Demon Vs Enmity

[____________Sabotage]

Hi guys,

Been doing some recent research with the demon line of pets and trascendent enmity pet, it seems to be generally accepted that the demon hits for more per hit but has a far slower rate of attack, thus hitting for less damage over time and holding agg worse than the tran enmity, this does appear to be the case at first glance but I've been looking a bit closer at exactly what goes on here, I only have access to Lemur and Demon, not Cacodemon so i'm not sure if it applies more or less so for the Cacodemon but what I did find was very interesting.

I'm not sure if there is an attackspeed cap in this game, but I think there is, a tran enmity buffed with chant of effortless strikes and evocation of maddening wrath (always have instill running too but I think that has no effect on attackspeed), is basically indistinguishable as far as I can tell from a tran enmity buffed with high chant of effortless strikes and same evo, tentative conclusion, the tran enmity pet has a very high base attack speed and the huge 390 init boost and 83 aggdef boost does little to speed it's attack any further, agg would still cycle, albeit only briefly in the typical fashion, between myself, my healpet, and the enmity itself.

I tried the same trick on the Lemur to begin with and noticed agg did not cycle after perhaps the first time as long as the evocation was kept up, even if I chain nuked mindquake and debuffs Lemur reliably kept agg with high chant of effortless strikes and the same evo, that I can say for definite, what I may or may not have been imagining with Lemur was that it appeared that it was attacking just a touch slower than your typicall chanted up transcendent enmity, still not as fast, even with the highest available chant running, but often, perhaps every three hits or so I'd see it double hit as the transcendent enmity usually does.

I tried the same trick one more time this time on my newly acquired Demon pet, and it definitely had a massive leap in attacksped, perhaps every off hit was a double hit for massive dmg and when that demon started attacking, he was stealing agg from L140 enfs and L200 slayerdroids.

I've hit titlecap for Arch Deacon so I won't be having access to the Cacodemon for some time, but if it follows the path that I observed between Lemur and Demon, maybe it would even match transcendent enmities attack speed? at least with some of the lesser used, higher level evocations on it as well?

Interesting.

Cheers
Etherael.

[ntrox1]

Just a quick note. Aggro is fubar, so MQ'ing will NOT draw aggro. Aggro is, AFAIK, damage based only now. In other words your pet is NOT holding aggro, its just that you are not damaging as much as the pet.

Oh, and no, the Caco will not hit as fast as a TE evenfully evo'd with the QL177 evo. I recently started to use TE in missions instead of caco (solo missions) and was surprised at the damage output with the QL177 evo on the TE. Much better than the caco!

[____________Sabotage]

That can't be entirely true, my debuffs can draw agg away from lower level players quite easily, and no dmg at all on them...

Also, demon with high chant of es and evo pulling agg from enfs at 140? maybe if they were severely gimped they couldn't out dmg it but I don't think so... and definitely not a 200 SD.

[ntrox1]

Go post in the Enforcer forum and ask how their taunts are working. That will give you the clarification. An enf cannot control aggro any more, neither can we. Scares still work though.

[Stunt]

Originally posted by Ntrox, Trox MP
Just a quick note. Aggro is fubar, so MQ'ing will NOT draw aggro.

I have to disagree on that Ntrox. I use MQ all the time to draw aggro and save the doc/tank. It's almost a guarunteed aggro snatcher.

[ntrox1]

Well unless they fixed this very recently, ie in the last 3 days, its still broken. They broke it last patch. Do a search for other threads on this, or post in the enforcer forum if you don't believe me, which you don't.

[Cozy]

Recently I'm token farming so I have time to fool around. Using bats at full agg. I've noticed two things mainly. Nanos land a lot more on greens then they've used to and taunts seem to have been modified so that they include random factor. I can draw aggro with simple debuff or not draw it with CoC. TE I use is seldom evoced so weapon/nukes combined do roughly same damage as pet.

[Xtremtech]

Trans Enmity Vs Demon types.

Both types of attack pet use weapons with exactly the same basic stats. Both have the same damage range at the same QL and the same speed. They are precisely alike. The main difference between the two weapons is that meatball pets have a range of 10 metres on their weapons whereas that Demon types have a range of 2 metres on their weapons. On the whole though, this is just to account for the bouncing attack motion of the meatballs. Both move to within around 3 metres range in order to hit.

Any attack pet uses a QL version of this basic weapon that is the same as the level of the pet. So the level 179 Trans Enmity uses the QL 179 Metapet Fist Weapon doing 194-403 (223) - Melee AC @ 2.35/2.35. And the level 200 demon uses the QL200 Demon Fist Weapon for 215-449 (248) - Melee AC @ 2.35/2.35.

The MP attack pet weapons are subject to the same basic combat rules as for players. The maximum speed achievable with a weapon is 1.0/1.0. Having inits higher than required for this speed will not affect the speed of the weapon.

The Chant line is the only buff that directly affects the speed of hit of the pets. It does this both via the Init buff and also via the Agg/Deff buff. Evocations do not affect speed of hit. In order for the 2.35/2.35 weapons of both pets to hit at 1.0/1.0, they would need a pure init buff of +810 at 87.5 agg/def. For each 12.5 aggdef beyond that you can remove 150 from the inits required for 1.0/1.0 speed. Feel free to do the maths on this - but both the meatball and the demon pets will hit at 1.0/1.0 speed at the same time and with the same buff - since they both hit with the same base speed. The chant to which you refer which I think would be the Chant of Frenzied Blows has an init buff of +360 and an agg/def buff of 73. Assuming a 50% base agg/def, this takes the inits of the pets to +360 and the agg/def to 123. This should be just enough to make the pet weapons hit at nearly 1.0/1.0 speed.

The Meatball type pets dual-wield their weapon though and hit with both left and right fist. Detailed testing suggests that the meatball pets are subject to the same restrictions on dual wielding that affect players, resulting in an average 1.35 times the damage from wielding two weapons of the same QL - though the precise mechanics of the meatballs dual-wields are not known at this time - the damage seems to be flushed to the chat server in one go - so the dual hits will always appear to happen at the same time - but they will appear to happen at wider spacing than 1.0/1.0 as a result of the dual wield.

So overall, the Demon type pets hit at the same speed as the Enmity type pets - but the enmity pets dual wield and thus hit for more hits in a given time than the Demon type pets. This will not be exactly twice as much as the demon pets, but given the relatively small difference in attack rating of the two types of pets (Cacodemon 585 AR, Trans Enmity 563 AR) the Trans Enmity will hit for more damage over a given time than the Demon - all things being equal.

X

[____________Sabotage]

XtremTech you rule, this is exactly what I wanted, some good hard math on the whole affair, but your responses raise even a few more questions, on a hunch I did a search on AG for "Meta"

Equip_MetapetCombatLeftfist 1
Equip_MetapetCombatRightfist 1
Equip_MetaPetDemonWpn 1
Equip_MetapetHealingLeftfist 1
Equip_MetapetHealingRightfist 1
MetapetCombatLeftfist_001 1
MetapetCombatLeftfist_400 400
MetapetCombatRightfist_001 1
MetapetCombatRightfist_400 400
MetaPetDemonWpn_001 1
MetaPetDemonWpn_400

and got 11 hits of great interest, now the ones you linked to as being the "demon pet" and the "enmity pet" are both _001 versions of the items interpolated for QL200 (cacodemon) and QL179 (transcendent enmity) respectively, I have a few questions with relation to that I'm hoping you can help me out with.

_001
_400

What does this mean? The 400 stats are vastly superior to the 001 stats, how do we get the pets to use the 400 versions, is that even possible? if not, why are they there?

base attack speeds for both weapons at those QL's are exactly the same but you referred to an assumed default agg level of 50% and you also quoted demon and enmity AR's (where did you find this info and how sure are you about that default agg level?)
Also, wouldn't the individual phsyical initiative levels of the actual creature wielding the metaweapons influence the attackspeed of them? is it possible to find this info out for demons and tran enmity? as well as that default agg level you talked about? I don't really perfectly understand which stats pets possess nor how it affects their performance, any help here would be great.

You also said ;

The chant to which you refer which I think would be the Chant of Frenzied Blows has an init buff of +360 and an agg/def buff of 73. Assuming a 50% base agg/def, this takes the inits of the pets to +360 and the agg/def to 123. This should be just enough to make the pet weapons hit at nearly 1.0/1.0 speed.


There are three higher chants than this, and in your initial statement you said you're need a pure init of +810 at 87.5 aggdef to achieve the attackspeed cap, you got the numbers for chant of frenzied blows correct, but I'm not entirely certain how you came to the conclusion that the lowest chant available would make any of the demons as well as trans enmity hit at it's attackspeed cap. If that's actually true, why are there three higher attackspeed chants at all?

Did FC actually intend for the tran enmity to be more useful than the demon pets? or did they intend it to be situational i.e. need a low dmg tank cast a demon, need a whiring blade of destruction that will go down fast cast enmity..

Or was it just not ever really considered?

[Xtremtech]

Yup the demon type is meant as a slightly lower damage high HP version for tanking.

The QLs go up to 400 presumably as future proofing in the original design. As I said the pets only equip the QL equivalent to their Level.

Chants agg/def also affects critting etc, so the agg/def in and of itself has a purpose. There may have been some future proofing included in that buff line too. Also notice that the init buffs help to counter and init debuff - so there is a function there as well.

X