MP WISHLIST: Nukes!

[Alpherah]

Lets face it, With all the new weapons, and NT nukes just (well.. recently) released, MQ at the high end game doesnt cut it anymore!

We have green NanoC.Init.. yet only need 500ish to cast MQ at full speed on full agg, and although the Dmg is acceptable in QL190 team missions, although could again do with a boost, it is absolutley LAUGHABLE in pvp.

Recent tests:
171 sol with rrfe:
1st Mind quake: 290 damage
2nd Mind Quake: 310 damage
3rd Mind Quake: 300 Damage
4th Mind Quake: 350 Damage (w00t lucky one heh)

This is PETHETIC! Our best Cold Dmg nuke does similar damage in pvp (lower cold ac) but without the debuff attacked, but still, a 100 nano skill debuff hardly warrents MQ to have such crappy damage. Seriously, in pvp people see my crappy Energy Dmg flood the chat and start to shout "which NT's been debuffed into low lvl nukes.."

One major reason for low damage is the fact that our nukes take 2 skills (MC/PM), both of which cannot be triple implanted, as a NT can with his/her MC, although our mochams make up for this a little, when isnt a NT running around with MC mocham?

Suggestions:
A suggestion would be a new line of Single Skill nukes, maybe doing Chem or Rad damage, for a class, whos suppost to be 50% dependent on nukes for damage (50% pets- and no, weapons dont count ) Isnt it kind of strange that we only have 2 lines of nukes? Energy and Cold..

A second suggestion would be a continuation of our original nuke lines, as stated before, GREEN NANO INIT! we should actually need to pump ip into this skill, cuz as it is, after 500-600 Nano init is reached, only reason to put it higher is to quickly cast the "uber" NSD...
All you people with high nano init.. would it be nice for a nuke that did damage? Something slower in attack, that put our init to good use?

So not to step onto a NT's shoes, i came up with the following unique example...

Bah cant think of a name
QL190
Dmg:1400-3100
Attack: MC/PM (dont know how much should be expected for each..)
Attack speed: 5.89 seconds
Recharge:3.99 seconds
Nano cost:420

Effects:
hit target health Energy ac -1400 .. -3100
modify self max health -270
modify target Melee ac -1200

Its a powerful nuke (in my opinion) but dangerous to use because of the -270hp per cast.. maybe this should be higher *shrug*
But in mas pvp, should some 1 manage to target you, or get close and start smacking you, you dont want to lower your hp more than its already being depleted.

Basically, i designed this to be something powerful, that we could use from long range, while our pets hopefully go in and try to damage the opponent in melee combat (explains the -melee ac)

anyway suggestions? comments etc

[Xtremtech]

Sounds like a nice one.

1) The melee AC reduction is a nice touch - helping the attack pet out. But to be honest I'm not sure how the FC team would take the inclusion of an AC debuff in there. It doesn't really 'fit' with the other stuff we have. But I do like the idea of us retainging a debuff since it's the big brother to MindQuake.

How about putting our other debuff in there: a damage/init debuff? There have been quite a few calls for something that does damage but is defensive against weapons in PvP - where even the nanoskill oriented players are wandering around with big guns.

2) I think it'd be better to raise the nanocost and lose the self-damage part though. MPs should in theory at least be nanomages and nanomages definitely need all the help they can get. Nano MPs are traditionally weak in HP and strong in Nano.

Also, we're talking just about instacast at 1200 NanoC-Init so a 4 second max cycle in which time we can reel off two complete MindQuakes with ease which would cost us 754 nano. Given the extra damage that this nuke should do and our nano-cost reduction buffs, creation benefits etc, the cost should really be higher (this is why MindQuake is in fact one of the most expensive nukes in the game in nanocost I think).

It's a feature of the Mind line that the nano-cost is high and if we're extending it we should keep that element (to an extent )

I'd make it:

QL190
Dmg:1400-3100
Attack: MC/PM (dont know how much should be expected for each..)
Attack speed: 5.89 seconds
Recharge:3.99 seconds
Nano cost: 720

Effects:

hit target health Energy ac -1400 .. -3100
TauntNPC Target 1082
Skill Target ProjectileDamageModifier -50
Skill Target EnergyDamageModifier -50
Skill Target MeleeDamageModifier -50
Skill Target ColdDamageModifier -50
Skill Target FireDamageModifier -50
Skill Target PoisonDamageModifier -50
Skill Target ChemicalDamageModifier -50
Skill Target RadiationDamageModifier -50
Modify Target MeleeInit. -361
Modify Target PhysicalInit. -361
Modify Target RangedInit. -361

What do you think?


I'm also interested in the idea of creating a new line - though we cannot ask for a single skill line. This is the NT's preserve and rightly so. They are the kings of the nuke and their single skill nukes enable them to be just that. What would a third line look like?

X

[Alpherah]

Thats cool, but doesnt that make our already useless init debuffs.. umm, more useless?
Well, it does kill 2 birds with one stone

ok, nano cost was 2 low, never really looked at MQ's nano cost to tell the truth.. just know it isnt, or rather doesnt seem -that- painful on my nano bar...

need sleep now, addin more stuff tomorrow..

[Toxinator]

I have suggested this in ... 7 threads now..

2 damage lines.

One debuffer with low damage.

one DD with high damage. Posibly extending the uh.. ice thingie one.

[____________Psiraven]

Nice idea, Poison, the NT's will scream bloody murder...

...sure, X and I would LOVE to include this in the wish list. Mwuahahaha!

[Xtremtech]

Heya,

It does sound like the debuff's a lot - but keep in mind: mind quake makes the Dominates pretty much useless if you look at it like that.... MindQuake debuffs all 6 nanoskills 100 - the Dominates debuff one skill by 125. Also keep in mind that with the long recharge means that you can cast only one of these in the time it would take to cast:

2 Mindquakes @ (736 - 1515) = (1472 - 3030 in theory) + 100 debuff to all nanoskills for 10 seconds

1 Mindquake @ (726 - 1515) and 1 Wrath Abatement ( -37 damage and -261 inits) for 2.5 minutes

Also, let's face it. this QL195 nuke is going to be level restricted up around >=195 anyhoo alongside the top of the line evocation.

Is the damage init debuff so heavy then?

Tell you what - since MindQuake only includes a short nanoskill debuff make the duration of the dmg/init debuff only 30 seconds.

X

[____________Psiraven]

I don't consider Dominate to be in competition with Mind Quake as far as debuffing ability goes...they stack after all.

[Xtremtech]

Good point.

How about a lower dmg/init buff in the new nuke that stacks with the long duration dmg/init line then?

QL190
Dmg:1400-3100
Attack: MC/PM (dont know how much should be expected for each..)
Attack speed: 5.89 seconds
Recharge:3.99 seconds
Nano cost: 720
duration: 30 seconds

Effects:

hit target health Energy ac -1400 .. -3100
TauntNPC Target 1082
Skill Target ProjectileDamageModifier -18
Skill Target EnergyDamageModifier -18
Skill Target MeleeDamageModifier -18
Skill Target ColdDamageModifier -18
Skill Target FireDamageModifier -18
Skill Target PoisonDamageModifier -18
Skill Target ChemicalDamageModifier -18
Skill Target RadiationDamageModifier - 18
Modify Target MeleeInit. -150
Modify Target PhysicalInit. -150
Modify Target RangedInit. -150



which together with Wrath abatement would get you: -55 dmg and -451 inits altogether?

Does that make sense mebbe?

X

[secondkenlon]

Have you done any DPS/DPN analysis on this new nuke yet?

I think that it would be well advised to include those numbers in the proposal. . .


MQ already out-nukes NT top useful nuke (IEF) for raw DPS.

(From an analysis I did when proposing a new line of doc DoTs)

NT using IEF with 800 nano init:
Minimum DPS: 288.33
DPN at minimum DPS: 4.22
Average DPS: 341.22
DPN at average DPS: 5.00
Nano-cost per second: 68.21

Meta-Physicist:
(Mind Quake, 800 nano init)
Minimum DPS: 366.17
DPN at minimum DPS: 1.95
Average DPS: 559.95
DPN at average DPS: 2.98
Nano-cost per second: 187.56

If you improve on the damage output of your nukes, they'd better be *very* nano hungry. Otherwise, the NT's will (correctly) scream bloody murder.

Just a friendly warning. I really like the idea of more nukes with secondary effects, though.

[Xtremtech]

Kenlon,

I'll have to admit I wouldn't know how. Nor do I really know what DPN and DPS are. I'd guess at Damage per Nano and Damage per second if I were pushed - but I'm sure I'd be wrong.

If you can point me to somewhere where they tell you how to do the calculations I'll do them and adjust the proposal accordingly. Or feel free to do the maths yourself.

X

Edit: Just did a search on DPN in the forum and found the post from the dev forum that you made and the one from the Dev where he quotes the figures. But that's pretty much all I could find... and other stuff edited

[Alpherah]

They wouldnt have to be VERY nano hungry, if FC just gave NT's a much improved self only version of the HE.. making them able to nuke for much much longer (yes, even I feel NT's need this..)

[edit] Man, iv been told this till my face is about to fall off from all the shouting im getting...
Although it seems like IEF is lesser to MQ in terms of damage per second, it hits harder per cast, taking longer to heal up.

Recharge of a nano really isnt a issue in mass pvp, and in my opinion, nukes should be very very powerful, yet very very slow, something that could take a guy down should he be stupid enough (or unfortunate enough) to step into range.

Seriously, how many of you guys out there that have high lvl alts actually fear MQ in mass pvp?

I for one wouldnt be droppin a load in my pants over it...
"oh no, im being hit with the supposed best DPS nano... i guess ill let my HoT heal me up then..."

id much rather see
"CRAP! thats a whole chunk of hp gone.. thank god he cant do that every 2 seconds..."

Plus, with the new NT nanos (i dont care how rare they are- they are there- they exist they DO pwn!) Isnt it fair that we get some kind of nano that enables us to keep up with the ever increasing ammounts of damage people are able to do pet hit?

[edit]
Thought of a idea for a new line of nuke... or possibly a extention to the cold ones...

Name: Infernal Fire/storm/Blizzard etc
QL200
Dmg: Equal to casters Cold AC
Attack time: 7s
Recharge time: 4s

Requirements:
Level =>190
PM=>900(might be 2 low)
MC=>900(might be 2 low)

I was thinking this could be nice, maybe a bit over powering, so i thought maybe the casters cold AC be reduced to 0 for 20 seconds, and make the nuke castable every 20 seconds as well..

As for different QL's, i was thinking that maybe the lowest one could do the same with either melee/energy/Impact AC, sinse these are the main ac's, would make it dangerous to use at higher levels.

Then use Chem/Rad/Fire for the middle ones

And finally Cold as the highest QL one.. as only very few weapons do cold damage, and would thus be the safest to use.

[Xtremtech]

Poison,

It still needs to be pretty hungry because our nanocost reduction budget is pretty high comparitively (though you have to include creations).

As is - the nuke proposed above is comparable to Rule of One pretty much in damage and speed:

Rule of One
Dmg:1375 - 3211
Attack: MC/PM
Attack speed: 6.3 seconds
Recharge:3.99 seconds
Nano cost: 475

but we've set the proposed nanocost for ours to 720. It's sizeably more.

On the NT side compare and contrast LDI which at instacast is pretty much the same speed and damage as the proposed nuke:

LDI
Dmg:1294 - 2415
Attack: MC
Attack speed: 4s
Recharge:4s
Nano cost: 308

and you'll see that the proposed 720 nanocost for the new MP nuke should be quite acceptable.

X

[Alpherah]

yet again, never looked at the nano cost for ROO doooh!
/me slaps himself for missing out important things

[edit]
Actually, high nano cost on a powerful nuke/line of nukes would -almost- give you nanomage MP's a advantage over the other breeds, Wouldnt hurt nano much, Opi/soli- it would sting a bit, not bad for staying back in mass pvp and recharging often but wouldnt be reccomended in 1v1 duels, Atrox- Ouchie... u guys got extra hp... u cant have everything

[Xtremtech]

I've added some Requirements based on the increase required between Mind Banshee and Mind Quake and given it a name - just ofr the hell of it. The proposal would be:


Asmodian's Incandescent Vengeance
QL190
Requirements:

Mat Cre: 938
Psych Mod: 864
Level >= 195
Profession: Meta-Physicist

Nano cost: 720
Attack: MC/PM
duration: 30 seconds
Attack speed: 5.89 seconds
Recharge:3.99 seconds
Range: 20 m

Nanoresist: 100
Attack Skills: MC 52, PM 48

Effects:

hit target health Energy ac -1400 .. -3100
TauntNPC Target 1882
Skill Target ProjectileDamageModifier -18
Skill Target EnergyDamageModifier -18
Skill Target MeleeDamageModifier -18
Skill Target ColdDamageModifier -18
Skill Target FireDamageModifier -18
Skill Target PoisonDamageModifier -18
Skill Target ChemicalDamageModifier -18
Skill Target RadiationDamageModifier - 18
Modify Target MeleeInit. -150
Modify Target PhysicalInit. -150
Modify Target RangedInit. -150


With the debuff effect being stackable with the Dmg/Init debuff line (Strain 187).

If everybody's agreeable, I'll add this to the wishlist.

X

{editted to add nanoresist factor and attack skills]

[Alpherah]

looks sweet

[Xtremtech]

I've added the dmg/init debuff nuke to the Wishlist (changed the name to "Odin's Mental Vengeance" so that it fitted better with the 'mind' theme).

Poison: It'd be nice if you'd break the ideas you had for a third complete line of nukes out into a separate wishlist thread. That way this thread (which is referred to in the wishlist entry) can stay focussed on extensions to present nuke lines.

I do think we should talk here about a possible extension to the Cold Line of nukes though.

If we're extending the top of the range mind line nukes we should certainly consider a new top of the line level restricted Cold Damage nuke. Probably at around level 180.

What would this one look like?

It strikes me that it would be useful to retain the high level content usefulness of the cold line (85% Nanoresist) while improving the damage somewhat. Perhaps, since the Mind line extension was focussed to an extent on a PvP envirnoment we could focus the Cold line extension on the PvM environment and balance it accordingly.

I'm thinking that we shouldn't include a debuff element - just improve the damage side somewhat, so this one should be fairly easy to put together.

Ideas? Suggestions?

X

[Alpherah]

How about a top end cold nuke a little like NT's new Res blast.. but clearly less effective.

Obviously Much(!) less damage, and maybe a small chance (20%?) to lower your hate on the mob by a set ammount?

Would be nice for these new bosses, i mean, should we land a nuke through we really dont wanna see "attacked by Ubeh Mob that owns us in one hit die haha" spammed on our screens

[Xtremtech]

Funny you should mention that.... I've done the obediency enforcer a few times now and can tell you that even in a group of high-damage weapons users and NTs, a single MindQuake with debuff will often get you agg - don't do it!. Last night I was still regularly getting agg in a huge group there and I was only using Glacial Lance as a nuke (though it does land more due to the 85% nanoresist factor). I ended up having to take out my CPU upgrade to free up more space for HP buffs because it was more than a little uncomfortable (and I died twice...).

I do like the addition of a taunt reducer as a result - and it is clearly very focussed on the PvM game too. The new Mind nuke + wrath abatement + Taunt reduction nuke would make a great PvM combo.

What do others think?

Poison, could you have a go at working out some possible stats for such a nuke? I really need to actually play this game occasionally to keep my hand int..... not take all my spare time up with the boards... Perhaps you could look at the taunt created by Wrath abatement and the new nuke and work something out based on that?

X

[Alpherah]

Aight, ill give it a try

Just one thing im not sure on, its to do with taunt effects.

Take MQ as a example, it has a taunt of 1491, and Wrath Abb has taunt of 289. If some 1 used a nano on the mob with a taunt effect of 1500, the mob would aggro him/her over me right (assuming iv only used MQ at this point).
If i was then to use Wrath Abb, upping the mobs "hate" towards me to 1780, would that result in me getting the aggro?

[edit- bad spelling]

Alright, heres a first attempt..

Wrath abb taunt = 289
New nuke taunt = 1882
Total Taunt effect = 2171

so...

Name: blah blah i suck at names!
Profession: Meta-Physicist
QL: 180
NCU: (huh, DD nanos have ncu usage Oo...)
Nanocost: 699
School: Combat
Duration: 0s
Attack time: 5.01s
Recharge time: 2.10s
Range: 20m

Defense Skills: Nano Resist 85
Attack skills: MC 52/ PM 48

Requirements:
Psycho Mod >= 760
Matter Creation >= 840
Level >= 175

Effects:
Hit Target Health Cold AC -752 .. -1418
Cast Target (Name here) 20% chance



Then, the nano it has a 20% chance to cast would be what lowers the total buillt up taunt, and would look like...

Name: Heh, crappy at doing names
Ncu: Again, why do Combat nanos have a NCU usage flag..)
Duration: 0s
Attack time: 0.01s
Recharge Time: 0.01s
Range: 0m

Defense Skills: Nano resist 0
Attack Skills: MC 52/ PM 48

Effects:
Taunt Target -1900


One of the new nukes, and a Wrath abb, followed by this (if the -taunt is successful) would result in our hate being reduced significantly, however not to 0, but it at least enables us to Nuke and debuff, Thus hopefully helping the tanks to keep aggro (by not building up so much "hate" on the mobs hate list)

[Toxinator]

Originally posted by Lordtritoch
I have suggested this in ... 7 threads now..

2 damage lines.

One debuffer with low damage.

one DD with high damage. Posibly extending the uh.. ice thingie one.