BM/MC/TS (max for Evo is 1047 in all three skills) and in order to stand a decent chance of landing debuffs and nukes we need to overbuff on PM/SI too. That's top levels of BM/MC/TS/PM/SI in battle.... which if we optimise them totals 324 NCU. Add to that the fact that all MP nanos are very nanocostly and you'll realise we need to dedicate another 50 NCU to a nanocost buff (whether ours or the better NT one).... and the high level MP is running 375 NCU with just Nanoskills and Nanocost buffs.

    6 QL200 NCUs = 384 NCU.... which leaves us with 9 NCU free.

    Then add in that the MP combat nanos have amongst the shortest ranges of any nano in the game. NSD = 14 metres. Even the nukes are only 20 metres whereas the majority of NT nukes are in the 25 to 35 metre range and the Crat nuke has 25 m range... and you'll understand that a PvP MP would like to have the Range Increaser.

    Then as mentioned above, the MP has very high nanocost on his nanos, so we'd really like to use the CPU upgrade.

    And then with the very slow attack debuffs (NSD 9,3s/Dominates 6s), the MP would prefer to use the Recompiler of course...

    And you begin to see that the effective MP has very little NCU space for outside buffs at all - if any. This is actually another part of the issue for MPs and is being addressed in wishlist threads talking about ways of reducing the NCU footprint of the MP nanoskills debuffs somewhat.

    Sacrifices should be made of course to gain advantages, but the MPs certainly feel that something should be done with regard to improving their surviveability in PvP and that we have one of the strongest cases in terms of need right now.

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Jan 11th, 2003 at 13:58:21.
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  15. #55
    I never go tower battles selfbuffed, I also always get NCU buff from a fixer. Also use ring of Nucleus if I am few NCU short from a nice buff etc, and remove it after. NCU is a problem for a quite a few profession again, but your point is valid....get the fixer buff?

    "(unlike the 4 second recharge of Electrifying Containment with its 25% chance of stun and damage included). "

    Its 5% chance to stun.

    About NT defences:

    Using layers = no damage apart from a weapon, long recharge, you will die in a long run
    Using NS MKII = nice 17 seconds nuking time, opponent just have to run away from my range tho, unless i get him rooted first
    AC/HP buff = well 350 to HP is ok, but have you checked the amount of NCU it takes? I hardlly ever have it running.
    Blinds = I personally think that this like is the best defensive line we have, but only at levels 190-200 when they last long enough and reduce AR between 200-250ish points
    Last edited by North; Jan 12th, 2003 at 03:20:23.

  16. #56
    Just combine the MPs with the NTs and make them Nano-Physicists.

    As for MP defense, why do we not have something like grid armor? If I can summon creation weapons, why not armor as well? Only make it more useful than the creation weapons sound like they are.

    Oh yeah...BUMP!!!

  17. #57
    North.

    I know. Sounds like you're beginning to understand the issue.

    << MP Dead here >>
    Layers = no damage apart from a weapon, long recharge, you will die in a long run
    Using NS MKII = nice 17 seconds nuking time, opponent just have to run away from my range tho, unless i get him rooted first
    Blinds = I personally think that this like is the best defensive line we have, but only at levels 190-200 when they last long enough and reduce AR between 200-250ish points[/quote]
    << NT dies here unless someone came to his aid >>

    You're right that all the NT things have their downsides. Layers you can try to chain but it'll only slow things down if you're being beaten on hard. NS you have to stand still for the 17 seconds and try to get in a root or maybe kill the opponent with a big nuke or two. Blinds just extend your life again etc...

    But the MP was already dead a long time ago and never got the chance to extend their life so that they could do something like run, get help or try to kill their attacker. Everybody is killable in PvP - and we really don't want to be immortal - but the MP is just so easily killable right now that it's a tad unbalancing. All we want is something that might extend our life that extra 30 seconds or so to give us a chance of fighting back strongly or running like the babies we are.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  18. #58
    Someday I will have to explore the rationale that players like North embrace, where they believe that attention to one class somehow means others will be neglected. Many professions in this game have gotten special attention, so this belief is quite absurd. Why anyone would not advocate for weaknesses in gameplay to be addressed, regardless of who it is for, is just boggling to me (I'll make exceptions for suggestions that are just patently absurd).

    It really is intriguing that you would adamantly oppose fixes to MP's simply because you feel NT's need fixes as well. As if fixes to MP's would exclude NT's from receiving any attention themselves. Quite amusing really. We really are not in competition in this area, just trying to get some attention to our problems, and feedback on what they have in mind to help fix issues with this profession.

    Frankly I couldn't care less if you feel MP's need attention or not. Your not the one who makes such decisions, thus it's rather inconsequential what you think. Impressing upon you our needs is a great waste of time, even if you were swayed to our "side", your unable to help us. Unable to help us, your not of much use to us.

  19. #59
    It really is intriguing that you would adamantly oppose fixes to MP's simply because you feel NT's need fixes as well. As if fixes to MP's would exclude NT's from receiving any attention themselves. Quite amusing really. We really are not in competition in this area, just trying to get some attention to our problems, and feedback on what they have in mind to help fix issues with this profession
    The fact is that MPs have never been nerfed wihtout been given any stuff to compansate for it...NTs have been. MPs are very good professions to play in PvM, you ain't great on mass PvP, but you ain't supposed to be. You also have very boring late levels as there is nothing to look forward. However, you got a whole patch almost solely devoted to you guys a while back where as NTs have been given nothing in comparison to MPs. NTs have been crying for the past over a year now, and when something nice were suggested by developers...I can still remember MPs attacking us for getting xxx thing or might be getting yyy things.

    The fact is that crats, engis and NTs have been and currently the most neglected professions in this game. Unless we have been given some attention, I am not gonna agree that you will be getting a fix before we do. In other words, wait your turn.

    The actual fact is that you will probably end up getting a fix before any of us three do, so my few words against it in here do not mean much.

    Taeru, and I still remember those hostile MP posts at our forums and believe me that they got attention of developers...so they do read this stuff, and if I have some lay off time I make sure that I post on crap like this.

    /me dies on weapon damage
    /me thinks that is not supposed to happen, I should be immortal
    Last edited by North; Jan 13th, 2003 at 14:25:14.

  20. #60
    Sorry for some harsh stuff said in the previous post but hypocracy of people like Taeku gets me sometimes. This is a social forum after all.

    I hope MPs get added high level content and pet pathing fixed for good. However, don't think your profession is broken as it is.

    My last post to this thread. Good luck.

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