MP Wishlist: Notum Rejection Changes

[Xtremtech]

Hi All,

Notum Rejection (for those of you who don't know - and there seem to be a lot of them ) is an MP debuff that increases the nanocost of every nano-formula cast by the target by 25% for 1 minute

This buff could be very useful in PvP battles on Docs/healers and any Nanopoor profession and a much under-rated debuff in my opinion. Enforcers get to challenge and mongo a fair bit less because they cost so much more in nano each time and the Team Healers find they can get a goodly few less heals out and the NTs find that they're running out of nano more quickly all of a sudden.

There are two big drawbacks to Notum Rejection:

1) It has a nanoresist factor of 140 which makes it very difficult to land reliably
2) With the rising budget in Nanocost reducing buffs and items in the game and the NTs HEs... 25% isn't enough to maintain its usefulness through the high levels.

The present Notum Rejection is:

QL 149
NCU 46
Nanocost 488
School space, strain 211
Duration 4mins
Attack time 4.72 s
Recharge time 4.5 s
Range 14 m

Defense skills
nano resist 140

Attack skills
biological meta 53
psycho mod 47


Requirements
To Use biological meta >= 702
psycho mod >= 630
visual profession == meta-physicist


I'd like to propose the following changes:

• 1) Present Notum Rejection should stay at 25% but with nanoresist 100%
  2) New Notum Rejection at 35% and nanoresist 120%
  3) Top of the line (level >= 195) Notum Rejection with 45% nanocost debuff and 140%

What do you think?

X

[_______________Hypos]

The problem with Notum Rejection is it's just not flashy. There's no big bang, no "I have him now" insta-kill feeling to it. It's a slow leeching nano. The concept has the potential to be death to nukers, healers, or enfs who chain rage/challenger. But Dominate/NSD has a quicker, more obvious effect. Why increase his nano cost when you can just take away his toys? You need a reason to cast Notum Rejection over Dominate/NSD.

Reduce the nano resist on the basic nano to 90%. Scale the others in the line up from there. This way, you can go for a Notum Rejection if the Dominate won't land.

Also, give either give the nanos an anti-HE effect, or add a line of Notum Leech nanos. Have it chip away at the target's nano, taking away nano the way HE adds it. People complain a lot about docs and enfs with HE just not dieing like they should. If you increase their nano cost by 25% and leech their nano on top of it, they'll go down. This might be too much for one line of nanos, but it can't hurt to ask.

[Toxinator]

Um.. where do i get the current one

[Xtremtech]

Clicksaver LT...

H: great ideas.... though the 90% may be pushing it a little. Pretty much all of our debuffs are above 100 if memory serves.

I like the Anti-HE idea and think it could be built in. But it would have to be very small. Remember you're casting this on somebody because he is casting lots of nanos in battle - so he's using up nano. Then the debuff itself makes it so that every cast costs him a lot more.... so he's using even more nano. Then you're adding a little drain... so he's using even more nano again.

Maybe a 1% of the present nanopool every 20 seconds (debuff duration is 4 minutes) on the first one. That's 1% off the remaining nano in the pool at the time of the tick.

Then 2% on the second and 3% on the third.

This way you hit the big nanopool super-HE'd guys the hardest, because they'll generally have more nano in pool - so 1% could be 60. For a low pool not HE'd player, the nano amount drained off would be smaller and get smaller with each tick.



X

[Toxinator]

Originally posted by XtremTech
Clicksaver LT...

Sorry.. having an off week if you noticed.

[Xtremtech]

Lol I know the feeling LT. Not been a good few days for me either.

Off to bed now me.

X

[_____________Meurgen]

As Hypos said, as long as we have a better chance of landing a dominate, why use notum rejection?

I can't remember, is it really one minute? Here's a few things that would make me actually use the nano:

100 or lower % nanoresist.

Increase the effective time to 3 minutes or more.

Increase the +% nanocost drastically... at least 50%. This would allow it to offset HE and Jobe easily... and actually make it useful.

I don't think these changes are going to happen, and because of that, I don't feel that Notum Rejection has any real use in our arsenal... it's destined to sit down there at the bottom of my nano menu, never looked at, and never used.

[__________THEDEACON!]

Originally posted by Hypos
The problem with Notum Rejection is it's just not flashy. There's no big bang, no "I have him now" insta-kill feeling to it. It's a slow leeching nano. The concept has the potential to be death to nukers, healers, or enfs who chain rage/challenger. But Dominate/NSD has a quicker, more obvious effect. Why increase his nano cost when you can just take away his toys? You need a reason to cast Notum Rejection over Dominate/NSD.

Reduce the nano resist on the basic nano to 90%. Scale the others in the line up from there. This way, you can go for a Notum Rejection if the Dominate won't land.

Also, give either give the nanos an anti-HE effect, or add a line of Notum Leech nanos. Have it chip away at the target's nano, taking away nano the way HE adds it. People complain a lot about docs and enfs with HE just not dieing like they should. If you increase their nano cost by 25% and leech their nano on top of it, they'll go down. This might be too much for one line of nanos, but it can't hurt to ask.

wow! I really like that idea!

Given that we are the antithesis of a nanotechnician, a nano leech makes ALOT of sense. Do the nanoleech plus the nanocost increaser with a 100% nano resist and you have something that's worth casting for once. Devastating.

A few months ago I would have said it's overpowering, but the other professions are getting bigger and nastier toys. It only makes sense that we should too. Our debuffs should be feared in pvp, not "oh sure, if he manages to actually land it on me, which is doubtful". That's what they're currently saying about nanoshutdown. It went from a frightening spell to something that's easily ignored. Now that nano resist actually works and works well and several classes can buff this skill (ma's wave of summer, enforcers, fixers and doctors), I think it's time the resist on nanoshutdown is lowered to no more than 120%.

Each class should have that one tool that makes them feared in pvp. MPs have "annoyances". CoC is an "annoyance". Mind quake is an "annoyance". Our pets are an "annoyance". Dominate is a moderate "inconvenience" and nanoshutdown is now laughed at :/

Currently, notum rejection falls under the very minor annoyance category. I use it, but rarely does it matter because like she said, our debuffs have a more noticeable effect and rejection becomes a redundancy. We debuff them, they switch to lower heals which in turn have a lower nanocost.

[__________Armaklaesy]

Notum Rejection is a 4 minute debuff.

[Xtremtech]

... but Dominate is a 5 minute debuff.

Dominate doesn't disable a caster. They can switch to lower QL versions of their normal nanos and even with a very well chosen Dominate, they may still be able to cast other types of nanos though you force a change in tactics on their part. Add to this that Dominates are susceptible to virus scanners, which will wipe them out.

Notum Rejection (with possible nanoleech) will affect all casting. So NTs who switch to a lower requirement nuke after a dominate would still find themselves losing nano much faster. Notum Rejection is also not susceptible to Virus Scanners so there's no way to get rid of it.

Still I see the reasoning so I think it would be OK to make it the same nanoresist as Dominate - but not less - so make it 100.

Could someone draw up a couple of suggested nanodescriptions for us to discuss in depth? I'm a bit short on time today.

X

[Xtremtech]

Well since nobody else seems to want to do it...

• Notum Rejection
  
  The target finds it more difficult to control nanobots, increasing the nanopoint cost of executing nano formulas by 25%.
  
  
  QL 149
  NCU 46
  Nanocost 488
  School space, strain 211
  Duration 4mins
  Attack time 4.72 s
  Recharge time 4.5 s
  Range 14 m
  
  Defense skills
  nano resist 100
  
  Attack skills
  biological meta 53
  psycho mod 47
  
  Requirements
  To Use biological meta >= 702
  psycho mod >= 630
  visual profession == meta-physicist
  
  Effects
  On Use modify target nano cost modifier 25
  hit target current nano - .. -25 16 hits, 15s delay
  
  
  Notum Occlusion
  
  The target finds it more difficult to control nanobots, causing a blockage in the nanoflow and increasing the nanopoint cost of executing nano formulas by 35%.
  
  
  QL 189
  NCU 46
  Nanocost 558
  School space, strain 211
  Duration 4mins
  Attack time 4.72 s
  Recharge time 4.5 s
  Range 14 m
  
  Defense skills
  nano resist 100
  
  Attack skills
  biological meta 53
  psycho mod 47
  
  
  Requirements
  To Use biological meta >= 883
  psycho mod >= 782
  Level >= 165
  visual profession == meta-physicist
  
  
  Effects
  On Use modify target nano cost modifier 35
  hit target current nano - .. -50 16 hits, 15s delay
  
  
  
  Notum Denial
  
  The target finds it more difficult to control nanobots, causing a blockage in the nanoflow and increasing the nanopoint cost of executing nano formulas by 45%.
  
  
  QL 229
  NCU 46
  Nanocost 658
  School space, strain 211
  Duration 4mins
  Attack time 4.72 s
  Recharge time 4.5 s
  Range 14 m
  
  Defense skills
  nano resist 100
  
  Attack skills
  biological meta 53
  psycho mod 47
  
  
  Requirements
  To Use biological meta >= 1023
  psycho mod >= 892
  Level >= 195
  visual profession == meta-physicist
  
  
  Effects
  On Use modify target nano cost modifier 45
  hit target current nano - .. -75 16 hits, 15s delay

Feedback? Too much? Too little?

X

[_______________Hypos]

Hmm, evidently notum rejection is not a very popular topic.

I think it's fairly common for execution times to go up slightly as you get to higher versions in a line. Perhaps add +.25/.5 to Occlusion and +.5/1 to Denial.

It occurs to me that it might be possible to test the effectiveness of these nanos before we even ask for them. For instance, my doc is using a -15% casting cost CPU Upgrade and a full set of QL200 nano regen implants (getting +110 nano every 10 sec). To simulate the effects of Notum Denial, I could get Notum Rejection cast on me, replace the CPU Upgrade with a 5% version, and remove the shining nano regen implant (reducing to +55 every 10 sec). Test it perhaps by chain casting our best heals and see how long I can keep it up under both scenarios.

Or, heck, maybe just run the numbers on paper.

[Xtremtech]

Hypos,

I think that'd be a great idea... but have to say I'm struggling for time what with running several wishlist threads, the professionals forum stuff and other stuff at the moment.... Could you have a go at it for us?

X

[_______________Hypos]

Ok, I'll see what I can pop together.

[_______________Hypos]

Ok, nano usage is the topic. How fast do we run out? It’s necessary to make a few dangerous assumptions here. What nano cost reduction nanos/items does a char have? What nano regen nanos/items are in use? What level is his nano at when you land Nano Rejection on him?

I’m trying to make reasonable estimates here where necessary. Also, I’m intentionally leaving out Izgimmer’s Obfuscated Recompiler simply because I’ve yet to have even level 200 NTs cast it on my doc. Not that I wouldn’t like it…

I’m also going to round up some of the time increments to account for normal combat delays, like lag and the inability of a typical user to execute things to the 1/100th of a second.

Test bed: Level 200 Doc

Summary of a chain casting doc
Doc healing/debuffing will run out of nano in 722 sec
Doc healing/debuffing with Notum Rejection will run out in 232.06 sec (68% faster)
Doc healing/debuffing with Notum Occlusion will run out in 177.55 sec (75% faster)
Doc healing/debuffing with Notum Rejection will run out in 143.74 sec (80% faster)

Doc healing/debuffing/DoTting will run out of nano in 229 sec
Doc healing/debuffing/DoTting with Notum Recection will run out in 117.41 sec (49% faster)
Doc healing/debuffing/DoTting with Notum Occlusion will run out in 96.81 sec (58% faster)
Doc healing/debuffing/DoTting with Notum Denial will run out in 82.36 sec (64% faster)

Setup: Assume roughly 6500 nano. Every doc will seek out PNH in group PvP along with Jobe/Mocham Web. So that’s +235 nano every 15 sec with a –24% cost modifier. Also, I’m assuming triple implanted QL200 nano regen implants for +110 nano roughly every 10 sec. The doc will also have one or more cost reduction items. A hardcore CPU upgrade and/or Gaily Painted Hood. Julia Pomy posts regularly on the doc forum, saying that with GPH, she leaves out the CPU Upgrade because she just doesn’t run out of nano. So, I’ll assume a 15% cost reduction here from items, though it could go higher with items such as Breastplate of Azure Reveries. Docs also have good first aid skill and green pharmatech to make the good stims. Assume +600 nano every 45 sec from stims.
Total adjustments: -39% cost and +3000 nano per 90 sec or +33.33 per sec

Nano costs: Work horse heal is Lifegiving Elixir: insta-cast, 201 nano, 4.56s recharge. Of course, the doc has to pop off a Complete Heal now and then: may or may not be insta-cast depening on aggro settings and such. Assume 0.5s attack, 1400 nano, 8s recharge. Docs also need to cast an occasional Uncontrollable Body Tremors: Assume 0.5s attack, 410 nano, 3s recharge. A doc that wants kills will also employ DoTs. Sentient Nano Gorger: insta-cast, 1078 nano, 1.6s recharge, 90s duration and Wrack and Ruin: Assume 2s attack, 1512 nano, 5s recharge, 120s duration. Use Conglomerate Health Plan as a team heal: insta-cast, 178 nano, 4.88 sec recharge

Combat: Assuming mass combat and not dueling. Also assume the doc is reasonably hard pressed – there’s combat around him, so there’s constant healing to be done. But there’s the occasional delay where he can <tab> to look for targets or <ctrl-tab> to look for injured alles. I’ll assume the following sequence of casting: UBT, LE, LE, SNG, WnR, CH, LE, LE, CHP, LE, LE, CH <and start over>. That’s roughly a 66 sec time frame costing a total of 7184 nano. I’ll arbitrarily add 5 sec for pauses to find targets/injured allies. So 7184 nano over 71 sec. If the doc is not using DoTs, then substitute LE for the DoTs. That would make it 4996 nano over 72 sec.

Nano Usage:
base usage is either 101.183 per sec or 63.39 per sec depending on use of DoTs
apply –39% cost modifier: 61.72 or 42.33 nano per sec
add regen from nanos/items and usage is either 28.39 or 9 nano per sec
So, with 6500 nano, a doc would run out in either 229 or 722 sec. Admittedly, a very rough estimate.

Apply Notum Rejection (+25% cost, leech 1.67 per sec) to this estimate:
base usage is either 101.183 per sec or 63.39 per sec depending on use of DoTs
apply -14% cost modifier: 87.02 or 59.67 nano per sec
add regen/leech and usage is 55.36 or 28.01 per sec
So, with 6500 nano, a doc would run out in 117.41 or 232.06 sec.

Apply Nottum Occlusion (+35% cost, leech 3.33 per sec)
base usage is either 101.183 per sec or 63.39 per sec depending on use of DoTs
apply –4% cost modifier: 97.14 or 66.61 nano per sec
add regen/leech and usage is 67.14 or 36.61 per sec
So, with 6500 nano, a doc would run out in 96.81 or 177.55 sec

Apply Nottum Denial (+45%, leech 5 per sec)
base usage is either 101.183 per sec or 63.39 per sec depending on use of DoTs
apply +6% cost modifier: 107.25 or 73.55 nano per sec
add regen/leech and usage is 78.92 or 45.22 nano per sec
So, with 6500 nano, a doc would run out in 82.36 or 143.74 sec

[Xtremtech]

Brilliant H and thanks everso!

I'm feeling that the effect is perhaps a little too heavy and that we'd want to aim for perhaps 50% faster, 55% faster and 60% faster rather than 68, 70, and 75. Something like:

Doc healing/debuffing will run out of nano in 722 sec
Doc healing/debuffing with Notum Rejection will run out in 366 sec (50% faster)
Doc healing/debuffing with Notum Occlusion will run out in 397 sec (55% faster)
Doc healing/debuffing with Notum Rejection will run out in 550 sec (60% faster)

We'll have to change the nanodrain portions of the new buffs (as the lowest nanocost is the same as at present). Can you work that out fairly easily from your figures H? It looks to me like nearly halving the nanodrain to make it about:

First) On Use modify target nano cost modifier 25
hit target current nano - .. -12 16 hits, 15s delay

Second) On Use modify target nano cost modifier 35
hit target current nano - .. -24 16 hits, 15s delay

Third) On Use modify target nano cost modifier 45
hit target current nano - .. -48 16 hits, 15s delay

Does that look about right? If so we'll go with that I think.

X

[_______________Hypos]

posted by X

Brilliant H and thanks everso!

Flatterer! Oh, I see, you want more numbers run Ok

New values are:
Rejection: +25% cost, -12 nano every 15s
Occlusion: +35% cost, -24 nano every 15s
Denial: +45% cost, -48 nano every 15s

New results are:
Rejection: nano is gone in 239.50s (66.83% faster)
Occlusion: nano is gone in 186.35s (74.19% faster)
Denial: nano is gone in 149.70s (79.27% faster)

So, the nano leech effect appears to be a very minor consideration. If you consider that CH takes about 9s at a cost of 1400 nano, the +25% cost on that is +350 nano, or +38.9 per sec. To get an equivalent effect, the nano leech number would have to be set at -583 nano every 15s.

removing the leech effect entirely gives us
Rejection: nano is gone in 246.77s ( 66.82%faster)
Occlusion: nano is gone in 195.31s ( 72.95%faster)
Denial: nano is gone in 161.61s ( 77.61%faster)

So, even the original, unimproved version of Nano Rejection caused the target to run out of nano 66% faster. But don't look just at the percentages here. Note that at +25% cost and no leech, the nano takes 246s to fully drain the doc. Note also, that the nano only lasts for 240s. Without the debuff, the doc would be able to chaincast for 722s (12 min) before running out of nano. With the +25% debuff, the doc can chain cast for 4 min. It sounds like a big reduction, but maybe that's not such a bad thing.

If we go back to the originally proposed numbers, Denial with +35% and 75/15s leech stopped the doc from chain casting after 143s. That's over 2 min. That gives the doc plenty of time to warn his team and try to move to a less hazardous area so the doc won't have to chain cast. And if the doc can stop chain casting, the effect of this nano drops.

Heh, I'm sure the NT and doc professionals would like to double check these numbers and the assumptions behind them before Notum Denial goes live That reminds me, should try an NT scenario. Maybe an Enf as well. Any other profs that rely on chain casting in combat?

Error Just realized that I forgot to take into account the new nano rechargers that can be used while under aggro. Use of those should increase the time a char can hold out while under Notum Rejection. Don't know the stats on those, right off.

Calculation details
Apply Notum Rejection (+25% cost, leech 0.8 per sec):
base usage is either 101.183 per sec or 63.39 per sec depending on use of DoTs
apply -14% cost modifier: 87.02 or 59.67 nano per sec
add regen/leech and usage is 54.49 or 27.14 per sec
So, with 6500 nano, a doc would run out in 119.29 or 239.50 sec.

Apply Nottum Occlusion (+35% cost, leech 1.6 per sec)
base usage is either 101.183 per sec or 63.39 per sec depending on use of DoTs
apply –4% cost modifier: 97.14 or 66.61 nano per sec
add regen/leech and usage is 65.41 or 34.88 per sec
So, with 6500 nano, a doc would run out in 99.37 or 186.35 sec

Apply Nottum Denial (+45%, leech 3.2 per sec)
base usage is either 101.183 per sec or 63.39 per sec depending on use of DoTs
apply +6% cost modifier: 107.25 or 73.55 nano per sec
add regen/leech and usage is 77.12 or 43.42 nano per sec
So, with 6500 nano, a doc would run out in 84.284 or 149.70 sec

Apply (+25% cost, no leech):
base usage is either 101.183 per sec or 63.39 per sec depending on use of DoTs
apply -14% cost modifier: 87.02 or 59.67 nano per sec
add regen/leech and usage is 53.69 or 26.34 per sec
So, with 6500 nano, a doc would run out in 121.07 or 246.77 sec.

Apply (+35% cost, no leech):
base usage is either 101.183 per sec or 63.39 per sec depending on use of DoTs
apply –4% cost modifier: 97.14 or 66.61 nano per sec
add regen/leech and usage is 63.81 or 33.28 per sec
So, with 6500 nano, a doc would run out in 101.86 or 195.31 sec

Apply (+45%, no leech):
base usage is either 101.183 per sec or 63.39 per sec depending on use of DoTs
apply +6% cost modifier: 107.25 or 73.55 nano per sec
add regen/leech and usage is 73.92 or 40.22 nano per sec
So, with 6500 nano, a doc would run out in 87.93 or 161.61 sec

[Xtremtech]

Ahhhh I see it. OK. I didn't take into account the speed of drop.

What's your feeling? Go with the first proposal? or reduce the leech?

X

[_______________Hypos]

posted by X

Go with the first proposal? or reduce the leech?

The effect is so small it's not much benefit. Leaving it out, might make it more likely to get the nano, throwing it in lays claim to the concept if you do get the nanos.

/shrug

[Xtremtech]

OK then we'll leave it in with a rider explanation that points out that the Devs may need to look at the amounts in order to balance the leech effect correctly against 'real' effects from HEs etc.

I'll do a final proposal later today

X