MP Wishlist: New init/dmg debuffs

[Sallust]

Wrath Abatement is our best init/dmg debuff.

at -37 damage and -261 weapon inits its truly pathetic for a high level caster.

It also tops out at at QL 179 and 853 matmet and 770 psymod reqs.

This should top out at -150 damage and -600 inits to truly be effective at high levels. Please adjust this line and add some new high level ones to it.

[Toxinator]

Yes pliz. It serves no purpose really.

[Xtremtech]

OK Guys,

I've been hoping for this wishlist thread to pop up because the dmg/init debuff should be one of our most useful debuffs as its effective in both PvP and PvM (PvE). The Doctor init/dmg debuffs recently got fixed so that they are truly effective in PvM too... so it shouldn't be too much to ask to get the MP ones adjusted.

Just to put this into its framework. The MP Dmg/Init debuff is supposed to be the corollary to the Doc Dmg/Init Debuffs which run between:

• Uncontrollable Body Tremors QL185: -1452 Inits/-20 Damage (taunt 705)
  to
  Lesser Muscle Atrophy QL17: -240 inits/-3 dmg (taunt 97)

The Doc also has a line that runs between:

• Festering Plague: -2569 Inits/-8 dmg (taunt 740)
  to
  Tired Limbs QL 7: -560 Inits/-1 Damage (taunt 94)

The debuff for the MP is:

• Wrath abatement QL179: -261 Init/-37 Damage (taunt 982)
  to Shed Anger QL7: -19 Init/-3 damage (taunt 60)

We also have the Mez/Calm nanos of the crat/nt which have an Init debuff (including Nano Init which ours don't have) in PvP in a range:

• Contemplation QL189 (Crat): -2100 Inits
  to Anger Addlement QL27 (Crat): -550 Inits
  
  Peaceful Intentions QL159 (NT): -802 Inits
  to Bewilder QL30 (NT): -291 Inits
  
  Simple Mind, Simple Pleasure QL162 (Trader): -173 inits
  to Distract with Trinkets QL20 (Trader): -50 inits

OK.... so given all this where should the MP dmg/init debuff lie?

Personally I'd be happy to continue with our debuff being intended as high hamage reduction/low init reduction debuff. But if this is to be the case then the damage portion of the debuff needs to be a great deal higher.

If we feel though, that the damage debuff portion of our debuff will never be raised to a decent level - then we should change the debuff round and make it a decent init debuff and a decent damage debuff.

I have a question regarding this that I've personally never been sure on:

Does the damage debuff take damage off the Base Damage of a hit? Or does it take damage off the Total Damage of a hit?

If you're up against somebody with a 1200 attack rating, then their damage is getting a muliple of 4.... so a -37 Base Damage debuff would actually reduce the hit by 148... but a -37 Total Damage debuff would only reduce the damage by 37.

Which is it?

This is an important question to have answered if we're to pitch a good suggestion regarding an improvement/change to the debuff.

X

[Alpherah]

Only one problem...

Originally posted by XtremTech
Personally I'd be happy to continue with our debuff being intended as high hamage reduction/low init reduction debuff.

LOL, whats hamage?

[_______________Hypos]

An excellent comparison list, X. One thing that I think should be added, though, is which lines are breakable. That is, if the debuffed target takes damage, can the damage cancel the debuff? In theory, if a debuff is breakable, it should have a bigger effect to make up for that disadvantage. For the doc nanos, the UBT lines will not break, while the Festering Plague line does break. If I recall correctly from the NW threads, all the calm/mez debuffs break.

Another balancing factor is that your Wrath Abatement line apparently does not effect nano init, unlike all the other lines you listed. Of course, MPs have other ways of dealing with nanos.

I think you should also look into an improvement/extension of the Notum Rejection line. As a doc, I've been involved in a few very lengthy duels. Notum Rejection could mess me up pretty well. Run a doc out of nano and he dies. You just need a reason to use it instead of a nano skill debuff. Maybe if it went against 90% NR instead of 140%.

Btw, how do I get a cool one letter nickname?

[Xtremtech]

One thing that I think should be added, though, is which lines are breakable.

Hiya H!

Yup... I'd say that the dmg/init debuff would have to be an unbreakable type.

For the MP, the moment he's debuffed (and taunted) a mob, that mob is on the attack pet's hatelist and he'll be hit pretty quick most of the time.

In PvP, since it doesn't have a NanoC-Init component it wouldn't be slowing nanocasting either - so the target will nearly always be in combat somewhere. I've always thought that the debuffs that were breakable by damage only really had a use when cast on support players casting nanos like debuffs/roots/heals etc... since ours doesn't affect NanoC-Init (as you say because we have other nanoskill debuffs) this really wouldn't apply.

X

[Xtremtech]

Here's a suggestion from Letah (one of the Doc Professionals):

Then keep the init debuff but lower the damage to the opposite of your animas?

I rather like the sound of this. This would make the damage part of the debuff start at 36 and go up to 254.

Now that's what I'd call a debuff! What does everybody else think of this suggestion?

X

[Bionitrous]

Anything would help, honestly. I tend towards greater damage reduction and basically forgetting about the init debuff. Assuming that our debuffs are stackable with either the Crat or Doc init debuffs, then what we get is enough.

The issue is that I notice NO difference when using even our highest debuff. I just don't use it. A doubling of damage dealt reduction across the board might change that. If there were some way to include a reduction to damage done by nanoformulas it could get even more interesting and stay within our RP 'notum rejector' role.

Honestly, I thought this was to be the role of our MezzPet, to essentially reduce the net damage done by hostiles. Since that pile of crap is broken beyond compare, (tried it again last night), it would be nice to be able to prolong encounters through the debuff line.

[Wizz]

I too would rather like to see the damage debuff increased rather than the inits.

OK you stated it is unlikely but to compare if debuffed by a doc you're going to land hits every aeon if I understood correctly. To make the top of the line damage/inits of the MP compete it should once landed achieve a similar result: you can land your hits with a slightly reduced speed but for so few damage it doesn't seem worth to.

I do agree with Bio that it makes sense RP-wise with us being masters of emotions (with the names of the line too). You cast a nano that makes your foe uninterested in dealing damage to you, or do it with much less conviction.

A mind-boggling thing is the very high taunting effect too. OK it's nice to have if you intend to tank, and I sometimes use it for that purpose.
Now if it's supposed to decrease an enemie's rage it should have a negative taunting effect, making you less likely to become the target.
As controllers of emotions we should be able to affect both effects at will. That such a control should be built in the anger nanos or separated from it so that you could cast a taunt negator on yourself and/or teammates is another question.

Only agents have a self only Repressor tool (and they need it, but it's because of gameplay mechanics) to divert agg from themselves. Having such a tool in our bag would make sense and help crowd control without us stepping on calmers toes.

[Xtremtech]

Hey Wizz... you think that taunt's high? Take a look at Curse of Chronos... 5663 or Mind Quake 1449.... There's a cold nuke proposal up at the moment with a de-taunt debuff rolled into it. That'd be nice.

I think bionitrous was pointing out that the damage modifiers don't modify nano damage (from nukes/Dot's) and that it might be nice if our debuff acted on nanodamage too.

I think this is a very interesting idea.

Bio: could you sketch me an idea of how much? What sorts of impacts you think it could have etc? Should it affect heal/beneficial nanos in terms of effect? How would you work it?

X

[Sallust]

How about scaling up to -250 damage/-600 inits at a QL 190 version (hypothetical) of the debuff?

I think wrath abatement should do something more like -150 damage/ - 500 inits.

-500 init might actually slow down the casual weapon user enough to notice a change, it wouldn't make them crawl like the Doc debuff does though.

We're not Traders with one sweeping nanoskill & weapon skill debuff. This is to help us balance out that ability.

BTW - I do currently use the damage/init debuffs on Traders and MAs (pre-nerf) effectively. Because of the critting weapons/gear this usually hurts them. Non-critting professions are hit hard enough to even notice this debuff, literally.

[_______________Hypos]

If you're going to focus on the damage debuff, then you may also want to look at existing AC buffs, which are roughly analagous to damage debuffs. The engie QL189 nano Ultimate Force Field adds 690 AC, which would be roughly equivalent to a 69 point damage debuff.

Since your damage debuff is short duration and needs to be cast on an opponent, it may be more analagous to the trader line. At QL185, the trader nano Pawnbroker's Armor adds 1190 AC and reduces the target AC by 1200. This is roughly equivalent to a 119 pt damage debuff and a 120 pt damage buff on anyone attacking that target. If you add those together, that's a 239 pt swing.

If you do get a damage debuff that goes up to the 250 range as has been suggested, that would effectively make MPs the master of AC control during combat. I suspect this is infringing on the territory of other profs, so it might be asking a bit much.

In addition to the question X brought up earlier, about how your nano interacts with attack rating; there's also the question of how it interacts with min damage. If a mob/player is already hitting for min damage, any AC buff will have no effect. Would the damage debuff have any effect in that situation?

[Sallust]

... except it isn't an AC buff. If I debuff a target's damage, and then he attacks the AC buffed engineer then he gets it better than ever. The damage debuff removes the final damage and can sink the target below minimum damage. Dang, that would be a GREAT idea for a MP & Engi PvP team. Yet another reason to get the buff.

Re Traders: MPs already overlap heavily with the Traders, we have all the same type of abilities; but different ways of doing it. We have weapon debuffs (ours are pathetic), we have nanoskill debuffs, we have nanoskill buffs, they have weapon buffs (we don't, and Traders are about the only ones who can buff our weapon skills), they have critty shotguns we have *hitty pets.

So to counter their AC drains and weapon skill depriving I think we should get a decent dmg/init debuff. Keep in mind that we ALREADY have one, this isn't a new line to infringe on them. We just want to make a line that we've had from the beginning work so that it is usable in PvP (whch is what it was intended for).

[Xtremtech]

Heya H,

The Pawnbroker's Armour is an excellent parallel indeed. Short termed AC effect... it also come up with a top of the line figure that looks like what we were suggesting with a debuff ranging from 36 to 254 over the QLs (in line with Letah's suggestion).

As to whether the damage debuff changes minimum damage - I couldn't tell you still.

I'll see if I can find out and report back.

Thanks for that H.

X

[_______________Hypos]

Woot! I got X to start calling me H!

/me goes looking for an Adv so she can do the happy leet dance

[Xtremtech]

I've had a reply on the Games Mechanics board telling me that the damage reduction come of the hit and not off the base damage.

To be honest this makes the damage reduction doubly bad...

I'll leave it a little while longer to see if anyone contradicts this, but I think that if the above is ture, then the idea of ranging the damage reduction from 36 to 254 over the QLs should be about right.

X

[Xtremtech]

Ummm the lower end damage reduction probably needs to stay nearer 5 or 6. It's occured to me that the low end mobs we fight would probably be doing 0 damage after the debuff.

X

[Xtremtech]

Bump.

This one could do with a little more feedback before I can really make a wishlist item of it.

X

[Wizz]

Questions to make things right:

1/ How much do mobs of high level hit on an average hit?

2/ From those how much would we like to take off?

3/ How much can we without other professions coming screaming "Nerf!"

4/ Does the mechanic need to be affected so that if we want a big enough debuff and it should affect base it can? Corrolary: should it?

5/ Do we want something equivalent in terms of damage diminution to a top level snare or a Doc inits top debuff or something more reasonnable?

[Xtremtech]

Excellent questions Wizz.

1/ How much do mobs of high level hit on an average hit?

• In QL195 XP-type missions probably about 250 to 350 per hit. Having said this, the doc init debuff would generally cause the mob to hit only once before it died whereas it might have hit 4 or 5 times otherwise. So the comparison at the highest level of debuff - 254 was suggested would work out well.

In higher level content it's not unusual for mobs to hit for 1000 to 1500 normal hits/ The record single hit I've taken was a crit from the Colonel at the Wailing Wastes clan base - 5500. I'm sure there have been higher ones recorded.

In PvP, I'm not so experienced but from what I read in posts hits will range from 300 up to 3000ish including crits and specials can be higher. I'd love some more input on this from more experienced PvPers as one of the major uses of this new dmg/init debuff would be in PvP.

2/ From those how much would we like to take off?

Part of the comparison is also against the comparitive elements though too. So Pawnbrokers armour which was mentioned above

This is roughly equivalent to a 119 pt damage debuff and a 120 pt damage buff on anyone attacking that target. If you add those together, that's a 239 pt swing

and the init debuffs that Docs and Crats have would also reduce damage by at least half for example. So there's a fair comparison here in levels of damage reduction I think - with the init debuffs still being much stronger than the damage debuff.

3/ How much can we without other professions coming screaming "Nerf!"

• I asked the Professionals to give some input on this question. There were zero responses to the request - so I'm assuming they didn't think of it as too threatening.

4/ Does the mechanic need to be affected so that if we want a big enough debuff and it should affect base it can? Corrolary: should it?

• I'm still looking for corroboration of the one guy's assertion that the damage debuff debuffs total hit damage and not the base damage.
  
  To be honest I'd think that debuffing base damage would be the best way to go. It's certainly more easy to balance and would also mean that the effectiveness across the range and across different opponents would be more fair.
  
  To be honest, I'd prefer it if it did affect base damage rather than total hit damage. If we go for changes to base damage I'd suggest a base damage reduction of -6 on the lowest QL to -110 at the highest QL.

5/ Do we want something equivalent in terms of damage diminution to a top level snare or a Doc inits top debuff or something more reasonnable?

• I don't think we'll ever be able to get a damage reduction like the top init debuffs of the Doc and the Crat. Still I think our goal should be making the dmg/init debuff a useful tool again - in particular at higher levels and in PvP rather than trying to equal the debuffs of other professions.

All in all I'd say that the following two proposals would be favoured by me:

1) If base damage is affected by the dmg/init debuff then a rise to a range of -6 at the lowest QL up to -110 at the highest QL would be in order.

2) If total hit damage is affected by the dmg/init debuff then a rise to a range of -6 at the lowest QL up to -254 at the highest QL would be in order.

X