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Thread: Pet Warp command and PvP balance issues?

  1. #1

    Pet Warp command and PvP balance issues?

    Hi All,

    I'm one of the MP's representatives on the Professionals team. The MP boards (along with the crat and engineer boards) have been full of one key issue for many months now: Pet pathing. We've had a few months and several patches where the Dev team have stated that their #1 priority is pet pathing but despite a few minor improvements in some patches, the issue is still very much with us.

    One of the key requests that comes from the boards with regularity is that pet owners should get a /pet warp command that brings their pets to them. The feeling is that pet pathing will never really be "fixed" and certainly not in the near future. As a result a pet owner should be able to get their pet next to them and ready for action using a /pet warp command.

    In the past, people have voiced a worry that such a /pet warp feature might be unbalancing in PvP or that it might be open to exploit in certain PvP situations. I've also heard from several people that it wouldn't be unbalancing at all. Given the conflict of views I'm looking for information and views from the PvP community in general and from non-MPs in particular - so that I can better understand the difficulties and impact of such a command upon the PvP game (if any ).

    So I thought I might ask for the opinions of the PvP gurus. The question to you then is:
    • If pet owners had a command that allowed them to manually bring their pet to them in order to work around the problems of pet pathing, would this disturb PvP play? If so, what restrictions or limits do you think might be suitable to remove those objections?


    I look forward to your responses.

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  2. #2

    Re: /pet warp in PvP

    The only circumstance I can think of in PvP is when, lets say, your pet gets rooted, and Eng/Crat/Mp uses the /pet warp. As long as you can't warp while rooted or snared, should be fine for PvP.
    Last edited by Mundane; Dec 6th, 2002 at 22:30:44.

  3. #3
    It's so nice to see you back in the forums, X Here's what comes immediately to mind.

    First, the possibility of the pet user intentionally getting his pet stuck somewhere so as to seem more vulnerable to potential adversaries. I think this is why they made swimsuits into social armor. People wearing swimsuits over armor made them seem more vulnerable than they actually were.

    Second, the possibility that, heaven forbid, somebody actually tried to attack the pet instead of the master. If the master has moved away from the fight, he can simply remove the pet from the possibility of getting killed by doing /pet warp.

    Third, perhaps other players are supposed to be able to exploit poor pet pathing in PvP I truly hope that's not the case, but it might be. Maybe one of the disadvantages of a pet is supposed to be that it could run off after a fixer and then get stuck. Well, fixers have roots. Make it an enf then.

    Fourth, maybe if the pet is running around chasing a fast char, and that fast char then zooms back to attack you, then perhaps that fast char is supposed to get a couple shots in before your pet returns. This would only seem to be an issue against a very fast prof that doesn't have roots or against a prof with snares. It might also be an issue if the master is using the pet as long range artillery - just send the pet off to attack and then walk over to the other side of a hill. Actually, imagine sending your attack pet off in this manner and put your heal pet on it. Then, should you be attacked, have a single macro that warps back both pets and then puts the heal pet on yourself. Being able to use a pet as artillery is an advantage that has the inherent disadvantage that the pet is not near should you need it. The /warp would remove that disadvantage.

    Maybe someone else can come up with more ideas. Personally, I could live with the second and third possibilities if it would get 3 more profs in the PvP area. For the first one, I think it could be addressed by putting the pet user's current pet in his info window. Maybe have a little clickable icon like with mission info. Click on the pet icon and see the info window on the pet. As for the fourth, if this is in fact an issue, then perhaps the warp could be implemented as a nano so that the cost to you (in time and nano) would be the trade off for the warp. Or perhaps just make the pet idle for a few sec after warping to you.

    In summary, the only balance issue I see might be that fourth item. But I can see FunCom viewing the first item as an exploit.

    [edit] removed a typo
    Last edited by Hypos; Dec 6th, 2002 at 23:49:11.
    Heals - they're not just for tradeskills anymore
    Hypos omni doc RK2 <-- stupid enough to have thought that going past level 150 would help her be a better doc
    Phlair omni mp RK2 solo char
    Nerfbat omni enf RK2 awarded the hammer of braveness
    Shadow Ops

  4. #4

    Thumbs up

    Good points Hypos. Although, I think as far as the treachery by "pretending" to be without a pet, or making it seem as if your pet is "stuck" should only make the attacker beware. That's more like player cunning, rather than PvP unbalancing. For points 2-4, I think that most people that would PvP as a pet class, be it in the arenas or in 25% zones, would know not to let their pet go running after it's attacker. Or, for the most part, that's what I did, and what the few PvP'ing Engy's/Crat's/Mp's do now. But, again, should they decide to let their pet wander, as in your example with a fast char, and they get attacked from the same player, well, I think it fair enough to bring the pet back. The pet's master should be able to do such. At lower levels, when the attacking pet is the main focus of these classes, and in some cases their only weapon, I think they should be able to call it from wherever it may be. Any of said classes aren't very proficient with any type of weapon aside from pistols,(and thats not saying too much either, even if pistols WERE decent weapons) and rely too heavily on their bots/meatballs/droids for power.

    I think that's the point of /pet warp. There's gonna be some kind of whining done, blah blah. PvM vs. PvP. If a bot is stuck behind a table, I think you should be able to call it to you anywhere in the same zone, as long as it isn't rooted or snared. In PvP, why not be able to do the same. I think the masters should have that kind of link with their pets.

  5. #5
    Nice to be back Hypos!

    Thanks all for the feedback so far.

    These issues are in fact largely the ones that are brought up in discussions elsewhere too:

    1) Rooted/Snared Pets should not be warpable

    2) Pets engaged in combat should not be warpable

    3) The "Innocent MP" issue... which many players don't see as an issue but think FC might....


    The most difficult one for the Pet owning community is probably the second one above. In missions and even outdoors pets will often get stuck just after being ordered to attack - but never reach their target or they will be behind you as you run into a room get stuck on the door and you order attack before realising they were stuck.

    In addition, when in teams, pets will mostly respond to any attack or aggro on a team member by defending the team and going into combat mode - even if the pet is actually stuck several rooms away or behind a wall (or a stick on the ground ).

    The result then is that the pet is stuck in combat mode... but not doing anything.

    Maybe we could request that in non-PvP zones the pet warp worked even when the pet was in combat mode but that in PvP zones the pet would no longer warp when in combat mode. How would that sound?

    In PvP zones, the attack pet would be in combat mode if it were chasing the fast player, so the warp would then no longer function (covering the fourth issue you mention Hypos).

    The "Innocent MP" issue might easily be solved by making a pet not warpable if it is in wait mode (using /pet wait). Pets now always zone with their owners, so leaving them in another zone wouldn't be an option and die quickly if left behind by a mishap.

    Pets with a root/snare nano should not be warpable. This could be achieved with a check for hostile nanos I'd imagine. Not a problem at all.

    Are there any other thoughts from the PvP gurus? Or reactions to the above suggestions?

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  6. #6
    I think that all sounds good X. But, do you think they'd allow warping in Non-PvP zones while not being able to warp in lesser suppression fields? I think if that were the case, a lot of the things in this game would have been left alone in PvM. I can't recall them ever making a change because of PvP without it also affecting those who don't.

  7. #7
    I suggest that the warping isn't instantaneous. The pet should have to move to the owner at its normal rate of speed but be able to pass through any object. That will allow pet owners to get around pathing issues but will avoid some of the potential exploits listed in this thread. Pets that are far away from their owners will still have to travel back to them and if they take a shortcut but going through an obstacle, they will be slowed down to compensate.

  8. #8
    Beer, it occurs to me now that the PvP Vs PvM zone thing might get confusing when the pet was in an area that was PvP and the owner in an area that was PvM... though being stuck in one and the owner in the other would be unusual....

    I quite liked Crin's idea of it taking the amount of time to get to you as it would when travelling. Too late to think of possible impacts though as it's 3 am and I've had enough for one day.... running missions tonight was like sprinting through treacle...

    See you tomorrow guys

    X
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  9. #9
    Sounds good to me if they could implement this,, no pet warping while in combat, and no pet warping while rooted,, this makes sense,, A viable step would also be to have the pet warp command work only in team missions if the above suggestions are not possible which would at least make pet profs worth more to a team doing xp missions.
    Muerl lvl 164 mp R-2

  10. #10
    pet warping only out of combat is a great solution. if they couldtn get that into a macro skript they could easily add an item that does it. we already know items such as treatment and recharger kits cant be used in combat so just build upon that and everything would be fine.

  11. #11
    Regarding XtremTech's point: It is often true that a pet receives an attack order but never makes it to the target. Perhaps the devs could make the /pet warp only useable if pet isn't in combat and isn't rooted. To add to that, if they pet receives an attack command and never gets to it's target, perhaps they could add a timeout function. If the pet doesn't reach the target in say 60 seconds it goes back to follow behind mode or something. I'm not a programmer so i'm not sure how hard this would be to implement though.
    Bettiepaige level 202 MP
    Sexxynurse level 59 Engineer
    www.badgerbadgerbadger.com
    My armor setup

  12. #12
    Originally posted by XtremTech
    2) Pets engaged in combat should not be warpable

    Woah there, definitely have to point out some problems with this one:

    A pet that is more than 5 feet away from it's target will, when commanded to attack, go into the agressive stance, technically be in combat, but not move. It will face it's target as if looking over some invisible wall that it can't get by at all.

    Second, in any large fight with multiple targets, (most notable being tower battles) the pet does not heed the /pet behind command. Once you send your attack pet at a tower, it's there for good.

    Third, have you ever been a clan MP fighting around the wompas in 2ho? The pet gets aggrod by all of the Omni Pol X-5s or whatever they are and does his 'invisible wall so i'm gonna stand here' routine. You can very rarely command him to move, and 99% of the time I have to terminate him to get a working attack pet.

    In all three of these conditions I wouldn't be able to warp my pet to me? That sure wouldn't solve anything, as it's these three conditions above all that need fixing in regards to pvp and pet pathing.
    <Cheeze|Work> i told iwi to start her own guild
    <Cheeze|Work> "downward spiral"
    <Cheeze|Work> instead of "uprising"

  13. #13
    Meurgen,

    Read the whole post mate! That was the point....

    I listed the three big issues that need to be solved and then went on to explain that in many situations an MP does in fact need to warp a pet that is in combat mode (such as the one you mentioned) etc...

    I also suggested possible solutions to the three issues - though I cannot say that any of them are necessarily satisfactory. That's why we have the discussion: to work out good solutions.

    Now if you had some ideas as to how the issue could be solved.... that would be helpful. Clearly, people do feel that manually warping a pet to yourself even when it's in combat mode could cause issues in the PvP arena. The reason is that a manual warp command might be used in some situations by a player when the pet wasn't stuck - but instead was just a long way away or out of position. Then the manual /pet warp might offer MPs an unfair advantage.

    How would you solve their issues while retaining the ability to manage situations such as the one you describe?

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Dec 7th, 2002 at 21:56:21.
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  14. #14
    Originally posted by Hypos
    Third, perhaps other players are supposed to be able to exploit poor pet pathing in PvP I truly hope that's not the case, but it might be. Maybe one of the disadvantages of a pet is supposed to be that it could run off after a fixer and then get stuck. Well, fixers have roots. Make it an enf then.
    Enfs just scare the pets away..

    Fourth, maybe if the pet is running around chasing a fast char, and that fast char then zooms back to attack you, then perhaps that fast char is supposed to get a couple shots in before your pet returns. This would only seem to be an issue against a very fast prof that doesn't have roots or against a prof with snares. It might also be an issue if the master is using the pet as long range artillery - just send the pet off to attack and then walk over to the other side of a hill. Actually, imagine sending your attack pet off in this manner and put your heal pet on it. Then, should you be attacked, have a single macro that warps back both pets and then puts the heal pet on yourself. Being able to use a pet as artillery is an advantage that has the inherent disadvantage that the pet is not near should you need it. The /warp would remove that disadvantage.
    Warping has to be instantaneous for the command to have any use. Just slap your "/pet warp" macro, and the pet is by your side, ready to attack next target.

    The obvious solution, if this is considered a problem, is nerfing pet range. Make the pet unable to move further than X units away from it's master.

    If FC actually consider such a limitation neccessary.. Pets already have plenty of weaknesses to various forms of crowd-control. Root, calm, snare and scare lines mess them up pretty bad.. Actually, it could be useful for the pet-users; you'll never have to worry about loosing your pets.


    /Buurn

    Edit: changed "behind" to "warp".
    Last edited by Shadowstalker; Dec 8th, 2002 at 16:58:23.

  15. #15
    Originally posted by XtremTech
    Meurgen,

    Read the whole post mate! That was the point....

    I listed the three big issues that need to be solved and then went on to explain that in many situations an MP does in fact need to warp a pet that is in combat mode (such as the one you mentioned) etc...

    I also suggested possible solutions to the three issues - though I cannot say that any of them are necessarily satisfactory. That's why we have the discussion: to work out good solutions.

    Now if you had some ideas as to how the issue could be solved.... that would be helpful. Clearly, people do feel that manually warping a pet to yourself even when it's in combat mode could cause issues in the PvP arena. The reason is that a manual warp command might be used in some situations by a player when the pet wasn't stuck - but instead was just a long way away or out of position. Then the manual /pet warp might offer MPs an unfair advantage.

    How would you solve their issues while retaining the ability to manage situations such as the one you describe?

    X
    But it's so long! D:

    K I'll try and respond to this post by reading half of it too.

    I don't really see any issues here that are 'serious' yet. I fail to see how having pets with us would be an 'unfair advantage'. If that's the case, then we shouldn't be able to recast them while in combat mode either (better shut my trap or FC will impliment this... :x).

    I can imagine that there would be possible exploits out there involving this, and people will most likely find and exploit them before they're fixed, but so far I haven't seen or heard anyone mention anything that I would consider an 'unfair advantage' or even close to an exploit.
    <Cheeze|Work> i told iwi to start her own guild
    <Cheeze|Work> "downward spiral"
    <Cheeze|Work> instead of "uprising"

  16. #16
    I dont think the "innocent MP/crat/engy" is an issue. Mainly since these classes can have no active pet, making them seem defenseless, but with a prepared shell in their inventory. As soon as someone tabs you, click on shell, macro attack, and a nice suprise is on.

    So I dont think this can be an exploitable issue when warping pets...

  17. #17

    on recent changes

    FC recently implemented a change that the attack pet will stop attacking when its owner is out of range. It would be a much better change IMO if the pet automatically warped if it got a certain distance away from its master instead.

    The hate list needs to clear when it auto-warps in such cases as well. I think thats probably the problem with why they don't warp it as frequently maybe.

    Maybe put a 40m auto-warping feature on? Everyone else has their ranges hard capped at 40m, why shouldn't we? It would also be fair though if we didn't lose our ability to attack because the target was beyond 40 meters.

    I would hope that would be fair for everyone.
    Clan Elder of The Pilgrims

  18. #18
    OK,

    We had a Meta-Con* last night in which both Notum Wars and PvP in general were discussed. There were a few things that came up regarding range and a few issues we had that might be relevant here:

    • 1) Pets at very long range: During NW style/Mass PvP, attack pets are sometimes used at very long range. This isn't always because the pet has been commanded to do this. In NW for example, once a pet has been told to attack a player it may take aggro from a tower or another player. The pet will quite often switch targets without being commanded usually ending up attacking a tower.

      The only ways for a pet owner to retrieve that pet are:

      .....(a) run close enough to the pet to command it. This means run into the enemy lines which pretty much = death for most pet owners

      .....(b) terminate all pets for an MP (including heal pet) and recast them. This means someone somewhere lost a heal because /pet "petname" terminate doesn't work at very long range.

      Essentially then: for all pet owners, once a pet is attacking in NW it's absolutely lost to us and is probably already too far away for us to control its target - making it considerably less than effective. It would be comparable to choosing your first target with your gun and not being allowed to choose the next targets - the gun would just decide who to shoot and where.

      In NW, given the tower's long range the tower usually ends up with the attention of the pet which means the pet is basically lost.

      - For MPs there's an added issue that the only way to terminate at this range is using /pet terminate which will kill heal/mez pet too which could lead to their/somebody's death due to the heal disappearing.

      - For Engineers, termination can cause issues as they may need a wrangle to get the same pet QL up again

      - For Crats the same may apply as for engineers

      2) Pets stuck in Combat Mode outdoors: People are still seeing attack pets get stuck in combat mode on trees (towers - lol), logs on the ground and hills etc while outdoors. This can be in or near enemy lines too. The pet is then not actually hitting anything - it just stands there looking mean and doing nothing.

      Same as above goes for getting pets out of this situation.

      3) Roots/Snares: these tools essentially make our pets useless and hold them outside our command range. While we do have root breaker nanos for the pets (if we're in range) - the root caster will have gone on the pets' hatelist and he'll be off again out of range of commands to attack something we didn't necessarily want it to.

    All in all then, this points to agreeing with Meurgen that allowing /pet warp in PvP while in combat mode should certainly not be seen as unbalancing in PvP. In fact it might well be seen as a fix to a mass PvP range issues for pet owners.

    Within command range - as Buurn points out - we can essentially get the pet back to us quickly enogh using /pet behind so adding /pet warp would only gain us a few seconds really and certainly shouldn't be seen as being massively unbalancing.

    The out of range issue will still apply unless the /pet warp also wipes the pet's hatelist. We could warp the pet to us but then it would be back off to attack the tower anyway out of our control. As a result the /pet warp should wipe the hatelist as Sallust recommends. This would also mean that if the owner used /pet warp when the pet was within command range, he'd have to take a little extra time to retarget and command the pet to attack again which would balance out the situation a little more in this close range situation too.

    I'm going to suggest then that the following would be an acceptable solution:
    • 1) /pet warp should bring the pet to the owners side from anywhere on a playfield - even when the pet is in combat mode

      2) /pet warp should wipe the pet's hatelist and any standing commands

      3) /pet warp should not be possible while the pet is rooted/snared

      4) /pet warp should not be possible while the pet is in wait mode (/pet wait)


    How does this sound to everybody given the above?

    X
    Last edited by XtremTech; Jan 6th, 2003 at 14:40:53.
    Xtremtech: MetaPhysicist currently resident on Test. (209 + 21 AI Levels).

    Various other test MPs of differing levels and builds available.

  19. #19

    Re: Re: /pet warp in PvP

    Originally posted by The Beer Baron
    The only circumstance I can think of in PvP is when, lets say, your pet gets rooted, and Eng/Crat/Mp uses the /pet warp. As long as you can't warp while rooted or snared, should be fine for PvP.
    I asked this question a long time ago and can't see anty reason for this to be unbalancing or hard to implement.
    Felix Dimmufodr Age : lvl220 Agent

  20. #20
    Originally posted by XtremTech
    Within command range - as Buurn points out - we can essentially get the pet back to us quickly enogh using /pet behind so adding /pet warp would only gain us a few seconds really and certainly shouldn't be seen as being massively unbalancing.
    Whoops! Changed my post a little, if this was the impression it gave.
    Poor pathing means that we really _do_ need pets to warp, and and the pet has to be ready for action stright away to be of any use in pvm (well.. - pvp as well). It's not like soldiers run in circles around the mob for 5 sec before they can hit 'q')


    The out of range issue will still apply unless the /pet warp also wipes the pet's hatelist. We could warp the pet to us but then it would be back off to attack the tower anyway out of our control. As a result the /pet warp should wipe the hatelist as Sallust recommends. This would also mean that if the owner used /pet warp when the pet was within command range, he'd have to take a little extra time to retarget and command the pet to attack again which would balance out the situation a little more in this close range situation too.

    I'm going to suggest then that the following would be an acceptable solution:
    • 1) /pet warp should bring the pet to the owners side from anywhere on a playfield - even when the pet is in combat mode

      2) /pet warp should wipe the pet's hatelist and any standing commands

      3) /pet warp should not be possible while the pet is rooted/snared

      4) /pet warp should not be possible while the pet is in wait mode (/pet wait)


    How does this sound to everybody given the above?

    X
    Disagree on #4. Pet users "parking" their pets somewhere to look like less of a threat (or to be harder to find while sneaking) hardly sounds unbalancing to me.
    If anything's unbalanced, it's the ability to easily spot defenceless pet-users and **** them over.


    /Buurn

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