MP Wishlist: Infuses

[_____________kinbari]

Ok I'm not sure if this is how I'm supposed to go about adding something to the wishlist, but I'll post anyways...

I think the ql and reqs of the Infuse line of nano buffs should be lowered. Most MPs are able to cast these once they hit levels 105-115, but we can start using Mochams at level 120-125. In my opinion this makes the Infuse line little more than useless. In fact the only Infuses I use personally, are the ones needed to step into my Odin's and Mochams. We get Teachings at level 15-25 and Masteries at level 35-45... and thats it for another 60+ levels. I think that Infuses should be usable at around level 60-80... that way we would have something to close the gap a bit after title capping all nano skills at around level 70-80. I think part of the problem with the use of Infuses is the fact that MPs normally cap all their nano skills at 70-80... that leads to a 20 level gap in IP allocation. Infuses would be a great help to MPs in that level range as it could keep their pets orange at least. It would also be a benefit to our teams, and other classes who would need buffs.

As far as implementation... all it would require is a little tweaking of the requirements... simple. Maybe also make them available to buy in superior shop terminals.

If it's not possible to tweak infuses, then I would at least like to maybe see a new line of nano buffs... maybe a +70-75.
MP's, like it or not, are known for 3 things... pets, looking bad ass flying around with QW, and nano buffs... and going 60+ levels without getting a new nano buff seems a little ... bleh.

Once again to summarize...

Teachings:
QL's - 18-24
Adds - 25
Usable - 15-20

Masteries:
QL's - 40-50
Adds - 50
Usable - 30-40

***BIG GAP***

Infuses:
QL's - 123-136
Adds - 90
Usable - 105-115

Mokies:
QL's - 162-169
Adds - 140
Usable - 120-130

[Xtremtech]

Hey Mindfire,

It's a new process so we'll see how things go. Your post looks just fine to me.

It's clear that the bunching of buffs at around the level 110 mark with Infuses - Odins - Mochams does leave a big gap at the bottom end and brings us everything in a rush at the top end.

The biggest issue that I see with the idea of reducing infuse reqs would possibly be that it might shorten our lifetime of new things even more if we're not careful. As you know, the infuses are the big stepping stone to Odin's Missing Eye which is in turn the big stepping stone to Mochams which then pretty much get us our Top of the line nanos - with the exception of the level restricted Evocation line.

We'd have to set the requirements on infuses in such a way that they don't make the casting of Odin's happen earlier and thus bring our range of getting new stuff down even further. At what level should we be able to cast infuses then? What should the PM and BM Infuse requirements be - which are key ones for Odin's?

Or how about solving the issue by increasing the requirements on Odins? That way we'd see the lifetime extend upwards a fair bit making the gap ranges make a little more sense? I know some people have suggested removing Odins from the game entirely, which is a very strong move - but you can see their point. If we didn't have Odin's then the Mastery -> Infuse -> Mocham's requirements would be much more in line.

How about you work out some of the maths with the Skills Emulator and have a stab at suggesting the reqs on (at least) the BM and PM infuses and then draw us a picture of how it would work out in real terms for an MP?

X

[ntrox1]

If Odins is removed I won't be able to cast my Caco Demon. I am level 170. I think by level 170 I should be able to cast Caco!

[Xtremtech]

Yup Ntrox... I'm not for removing it either. But you can see the point. It's actually Odin's that makes the gaps between the buffs look so silly. If you did take Odin's out then Mocham's would be post-150 cap buffs and the spacing of the buffs would look more sensible.

Removing Odin's would be foolish to say the least - since as things stand right now, the number of people post-150 who actually need Mocham's from us goes rapidly downhill. Mocham's do need to be around the 130 level to give them a useful life at all in terms of buffing others.

My personal opinion would be that infuses should be moved down a little for the spacing to be more realistic. I'm thinking you'd probably need to place them so that a nanomage MP would have to do some work for them to reach them in the 85 - 100 cap. Somewhere around level 90 would be about right I think.

Basing off a level 95 Nanomage MP with following abilities:

Str: 60
Agi: 60
Sta: 150
Int: maxed @ 285
Sen: 150
Psy: maxed @ 280

which I reckon would be a reasonable setup. You'd have:

Sense Imp: 389
Psych Mod: 394

Treatment: 377

This would enable:

Medsuit/Biomech/+80/Exp/Boosts/station Treatment +291.

Treatment: 668

Which would allow a Ql140 Treatment RH giving +30

Treatment: 698

Which would allow QL 147 SI/PM set (Shining SI, Bright PM and faded PM + SI) giving 78 PM and 110 SI resulting in:

Sense Imp: 499
Psych Mod: 472

Add to that:

Masteries: +50
Expertise: +20
Boosts: +3

Total: 73

and we'd get:

Sense Imp: 572
Psych Mod: 545

So a reasonably hard working and top imped nanomage MP can get SI 572 and PM 545 by level 90. If we made this the target requirement for the middle of the range Infuse TS, then it's requirements would look like:

Sense Imp: 572
Psych Mod: 572

Keeping the present requirement spacings that would make:

Infuse PM: SI 597, PM 597
Infuse SI: SI 588, PM 588
Infuse MC: SI 580, PM 580
Infuse TS: SI 572, PM 572
Infuse MM: SI 557, PM 557
Infuse BM: SI 542, PM 542

What do people think of that as a proposal?

If an MP at this level added in a reasonable tower for +9 PM and +9 SI - then they'd be casting them a little earlier of course (or might have to stretch a little less on the implants.

I'm worried by the abilities a little bit. From memory they are around what I had at that level if memory serves... but if a few people who are level 90ish MPs could confirm the ability settings as realistic that'd be cool. Or do we think that an MP should have to push other abilities up as well in order to reach their infuses at around this level?

X

[zophee]

What would you think of a smaller Version of odin's that doesn't stack with odin's itself, so we would be able to cast infuse earlier but it would not be able to step ahead to get mochams at a level around 90 ?

[Xtremtech]

Oh... that's an interesting idea DarkZone and would be much easier to implement too.

What sort of buff increases were you thinking of? Where would you pitch the "Odin's Missing Nostril" buff? ... in terms of QL and requirements?

We'd have to be careful to make it so that the new odin... say +10 to all nanoskills and Int and Psy and -75 HP - wouldn't simply overpower the lower level MPs too much more....

Take the above mentioned level 90 Nanomage MP with QL 147 imps. We put Shining Psych Mod in and Faded Sense Imp and add a Faded BioMet Waist and Bright BioMet Chest to the picture and we'd have:

Psych Mod: 502
Sense Imp: 467
BioMet: 508

Add in the Masteries and Expertises and we get:

Psych Mod: 572
Sense Imp: 537
BioMet: 578

If we multiply the stats for Odin by 0.73 we'd get:

BioMet: 573
PsychMod: 521

And the nanoskill/Int/Psy buff would be 30.

Then casting the mini-Odin would get you to:

Sense Imp: 503
Psych Mod: 538

And stacking Masteries and Expertise would reach:

Sense Imp: 573
Psych Mod: 608

Which would just make it possible to cast your first Infuses. Add in a few more PM and SI points between 90 and 100 (4 each I think) and a few more levels worth and you'd be casting them nice and early.

Yup that'd work too.

I rather like this suggestion. What do the rest of you think?

X

[Xtremtech]

Just a quick addition: the new Mini Odins should probably be level restricted to level 90. We have to face the fact that every new nano in the game is going to have a level restriction and should probably try to suggest a good one when we're working these wishlist pieces out.

X

[Xtremtech]

It occurs to me too that this would also have a beneficial effect on the MP armour class ratings while using MP standard breed intended Int/Psy armour.

It's widely accepted that armour class above 3000 gives considerably less protection per point than below 3000. Some believe that AC above 3000 has no effect.

By the time we reach a level when we can cast odins our armour class is already 3000+ - so the benefit of Odins in terms of aiding us into our MP standard breed intended armour is relatively small.

By adding a mini-Odin at level 90 - we'd improve the general protection of Int/Psy armour wearing MPs in line with the many other types of armour which we can already equip at that level using external buffs (in particular Str/Sta armour).

This wouldn't then be unbalancing - but would make the disadvantages of choosing nanomage for the MP a little less.

What does everybody else think about the mini-Odin idea?

X

[Wizz]

Ten thumbs up on the lower version of Odin's. I'm at work as usual for posting so I can't really check my stats but will send them to you.

I think that Intelligence and Psychic buffs would be of great help. Additionally to help us MPs cast Infuses at a more reasonnable level, they'd also be invaluable for everyone to help them cast their nanos and get into better armors (namely Biomech and Nano armors).

Now our neighbors known for the pitch of their voice have some very legitimate issues, and they still did not get their love patch. Having them get (preferably) the Intelligence part of such a buff would have two effects: prevent trolls from our friends to come around say idiocies, and prevent anyone from howling for a nerf on MPs.

As a side effect it would reinforce teaming up, which is one of the goals researched by FC. Anyway although my nukes don't do as much damage, collaborating with someone that lands a good level HE on you is always nice. If in addition to HE they could make you cast Infuses, even better. Having them enable you cast Infuses will in turn enable you to land Infuse MC on them and reach better nukes. Great, right?

[Xtremtech]

Unless anybody is dead set against the mini-Odin idea suggested above, I'm going to go ahead and add it to the wishlist.

X

[Toxinator]

I use infuses more then i do mochams so...

I use Infuse:

SI BM PM

and Mocham:

MC TS

Always have.

[Xtremtech]

So does that mean you're for the idea or against it?

It is a common subject on the boards that the break between mastery and infuse is too long.

Infuses still have their uses due to NCU size all the way to 200 I reckon. But that gap between masteries is very short and the rush from infuse -> odins -> Mochams is very short.

X

[Silinary]

I'm actually sitting sorta in that area as a nanomage MP lvl 84. I was wondering myself about the buffs cause I don't do much research except at home heh. Originally I didn't know about infuses and jsut thought there were teachings ,mastery's, and then mochans. As I've since learned I was wondering why the huge gap between mastery and infuses, and the near no gap between infuses and mochies.

At lvl 84 I've title capped my BM,TS, and MC. PM and SI have been lacking somewhat due to a lack of really needing them (aside from the recent boost to cast advanced symbol negotiation). A mini-Odin's with a lvl minimum of 90 would fit well with upgrading the pets steadily. I dont' look forward to using the same pet I have now at 84, as the one I use at 99.

So in recap, I fully support a mini-odin.

[_____________kinbari]

yeah a mini-OME would be a good solution as well... just something to shoot for while were stuck in that 20 level gap where all of our nano skills are capped and theres nothing to look forward to. (besides hitting level 100)

but i dont really think lowering infuses would cause you to get OME or mokies much sooner... i know i had maxed out skills and ql 180 imps in and i still needed a pillow and nelebs just to use OME at level 119... and there were still 2 mokies i couldnt even use till i hit 121. yeah that is kinda early i guess but the only way to do it any faster would be to have some kind of "uber" items like a VT egg. but then again if youre a lvl 100 MP with a virral egg then you dont really need to worry too much about getting anything else cuz your main/alt is the real workhorse. =p

i definately do think that getting rid of OME alltogether is a BAD BAD BAD idea... +40 in nano skills might not seem like alot compared to mokies, but the +40 to int/psy is sometimes a blessing. especially when the only armor a nanomage can get a higher level of requires the only 2 skills in the game that have only 1 buff besides the general boost.
but still the +40 you get from OME would only make the actual level you get access to mokies go up from 120 to about 130 (5 point increase per level for a nanomage is only an extra 8 levels. lets play it safe and tack on an extra 2 levels of skill increase to factor in trickle down) so that still wouldnt neccesarily "extend" the life of an MP.

so maybe if the mini-OME gave say a +20... that would help... we could get some decent nano/biomech armor on and the extra nano skills would help keep a slightly redder pet... and also allow infuses to be used 4-5 levels sooner... at lvl 105 or so.

perhaps if the reqs of infuses were just lowered by 60-70 and the ql range to 95-105 or something. if they were reduced any less it wouldnt have any effect because capped nano skills cant be raised and wed still have to wait an extra 5 levels after hitting 100 just to allocate enough IP to use it. also maybe increase the reqs of OME by maybe 25... just so you wouldnt be able to use mini-OME as a stepping stone and get to the mokies 5 levels sooner.

this way the higher level nanos such as OME and Mochams wont be able to be used too soon (if you dont consider the level they are used at now "too soon")... and the level 70-90 MPs would have something to look forward too as well.

just some thoughts tho... im sure theres something im missing but am too tired to see right now.

[Xtremtech]

We could maybe arrange it so that the mini-Odin wasn't replaced by the big-OME and didn't stack with it. That is: if you have mini-Odins running you can't cast big-Odin.

In this way - although you could use mini-Odin's to get the infuses, you wouldn't be able to use it to get the big-Odin and so you wouldn't bring forward the mocham's level. The mochams level would stay where it was and we'd just get the infuses a little earlier.

How's that?

Oh and the mini-Odin should have a -185 to max health too to bring it into line with it's big brother.

X

[ntrox1]

I'm a bit braindead today, so I will take those stats at face value, and hope you have been accurate X

Whilst I personally enjoyed the PM/Si imp change, Inf, OME, Moch race, I am not sure that everyon else would. If you're not a twink with a bucketload of help handed to you, you would find this very frustrating!

So, provided this all adds up and stretches the buffs out, and provided there is a 90 cap on the nano, I will be in favour of it. Hell, Ntrox would probably prefer to use mini-OME instead of the full one!

[Sallust]

I don't know the reqs for Odin's off-hand, but I don't think they're so low that lowering the reqs on Infuses would allow you to power level into them. I think lowering the reqs on infuses would do just fine.

Make sure they don't just add a new line instead and leave Infuses in, that would be the normal FC thing.

[Xtremtech]

Sallust,

FC certainly does prefer to add new nanos rather than change existing ones. It's understandable as it means that every existing player doesn't get affected in their present game and also it means less likelihood of breaking something that works at present.

In addition of course, FC is wanting all new nanos to have level requirements and if some professions get changes to existing nanos to improve them - without getting the level requirements that go with them - there'd be hell to pay. Changing the existing nanos and adding a level requirement would no doubt annoy the hell out of all those people who could cast the nano at present and then suddenly can't because of a level req.

Whether you agree with the reasoning or not - new nanos are far more likely to be accepted by the design team at this time than changes to existing ones. That's part of the reason why I think the mini-Odin would stand the best chance of success.

X

[ntrox1]

Hmm.. Doesn't having a mini-OME to step to infuses cause issues where you can then cast infuse earlier, step into OME (cancel mini-OME first) then you are closer still to Mochams. I expect that with twinking and NCU swapping you could get to mochams sooner.

Edit: I worked it out, yr still 100 points short of mochams and OME, so there is still some juicy levelling to be done

[Xtremtech]

Yup there's still some levelling to be done and by making it so that you can't be running little-Odin in order to cast big-Odin the mochams level should stay the same all in all.

We could maybe arrange it so that the mini-Odin wasn't replaced by the big-OME and didn't stack with it. That is: if you have mini-Odins running you can't cast big-Odin.

X