Tonights Raid

[Brutal Truuth]

I want to send a shout out to both omni and Clan for tonights attack on Redemption base ( 2nd night in a row )

To clan : you guyz rock . I know i put on a huge Drama show here in the forums and most of the time im more trouble then im worth , But tonight im setting that aside (for the moment) to Thank you all :

Asmoran & Synergy Factor
Pomy / Hajk and Apoc
Black Dawn Syndicate
Storm / Ipmia you naughty Fixxer you :P
Piercingevil keep the He/jobes /Kels comin ( thought we forgot ya didnt ya :P ) and make sure those fixers dont get to comftrable
Lost Chapter / Pat you l00n , stop attacking their controlers :P
Yppo ( guildless ... someone should snatch her while shes free)
Eternity ( DONT ATTACK MY TOWER , ATTACK MESSMANS INSTEAD :P )
Diversity
Honeypearl / The naughty Girls Club : You rock , you go girl !

and all the Individuals that made it posssible to say this to Omni tonight " Neener neener Neeeeeeener "

To Omni : thank you for showing me how fun it is to Die in PvP . Like always you showed great spirit and i think Both sides can Agree on this : FC fix the CC so it stops warping people away to places waaaay far away from the battle.

Now i want to see you Brag like last night about how you "Gutted" Redemptions base. Tonight you only got 1/4 the base down. I'd watch your Backs also , We took names and now we will start to Give back what was given

Look forward to another enjoyable night of attacking Bases .

[Brutal Truuth]

P.S. Apoc is Da Devil



/me breaks out the Popcorn and watchs the drama unfold

[Intenseheat]

Simply put: the CC killed our attack. It wasn't there last night, and magically it appears tonight without even showing up in the launcher. After the first wave was screwed over since we fought in two groups, though only half of each group could be in the same place at the same time. Melee classes were *totally* screwed over as we couldn't get close enough to ANYTHING to cause any damage, be it towers or players. I don't suppose it was hard for your AoE NTs to sit behind their inner line of towers and nuke us and if we tried to go after 'em we'd get warped awaaaayy. Don't think this is the last time we'll go for that base, because it's obviously not, and next time we'll know that we have to fight both you AND the game.

[Brutal Truuth]

dont get my post wrong intense , i died from NT nukes from omni also . Alot of clanners were being warped out also . Im just posting to say it was fun and with alittle tweaking it will be enjoyable . POsting to say thank you to the clanners that showed up and to the Omni that gave us a run for the moeny . Take it as you want .

[_____________Rolller]

This isn't an OT thing or a Clan thing. CC is a bad thing. You cannot warp people away from where they want to be and not piss them off.

Get rid of CC all together please. Lag is better than CC.

[Nyderach]

I really couldn't care less about who's favoring who.. but it's plain STUPID when you have defenders sitting behind CC boundaries chain aoe nuking the hell out of attackers who get rubberbanded all over the zone when they try to get close enough to retaliate. That is what tonight's raid was. That's what every large raid is. Either that or you have all the defenders getting warped out because the attackers are squeezing the borders so tightly.

There is no balance, the latency reduction is barely noticeable. Don't fix CC, get rid of it. It doesn't work, and it's not going to work. How about you all (FC) work on improving your servers instead? They can barely handle this nonsense with CC.

[Razzitazz]

I never be mentioned in these posts ::sniff::

Man, I took out a good 20 omni tonight .

And Intense, this was a nice post, no need to fill it up with pointless dribble about something we cant control. Before I started smacking your fixers and busting AE on you all, you know what happened? I rush up, nuke a fixer, try to run back to fellow clanners. I get warped back 8!!! times, and get killed by a group of like 10 omni. No fun, dealth with it.

You know how many clanners were going beserk about dying to CC crap? The only way you cannot get effected by it is if you defend in one single spot, something I didn't do once all night.

So eat it, and I hope i killed you with Kels.

[Lucien]

Just so you know I'm currently gathering feedback on the crowd control. I witnessed the battle on Friday morning against Redemption and also the one last night against the Dragon Security Agency.

Battle 1:
What I witnessed with Redemption was a huge problem, there were approximately 80-100 Omni members in a very small area split into 2 separate groups.

Redemption members were angry because they couldn't even get into the area to defend their towers, I myself got 1 character stuck in a crash loop there.

Battle 2:
The second battle went a lot better in my eyes, defenders were able to get into the area even though there were a lot of clan people there to attack the base.

The crowd control was teleporting people out, and it was not teleporting them to the correct locations. This will be fixed (especially since that location is outside the zone line)

Conclusions
What I witnessed in the first battle was not a battle at all. The defenders could not get into the area even though they wanted to, many people ended up in crash loops as a result and a lot of hard work was lost on that base (some of which may have been avoided).

The second battle looked very much like a learning experience, it was the first time many people had experienced the crowd control system. Towards the end of the battle things got a lot more coordinated, there was a group at the crowd control spot simply to warp people back to the battle etc.

There were certainly more than 30 people attacking the controller, and many in the area were not in combat at all. It was quite obvious that if you controlled the positioning of your groups around the controller you could avoid the crowd control.

Certainly what I witnessed was far more playable in the second battle (I had 25fps and almost no lag).

Looking for feedback
I'd like some feedback from you guys on the following questions:
1. Which is worse, not being able to defend your base, or the current crowd control system?
2. With the current implimentation of crowd control do you feel that if you control your forces better it will affect you less? (ie have people stand on opposite sides of the towers, split up into multiple attack groups etc)
3. If we fix the current issues with crowd control will it be a more acceptable solution?

I have a long list of suggestions from what I have seen so far, I'm going to keep watching, reading your feedback etc over the weekend. I hope we can come up with a solution from the feedback we've recieved, it will not be ideal but it will be better than crashes and disconnects when there is no limit at all.

(Ideal is to have no lag with 1 million people in a small area... ideal is not realistic though)

[____________Travesty]

I was in the attack on the Dragon Security Base. I have to say the only struggle we had was with the Crowd Control. We were still able to knock out most of the towers, but we suffered constant losses from getting near the twelve people or so that were attacking the towers. Team members would get teleported into the Borderlands between PW and Mort. Thus our firepower and healing capabilities were in constant flux.

What really upset me was near the end, a couple of teams of omnis finally made a real counterattack. Unfortunately for the clan, we lost an entire team to CC just before the attack came. By the time some of us made it back(my fourth such trip in the battle), the clan forces were in chaos. I landed on a hill next to an Ark and attempted to help. To my surprise, I couldnt move without getting warped around the hill. I had to watch our forces getting decimated. Then, two of the omnis finally got around to me. I attempted to attack and was still getting warped back to the top of the hill. Mind you, Im a ma. So, Im getting shot and cant fight back. I was rooted by the fixer, to which i laughed....save your nano! I was stuck by the game!...and then killed seconds after I finally got off the hill.

I would set up more teleport points so we dont have to fly for five minutes to get back into the fray. I can't imagine what it would be like for those that can't fly. Also, if the servers can't handle three teams attacking in a small area without it rooting or microwarping you....this whole thing isnt going to work. I hope the restrictions this time were just too tight. There is no doubt to anyone at that battle that the outcome was determined by crowd control and not by the combatants.

[____________Travesty]

To your questions Lucien:

1. Come on, of course we want to defend our base. We all want Notum Wars to work.

2. We have no choice but to change how attacks are made and how they are defended. No more than two teams can attack a single tower. When defending, the same applies. The players will have to show the ability to communicate and coordinate much much better. Though what happens when two defending teams counterrattack two attacking teams? Currently, we get warped too much for it to be considered playable.

3. Again yes, of course, we want things to work. We don't want to collapse the playfields. We want to play the game.

[Lucien]

Thank you for the excellent feedback Travesty

[Coldstrike]

From my experience from the first battle you mentioned, I really have to say that anything is better than that. I had all my characters stuck in crashloops, so did many others in my guild.

Was playing in some other battles today with CC enabled, and even if the rubberbanding was pretty annoying I still think it worked a little better. Lag was significantly less, and we got to have some more equally matched fights within the smal zones. People actually being able to shoot and cast when they wanted to etc.

I admit, I got sorta pissed off the first time I rubber banded, but once I found out what was going on I quickly tried alternative routes out of my little zone and it worked ok.


To answer your questions,

1. I really prefer CC over lag any time. The biggest problem for me and many others have been the icredible lag in some of the battles, and this system goes a long way in removing that lag. I say that both as an attacker and as a defender. I have been to too many battles where one of the sides have shown up with such numbers that it have stopped the battle without a single shot being fired. And that isn't fun for either side.

2. From what I have experienced of the current system, better planning makes the CC system more transparent. For instance sending in multiple teams from different directions.

3. Yeah. One change I would like to see is to make teamed players have a higher chance of being able to stay in the same zone tho.

[Kasdan]

I think FC also needs to look at the effect CC has on the melee class. Yes range classes are effected hugely but at lest they can stand just outside the rubber banded effect and shoot the towers and the odd player that gets too close.

Melee classes on the other hand just can't get close enough to a tower to get in range to be able to hit. As soon as we do we get ported a very short distance out of range. Only way for us to be able to get close is split off from the group and try and go it alone which as you might expect isn't a very good idea.

I'm a MA and I can use a Bow. So you might thing I'm ok, I can stand in range of the towers and hit them. Well some times I can but the bow doesn't have a very long range so again most of the time I can't shoot a tower. However, when I can shoot the tower my bow with a clip of 3-5 spends more time reloading than shooting. I might aswell hit Q then go afk and hope the healers keep me alive. Nothing else I can do. I have no speacials other than AS but I don't think they work vs towers.

So in conclusion for CC to work you have to let the melee class get close enough to the towers.

[aaronb]

First, Truuth, we're happy to help and thanks for the thanks.

And on to Lucien's questions...

Originally posted by Lucien
Looking for feedback
I'd like some feedback from you guys on the following questions:
1. Which is worse, not being able to defend your base, or the current crowd control system?
2. With the current implimentation of crowd control do you feel that if you control your forces better it will affect you less? (ie have people stand on opposite sides of the towers, split up into multiple attack groups etc)
3. If we fix the current issues with crowd control will it be a more acceptable solution?

I have a long list of suggestions from what I have seen so far, I'm going to keep watching, reading your feedback etc over the weekend. I hope we can come up with a solution from the feedback we've recieved, it will not be ideal but it will be better than crashes and disconnects when there is no limit at all.

Lucien, thank you for attending these raids and your communication with us. In response to your questions:

I understand that crowd control is a necessity here and I realize that it will take some tweaking to get things ironed out. In our attacks on DSA (this was our third attempt in three days), we are learning how to work the game mechanics of crowd control along with racing the clock to be able to take down that QL250 controller. It's entirely reasonable to expect us to use a little bit of strategy to operate in such a way that makes the playfield stable.

There are a couple major issues that need to be addressed, however:

1. A QL250 controller should be nearly impossible to take down... but not completely impossible. The DSA base is one of the smallest (if not the smallest) QL250 bases in the game right now. Completely undefended but populated with towers, I'm not sure if it's possible for us to get enough people organized in a way that will allow us to clear the towers with enough time remaining to dedicate to the controller. I expect that a completely undefended QL250 controller will take two full hours to destroy given the limitation on the number of players that can be assaulting it without being thrown out of range by the crowd control. Based on the amount of time it takes to clear the rest of the base, we need the full five hours to do it and very likely more. And this is without any defenders.

2. For the defenders, a better solution needs to be in place for people in the same faction to defend. Shortly ago, we went to defend Diversity's QL200 controller in Belial Forest. We were unable to provide any sort of defense because crowd control removed us from the area. In the chaos, there isn't enough time for us to get teamed with members of Diversity to overcome that limitation. During the 25% period, it would be better to allow anyone of the same faction to get in as part of the defensive force. I realize this opens up some griefing possibilities, but it would be a better solution than what we have now -- a completely useless defensive force watching a crowd of attackers huddled around the controller.


We've been cooking up some strategies to work around the crowd control limitations, including separation of damage and support teams and other things I won't mention. We will continue to attempt to take down a QL250 base, but I'm skeptical that we'll be able to do this with any defensive force present.

[Lucien]

Originally posted by aaronb
1. A QL250 controller should be nearly impossible to take down... but not completely impossible. The DSA base is one of the smallest (if not the smallest) QL250 bases in the game right now. Completely undefended but populated with towers, I'm not sure if it's possible for us to get enough people organized in a way that will allow us to clear the towers with enough time remaining to dedicate to the controller. I expect that a completely undefended QL250 controller will take two full hours to destroy given the limitation on the number of players that can be assaulting it without being thrown out of range by the crowd control. Based on the amount of time it takes to clear the rest of the base, we need the full five hours to do it and very likely more. And this is without any defenders.

2. For the defenders, a better solution needs to be in place for people in the same faction to defend. Shortly ago, we went to defend Diversity's QL200 controller in Belial Forest. We were unable to provide any sort of defense because crowd control removed us from the area. In the chaos, there isn't enough time for us to get teamed with members of Diversity to overcome that limitation. During the 25% period, it would be better to allow anyone of the same faction to get in as part of the defensive force. I realize this opens up some griefing possibilities, but it would be a better solution than what we have now -- a completely useless defensive force watching a crowd of attackers huddled around the controller.

1. Yes Cz and I are aware of this issue, incidentally both of the battles yesterday ended the same way. I can't really say anymore than that at the moment, we will discuss it though I assure you

2. This is a difficult one... I've seen a lot of suggestions floating around the forums about this and one thing we need to remember is that the organization that owns the towers should always be allowed in as defenders before other factions of the same side. This does sound like something that needs to be discussed though.

[aaronb]

Originally posted by Lucien

1. Yes Cz and I are aware of this issue, incidentally both of the battles yesterday ended the same way. I can't really say anymore than that at the moment, we will discuss it though I assure you

2. This is a difficult one... I've seen a lot of suggestions floating around the forums about this and one thing we need to remember is that the organization that owns the towers should always be allowed in as defenders before other factions of the same side. This does sound like something that needs to be discussed though.

1. Okay, look forward to the results.

2. I think this is where the alliance system is really a necessity. Perhaps there could be two levels to this: permanent and temporary alliances:

We have verbal alliances right now with a few clan organizations that we work together with for offensive and defensive strategies. These would be categorized as permanent alliances. I'm perfectly happy to have these people with the same ability as I have to defend my base at any given time.

To use tonights defense for Diversity as an example of the latter, it would have been effective to have part of the leadership team (top two ranks or whatever) with the ability to form a temporary alliance -- granting us the ability to act as members of their organization in their defense. Synergy Factor had two full teams there to defend with no ability to get close enough to the controller to even target the attackers. Had Diversity been able to allow us to defend as part of their membership, we would have at least had a shot at protecting the area.

These are just ideas. I'm sure there are pros and cons to it, but I do think that the alliance system is the key to resolving this issue.

[____________Factotum]

just to get something right here...

talking about DSA tower ...

if you witnessed it you sure have seen that the clanners were almost alone in the controlled area and hit the tower for 1 hour and several minutes without beeing attacked...

what you think happend?

no ..we didnt fall asleep...

50% of our members were in a crash loop....

the few who made it to the zone came by yalm....

the others poped in the area all at different times..so no problem to smash them because the were alone.

some clanner will remember that me and kbok popped out several times and standing alone infront of a smiling bunch of 30plus clanners.
of cause they kicked our asses to reclaim 1 sec after grace period.

so i have 2 things to point out here..maybe that helps.

1.)
crash loop started with clan attacking controller.
so at the time they were busy with some turrets a few steps a way from grid exit point..it worked.
but as soon as they started to work at the controller itself: no chance to enter the base through grid for 1 HOUR!

so it was not possible to defend at all through this time.

2.)
the second one is more a question.
almost all defenders were hanging in the crash loop....

the 3-5 defender that made it into the zone got warped.

so..
HOW can it be possible that a base is attacked by approx 30 clanners and not a SINGLE omni is allowed to zone in???
(its not a clanner/omni thing...just in this example it is)

does cc count the ones which are in a crash loop as "zoned in"?
what is ahppening here.
isn cc supposed to allow same amount of players from both sides?

pls take a look into that to give us feedback.

DSA isnt a big guild with many 150 plus....we need our aliances to other guilds..and of cause its way more difficult to motivate people to defend a base if its FLAT OUT IMPOSSIBLE to get in there.

[Boci]

Originally posted by Lucien
Just so you know I'm currently gathering feedback on the crowd control. I witnessed the battle on Friday morning against Redemption and also the one last night against the Dragon Security Agency.

Battle 1:
What I witnessed with Redemption was a huge problem, there were approximately 80-100 Omni members in a very small area split into 2 separate groups.

Redemption members were angry because they couldn't even get into the area to defend their towers, I myself got 1 character stuck in a crash loop there.

Battle 2:
The second battle went a lot better in my eyes, defenders were able to get into the area even though there were a lot of clan people there to attack the base.

The crowd control was teleporting people out, and it was not teleporting them to the correct locations. This will be fixed (especially since that location is outside the zone line)

Conclusions
What I witnessed in the first battle was not a battle at all. The defenders could not get into the area even though they wanted to, many people ended up in crash loops as a result and a lot of hard work was lost on that base (some of which may have been avoided).

The second battle looked very much like a learning experience, it was the first time many people had experienced the crowd control system. Towards the end of the battle things got a lot more coordinated, there was a group at the crowd control spot simply to warp people back to the battle etc.

There were certainly more than 30 people attacking the controller, and many in the area were not in combat at all. It was quite obvious that if you controlled the positioning of your groups around the controller you could avoid the crowd control.

Certainly what I witnessed was far more playable in the second battle (I had 25fps and almost no lag).

Looking for feedback
I'd like some feedback from you guys on the following questions:
1. Which is worse, not being able to defend your base, or the current crowd control system?
2. With the current implimentation of crowd control do you feel that if you control your forces better it will affect you less? (ie have people stand on opposite sides of the towers, split up into multiple attack groups etc)
3. If we fix the current issues with crowd control will it be a more acceptable solution?

I have a long list of suggestions from what I have seen so far, I'm going to keep watching, reading your feedback etc over the weekend. I hope we can come up with a solution from the feedback we've recieved, it will not be ideal but it will be better than crashes and disconnects when there is no limit at all.

(Ideal is to have no lag with 1 million people in a small area... ideal is not realistic though)

Well..after losing my orgs base the other night..CRAZY fast due to the number of clanners present...i think that at its Core CC is a good idea...but the way it works right now is just crazy. ATM you cant be sure how far away your gonna be warped..if youll end up poppin in next to some enemies or not etc..

So my suggestion would be:
Find a way to make the warp point constant..but in75% to limit warpee camping (although itll prolly happen anyway)

Ive no other ideas atm...but at the higher range of QL..the current CC limitation kills the attackers just as much as the defenders, theres just not enough firepower to do anything.

At the lower levels..aka 200 It doesnt do enough...because the power curve on towers seems screwy, 200s are crazy easy...while 250s etc are nutso tough in comparison. A lil balance would make the CC issues not as bad, simply because either 1) 200s are tough enough that their worth fighting again..and 2) 250+ becomes a viable option within current CC rules...


Just a few thoughts froma silly trox chef

[_________Divinecross]

Dont think DSA has worry about thier base falling even they dont defend it Proven that base can take care of itself pretty well.

[____________Factotum]

<<Dont think DSA has worry about thier base falling even they dont defend it. Proven that base can take care of itself pretty well.>>


funny that some people watching boards that cannot read....

i wonder where they take their fun from?

no pictures to watch....no voice explaining those strange looking signs....

??