MP Wishlist: Creation Bow

[Xtremtech]

Here you go then, I've had a crack of extending the range of bows (as proposed) to make a line of 4 (as is standard for creation weapons).

I've left the requirements for nanoskills off because the new FC calculations for requirements are a mystery to me pretty much.

X



Secondary Damage-source Creation Bow
==========================

The "Seraph"-line of creation bows is not intended to replace the existing creation weapons. The existing melee creation weapons provide the MP with oft needed defensive and nano related benefits. Rather the new line is meant to provide the MP with a creation weapon that can give a good source of secondary damage - while in no way taking the place of the core Meta-Physicist toolset of Pet and Nuke.

Meta-physicists as a profession are drawn largely from the nanomage breed pool. This leaves the MP frail in many ways and open to consderable damage for much of his professional life. As a result, the MP prefers to stand back from a fight, letting his manifestations of anger battle hand to hand with his target, while the MP uses his mastery of cold and mind to inflict damage from a distance.

As such, it it is impossible for the MP to add his meagre damage to that of his pets and nukes with his creation weapons as these weapons require him to put himself in a great deal of danger by moving to hand to hand combat range with his attacker. This new line of Bows will allow the MP to retain some range for those situations where he is required to inflict weapons damage on his foes.

The Seraphim: The word means fiery ones, in allusion, as is supposed, to their burning love. They are represented as "standing" above the King as he sat upon his throne, ready at once to minister unto him. Their form appears to have been human, with the addition of wings.

Seraphim Flame

Description
This special bow is created through the solidification of matter by a skilled meta-physicist. The flaming bolts fired from this weapon are derived from incendiary semi-physical manifestations of the meta-physicist's anger. Thus no ammunition is needed however each shot drains the wielder of nano energy.

Level: QL31
Equip time: 5 s
Attack time: 4.5 s
Recharge time: 2.5 s
Range: 20 m
Init skill: Phys Init
Clip: none
Damage: 16-67(50) - fire ac
Defense skills Dodge Ranged 100

Attack skills:
time and space 80
bow 20

Requirements to Wear
Time and Space >= ???
bow >= 146
aimed shot >= 73
level >= 35

Effects:
modify self nanopool -12



Seraphim Fire

Description
This special bow is created through the solidification of matter by a skilled meta-physicist. The flaming bolts fired from this weapon are derived from incendiary semi-physical manifestations of the meta-physicist's anger. Thus no ammunition is needed however each shot drains the wielder of nano energy.

Level: QL61
Equip time: 5 s
Attack time: 4.5 s
Recharge time: 2.5 s
Range: 20 m
Init skill: Phys Init
Clip: none
Damage: 33-138(103) - fire ac
Defense skills Dodge Ranged 100

Attack skills:
time and space 80
bow 20

Requirements to Wear
Time and Space >= ???
bow >= 300
aimed shot >= 150
level >= 70

Effects:
modify self nanopool -28



Seraphim Inferno

Description
This special bow is created through the solidification of matter by a skilled meta-physicist. The flaming bolts fired from this weapon are derived from incendiary semi-physical manifestations of the meta-physicist's anger. Thus no ammunition is needed however each shot drains the wielder of nano energy.

Level: QL120
Equip time: 5 s
Attack time: 4.5 s
Recharge time: 2.5 s
Range: 20 m
Init skill: Phys Init
Clip: none
Damage: 63-261(194) - fire ac
Defense skills Dodge Ranged 100

Attack skills:
time and space 80
bow 20

Requirements to Wear
Time and Space >= ???
bow >= 566
aimed shot >= 284
level >= 130

Effects:
modify self nanopool -53



Seraphim Conflagration

Description
This special bow is created through the solidification of matter by a skilled meta-physicist. The flaming bolts fired from this weapon are derived from incendiary semi-physical manifestations of the meta-physicist's anger. Thus no ammunition is needed however each shot drains the wielder of nano energy.

Level: QL180
Equip time: 5 s
Attack time: 4.5 s
Recharge time: 2.5 s
Range: 20 m
Init skill: Phys Init
Clip: none
Damage: 95-395 (295) - fire ac
Defense skills Dodge Ranged 100

Attack skills:
time and space 80
bow 20

Requirements to Wear
Time and Space >= ???
bow >= 705
aimed shot >= 485
level >= 185

Effects:
modify self nanopool -80

[Xtremtech]

Just one comment X, when I said use this as a template I assumed 80/20 TS/Bow req not 100% bow req. We can reach 1000+ TS no problem.

Lol Seraph,

We'd get a bow that was more powerful than the newest MA only bow: the Howling Bow in the hands of the green Bow skill MAs (because they can't get their AR up as high as we could)....

You might as well just go ahead and give us Green Bow skill and let us equip any normal bow we like. It's essentially what you're doing if you make a bow that MPs create and use but that stays competitive with the MP's with Manex's and X3s.

The only bows that come close to that right now that I can think of, are QL200 versions of:

Premium Reet-Tech Venom Compound Bow
High Quality Schuyler Bow 200
Howling Bow of Ferocious Appetite 200
Premium Kevlar Bow 200
Premium Reet-Tech Stryker X

These bows would just about be equippable for MPs if we had green bow skill. Wouldn't it be easier for you to simply push for that in the MP Wishlist: Weapons Skills thread?

X

[Autocratt]

OK, since I get to focus on PvP, here are my four modified bows. Notice I added a nano cost penalty to offset the no clip design and added an evade bonus. 3.0/1.0 is the same as a MCS and similar to an Assassin Caterwaul which I based these bows on. The top bow will probably require a wrangle to cast and equip but then you are good for two hours.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Seraph's Fiery Fury
Nano QL 228
Equip time 5.0 s
Attack time 3.0 s
Recharge time 1.0 s
Range 28 m
Init skill physical init
Clip none
Damage 68-456 (228) - fire ac
Defense skills
duck explosives 100

Attack skills:
time and space 80
bow 20

Requirements
time and space >= 1095
bow >= 725
aimed shot >= 617

Effects
modify user nano cost modifier 10
modify user duck explosives 50
modify user dodge ranged 50
modify user evade clsc 50
------------------------------------------------------------------
Seraph's Fire
Nano QL 173
Equip time 5.0 s
Attack time 3.0 s
Recharge time 1.0 s
Range 28 m
Init skill physical init
Clip none
Damage 51-346 (173) - fire ac
Defense skills
duck explosives 100

Attack skills:
time and space 80
bow 20

Requirements
time and space >= 881
bow >= 583
aimed shot >= 496

Effects
modify user nano cost modifier 12
modify user duck explosives 40
modify user dodge ranged 40
modify user evade clsc 40
------------------------------------------------------------------
Seraph's Flame
Nano QL 129
Equip time 5.0 s
Attack time 3.0 s
Recharge time 1.0 s
Range 28 m
Init skill physical init
Clip none
Damage 38-258 (129) - fire ac
Defense skills
duck explosives 100

Attack skills:
time and space 80
bow 20

Requirements
time and space >= 669
bow >= 444
aimed shot >= 377

Effects
modify user nano cost modifier 14
modify user duck explosives 30
modify user dodge ranged 30
modify user evade clsc 30
------------------------------------------------------------------
Seraph's Flare
Nano QL 79
Equip time 5.0 s
Attack time 3.0 s
Recharge time 1.0 s
Range 28 m
Init skill physical init
Clip none
Damage 23-158 (79) - fire ac
Defense skills
duck explosives 100

Attack skills:
time and space 80
bow 20

Requirements
time and space >= 393
bow >= 264
aimed shot >= 225

Effects
modify user nano cost modifier 16
modify user duck explosives 20
modify user dodge ranged 20
modify user evade clsc 20
------------------------------------------------------------------

[Wizz]

Those should lock pet casting (at least attack pet) and kill any existing attack pet upon equipping.
Should not be a problem if you don't use pets anyway but it would check that you're not overpowered. Not all classes can root/snare/charm.

[Xtremtech]

Hiya Seraph,

You may need to rethink the requirements on the Bow side a bit.

I have 745 Bow now at level 185 and I don't have the faded Bow cluster in because it conflicts with Time and Space. I don't think an MP could easily reach the TS requirement you have without the Faded cluster... but even so my 745 Bow is already more than enough to equip the very top QL in your range. It looks like you took similar bow requirements to the proposal I posted... but your bow is going to do a great deal more damage than the one from earlier in the thread and you'll need to set the requirements accordingly.

At level 200 with my present implant set-up I'll have 775+ Bow.

To be honest, having gone for your option of:

1) High Damage
2) Fire AC
3) Duck Explosives
4) Adding buffing benefits in evades

This would be pretty much the number one best bow in the game as far as I can tell.

My immediate thought was that you might need to make them like a Fixer's summoned weapons in duration (12 hours of game time) and require a decent wrangle to get the top one on.... making the Bow requirement something along the lines of about 850. You know my opinions on this... but given the levels of damage in comparison to other such weapons - you need to have a very high bow requirement to make it make sense I think.

I do recognise that you have a very high TS requirement and that the MP will need to make a significant implant commitment to be able to reach it self-casting - but the wrangle would help there too... without the high bow skill, you're not really being made to invest skill and effort into reaching the weapon. Also, the TS requirement would only be needed to get the weapon cast and wear it. You could let your TS drop considerably afterwards and only lose in attack rating.

The Nanocost modifier: is your thought that since you haven't added a per shot nano cost to the weapon you've just added an overall cost.... and so since the higher level players use more nano - the cost to them will still be greater?

But the bow is essentially totally free of charge to an MP, no nano cost, no arrows, no reload as long as you don't nuke. And if you run a CPU upgrade and Nanocost reducing buff (both of which we have in spades) and just reduce the amount of nuking you're doing - because you're doing such great damage with the bow.... then the penalty won't bite.

I think you'd be better off with a straight nanocost/shot effect and have it affected by nanocost buffs etc. That way at least every shot is guaranteed to have at least some cost.

As to the evades benefits.... well it's your proposal. FC did say quite clearly that the damage on the existing creations wouldn't be raised because they were meant as buffing weapons that gave benefits. It was only when we suggested removing the buffs that they seemed to take more interest in raising the damage. Now you've gone ahead and raised the damage by orders of magnitude and still left a buff on it. Can't see them going for it myself.

X

[Autocratt]

The bow req mirrored the 2HB req on the Creations and thus is as irrelevant or easy to put on as the existing Creations. I don't know why you think we need to be stretched in Bow req. The nanoskill reqs are damn high (but I took into account TL 5 max Atrrox MP's too.) Don't forget, in order to cast this you will need 1095 in BM, MC and TS so all 5 major nano clusters spots are taken up AND you lose Shining Nano Resist. (Damn forgot to put in the nano resist buff in the above bows, editing now )

In PvP, the nano cost penalty is significant. You will definitely be nuking/debuffing in PvP and all nano cost reducing buffs have already been taken into account so there is definitely a marginal cost to nano casting.

Xtrem, this bow is NOT overpowered by any means. I can equip a QL 200 Assassin Caterwaul:
http://auno.org/ao/db.php?cmd=view&id=160192&t=ag
which everyone would agree is less powerful than an X-3 and get an AMS of 940. The Caterwaul fires at 2.9/1.1 ROF and does 10-410 (280) - energy ac. Remember my first bow was supposed to fire 1/1. Now on phys init we'd be lucky to get 3.5/1 on 0% agg/def. And an Agent can self-equip this and use a TIM scope, my top bow is not possible without a wrangle and giving up Shining Nano Resist.

Again, I think the argument is will anyone use it after the novelty effect wears off. I do not see why it is unbalancing to create a weapon that compares to the suite of other regular weapon choices a MP has. If it is not as good as Hayake said, why make it at all. And one more thing I forgot, I believe Bows can still be parried.

Frankly, if you know something I don't I'll just settle for Seraph's Feeble Flame and not bother with the frustration of seeing another Robinson Crystal type wep show up in a future patch database.

OK, MP's where are the rest of you! Need you to chime in!

[Autocratt]

Cmon MP's, someone else needs to say I'm wrong besides X!

[Xtremtech]

Rofl... maybe nobody disagrees or maybe nobody else made it this far down the thread....

Xtrem, this bow is NOT overpowered by any means.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. With the addition of Fire AC, The highest Bow Attack Rating in the game and in particular Duck Explosives... it will be without a doubt, the most powerful Bow in the game. No contest.

Still... as I said it's your proposal.

If it is not as good as Hayake said, why make it at all.

Mate... why make any new weapons at all? Why have any variety? There's always one gun per skill that is the best at any one time. Why not just delete the others?

Now ask me why I love playing an MA MP... it sure as sherlock isn't because I outdamage a Manex.... Ho hum.... We don't all play this game as a manic headlong rush to squeeze the last drop of damage out of it. I know that lots do... but I also know lots who don't.

We sit on different sides of a completely different attitude to this game. I've been here before and it's cool.

In PvP, the nano cost penalty is significant.

Could be... might not in practice. You never know how people will play a thing. They might take advantage of this for totally free unfettered shots. Why not just put a flat nanocost on each shot. That way you can be sure that it will make an impact whatever they do. Take someone soloing a mission. Put pet on press Q.... why bother nuking? you'd only waste costly nano.

Anyhoo.... if nobody else turns up an objection I'll add it to the list.

X

P.S. AND NANO REIST!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

/me shakes head, sighs and wanders off to the next thread...

[Autocratt]

Originally posted by XtremTech
We're going to have to agree to disagree. With the addition of Fire AC, The highest Bow Attack Rating in the game and in particular Duck Explosives... it will be without a doubt, the most powerful Bow in the game. No contest.

Well, I'd like to get Psiraven to chime in on this. As I understand it in PvP, 3500 AC is the max taken into consideration so whether Fire or Chem or Projectile, at 3500 AC there is no difference. And Duck is usually weaker in PvP by maybe 121 points but since I don't have a high crit on this bow it is not much of an issue. Since it was fiery bolts I figured Duck sounded better but I don't really care if it is Dodge.

When the MA's eventually get their evil Howling Bow into the game that will become the most powerful Bow in the game.

Again, I'd like to ask Psiraven how safe it is to PvP without Shining Nano Resist in the head. If I recall, her crat even goes the extra step of running the +Nano Resist speech vs. crit or off/def speeches. Giving up 105 Nano Resist to use this Bow plus the +10% nano cost penalty is IMHO significant.

No one will give up nuking or debuffing in PvP and just shoot this bow, I can guarantee that. We will be drained of nano or debuffed before that happens.

Well it is supposed to be a PvP bow just like the revised Pow Bow and Howling Bow.

OK, MP's where are you?????????

[Xtremtech]

Seraph's Fiery Fury in the hands of a level 200 MP: 4120 damage per 10 seconds at full aggdef without Aimed Shot. (This assumes implant set-up of QL200 as described in posts above)

Howling Bow in the hands of a level 200 MA: 4335 per 10 seconds and the bow has no Aimed Shot. (this assumes fully implanted at QL200 for all 3 bow clusters and all 3 Phys Init clusters)

It would only be the MA's crit buff that made him do more damage. Without it the MP with Seraph's Fiery Fury would do 210 less damage per 10 seconds but using Aimed Shot would easily overtake the MA... QL200 weapon. At full def in the above calculations... they both did the same damage without the MPs Aimed Shot caclulated in...

You should also keep in mind that the MA while wearing the Howling Bow is losing Brawl, MA Specials, Dimach etc from his damage profile - while the MP is losing nothing. Hmmmm....

X

[______________KALZEN]

they look good but a couple of questions,

Why aimed shot ? every wep class ive tried with aimed shot can hardley use it due to mobs allready seeing them, i think it might be ok on higher bows when u can afford to put ip into conceal for pvp, but at lower lvls its just a ip sink,if u have to have a speacial i would prefer fling maybe at lower lvls.

Also the bow reqs are high it will be hard to reach the reqs to equip it i think, but i prob am wrong, i hope im wrong

Also they are very slow that means alot of ip into whatever ini they will use, whatabout a fast bow with a bit less damage as an option?

Anyway keep up the good work X

[Xtremtech]

Hi Wallis,

Yup the bows are designed to be easier to get on at higher levels and also easier to get up to speed at higher levels. To be honest at the lower levels you'll mostly be using the bows to add a little, slow extra damage to your pets and nukes and you won't be wanting the aggro you might get from a fast shooting bow.

Nevertheless, the line gives lower level MPs that choose a secondary damage option to follow that line with the investment of some IP. I didn't want to close out choices for MPs of any levels.

And also keep in mind that bow is one of the cheapest weapons skills we have so it's not half as bad as it could have been.

As to aimed shot... well you don't actually have to sneak to get the Aimed Shot off against mobs you just have to catch them unawares. In missions this is reasonably possible by darting into a room, tabbing quickly and hitting aimed shot. It's probably more of an issue out of doors but I'd imagine you coul get a feel for the range and do it from a distance. I know I used to hunt with aimed shot using classes at NW mines who didn't have many issues with it.

X

[Autocratt]

There is no concealment check in PvP. Just hit O anytime and you get an Aimed Shot off.

[Xtremtech]

Does it work even if you've been targetted by your target Seraph? Or if you're under attack yourself?

Just interested as I'm only practicing with a low QL bow myself at the moment and haven't used it in PvP so far.

X

[Xtremtech]

Oh btw Seraph... did you want me to go ahead and add your suggested bows above now? Or are you still waiting on more feedback?

X

[Autocratt]

Well, I knew something was bothering me. We have assumed we would have this incredible AMS of 1000+ with this Creation Bow and I ran some numbers and the reality is that it will be decent but hardly incredible.

Bow Skill
-------------------------------------------------
Nanomage MP TL 5 Max: 751
Solitus MA TL 5 Max: 900
- vs.-
Nanomage MP TL 6 Max: 781
Solitus MA TL 6 Max: 950

(Assumes breed cap abilities, expertise, 2 imps for MP and 3 imps for MA.)

Time & Space Skill
-------------------------------------------------
Nanomage MP TL 5 Max: 988
- vs.-
Nanomage MP TL 6 Max: 1018

(Assumes 105 from imps, expertise, Mocham, Odin's)


Put the 80/20 rule for AMS and you get:

Nanomage MP TL 5 Max: 940 AMS
Solitus MA TL 5 Max: 900 AMS
- vs.-
Nanomage MP TL 6 Max: 970 AMS
Solitus MA TL 6 Max: 950 AMS

But this assumes you want to give up 250 health and 51 NCU to keep Odin's Missing Eye running for just 38 more AMS which is highly doubtful in PvP.

So in reality, Creation Bow AMS vs. MA Bow AMS is:

Nanomage MP TL 5 Max: 902 AMS
Solitus MA TL 5 Max: 900 AMS
- vs.-
Nanomage MP TL 6 Max: 932 AMS
Solitus MA TL 6 Max: 950 AMS

Conclusion
-------------------------------------------------
The PvP Creation Bows I advocate are NOT overpowered. Not in comparison to what an MA can achieve or to other alternative weapon choices. If you recall I stated a TL 5 MP can achieve 940 AMS in rifle and use an Assassin Caterwaul.

I think the Damage Calculator is flawed but I ran an Assassin's Caterwaul and Seraph's Fiery Fury through it at 100% agg/def. Rifle AMS of 940 vs. Bow AMS of 902, Init of 900 vs. 750 (TIM Scope) vs. 3500 AC. Surprise, the damage differed by just 5 pts!

Well I made my own PvP calculator for use at 0% agg/def and half damage/half crit, specials, etc. Seraph's Fiery Fury is still outclassed by a Manex, Jr Urban xbow, and X-3 and is slightly better than a Caterwaul, v3 and surprisingly a Gluegun comes just under this Bow.

[Autocratt]

Originally posted by XtremTech
Does it work even if you've been targetted by your target Seraph? Or if you're under attack yourself?

Just interested as I'm only practicing with a low QL bow myself at the moment and haven't used it in PvP so far.

X

Yep, just hit O. That is why I am intent on getting Aimed Shot into this bow and keeping the recharge rate low so Aimed Shot refreshes faster. BTW, Aimed Shot damage can easily be calculated with AMS because the min is always max normal damage and is armor piercing (ignores armor).

[Autocratt]

Originally posted by XtremTech
Oh btw Seraph... did you want me to go ahead and add your suggested bows above now? Or are you still waiting on more feedback?

X

If you have a deadline X just go ahead and submit them except make it Dodged Ranged and add a Nano Resist buff equal to the evade buffs . Otherwise I really really like to hear some comments from PvPers.

Thanks X

P.S. Anyone check to see if Bows can still be parried?

[Xtremtech]

Fine by mke Seraph take all the time you want.

I know Psi is on holiday now and probably won't be able to get access to a puter, so I'm afraid she won't be able to answer.

Remember too, there's a link back to this thread so that if people read the wishlist entry and have a point of view, they can always post here at a later date.

But I can wait just as long as you can.

X

[Xtremtech]

Seraph,

Rustot Skills Emulator gives following:

Level 200 Nanomage
Maxed TS
Maxed Bow
Maxed Abiltiies

Implants:

Shining Head Time and Space
Bright Right Hand Time and Space
Faded Eye Time and Space

Shining Right Hand Bow
Bright Left Hand Bow

Would leave you with:

935 Time and Space
765 Bow

+ 140 Mochams
+ 20 Expertise
+ 48 Odins
+ bow expertise

Would give you:

1143 Time and Space
785 Bow

Apply the 80/20 rule

(1143*0.8) + (785*0.2) = (914+157) = 1071 Attack Rating


Opifex MA

Maxed Abilities
Maxed Bow
QL200 Imps:

Shining Right Arm Bow
Bright Left Arm Bow
Faded Eye Bow

Gives 938

plus expertises:

gives 200 Opifex MA 958 Attack Rating

Solitus would be 949


Rustot could be wrong of course... but it's usually pretty reliable and I have the latest version. I know that for me, I've often got exactly the same values on my character as on the rustot. Not sure where you went wrong in your calculations.

I can see that an MP might not want to run Odins when PvPing... but still it'd be:

200 Opifex MA = 958 Attack Rating
200 Nanomage MP = 1033 Attack Rating

Solitus MA would do even worse.

X