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Thread: Proposed design: If you can't be attacked, you can't assist with buffs and healing

  1. #141
    Any arguement taken to its extremes will start to seem absurd. I understand how silly it sounds to have some level 200 chars stomping on level 1 chars.

    My assertion, however, is that there is no acceptable way to stop it. The current proposal says that healing and buffing won't be allowed in the immediate area. This is insufficient. As has been pointed out, people will simply move to just outside the area and perform these actions there.

    Logically, we would address that by extending the "no help" zone farther and farther out. Quickly, we get to the point where buffing "out of range" chars is illegal in any zone that has towers of QL150 or under. Even this is insufficient because of towers that are near a zone border. So, then you get to the point where no "out of range" buffing of any sort is allowed anywhere at any time. Personally, I consider this too large a change in the game mechanics to be considered viable.

    But even if we disallow "out of range" buffing on a global level, that still isn't enough. Those same high level chars could simply give money and items to the low level people they can no longer buff. In some ways this is better for them, because this form of buffing doesn't require the high level char to be present to be effective. So if we really want to stop the high level char from interfering, we have to disallow trading "out of range". But of course, this is also insufficent. It's not necessary to trade items from a level 200 to a level 1 char, an item can take multiple trade steps from the level 200 to a level 180 to level 160 and so on.

    Again, there simply is no acceptable way to implement this as long as chars of vastly different level are allowed to intermingle. No one seems to like my "split the servers by level" concept, so I'll drop that. But I honestly don't see any other way.
    Heals - they're not just for tradeskills anymore
    Hypos omni doc RK2 <-- stupid enough to have thought that going past level 150 would help her be a better doc
    Phlair omni mp RK2 solo char
    Nerfbat omni enf RK2 awarded the hammer of braveness
    Shadow Ops

  2. #142
    The opponents of this idea seem to be ignoring the issure of uber guilds using the lack of a assist rule against them.

    Let say that your part of a guild with average level of 100 and have around 8-10 150+ characters( like I am ). And lets say for this argument that Clan Storm is a bunch of griefers. Well guess what will happens if Storm decide you won't have any bases. You WON'T have any bases. Because if your guild puts up a 50 or 100 base they will march in 10 lvl 50 or lvl 100 character with 10 lvl 200 doctors to back them up. So your 8-10 150+ players( who just happen to all be on at the right time) come in to help. Well then Storm with their 250ism 150+ members sends in 10-15 180+ character and you lose. And you will loss everytime they decide they don't like your guilds name and thus attack one of your bases. I would prefer to let the lower lvl members of my guild have their fun and not have to worry about some grief uber guilds.

    And uber guilds do control whatever part of the game they want to. Everytime that I have been at a popular high level spawn and a Storm member has shown up at least one person says in team " I sure hope the thing spawns before that guy calls in his friends ".

    To solve the problem of buffs and heals just put a 10 min or so tag on every character that enters the LC zone that stops them from getting a spell cast on them thats outside a certain lvl range.

  3. #143
    I'll throw in this reason for why high level chars should be allowed to attack and control lower level areas. Simply because it may be the best they can do. Land control areas are intentionally limited. If a couple high level chars are in a guild that's not strong enough to take land for a QL200 tower, then it's resonable for them to settle for something lower.

    This doesn't justify the level 200 vs level 1 arguement, but it does give a very valid reason for "out of range" combat. If 2 level 200s have to settle for a QL150 area, they should be able to defend it from the group of level 140 chars that also want that spot. In my opinion, this is reasonable and justifiable.
    Heals - they're not just for tradeskills anymore
    Hypos omni doc RK2 <-- stupid enough to have thought that going past level 150 would help her be a better doc
    Phlair omni mp RK2 solo char
    Nerfbat omni enf RK2 awarded the hammer of braveness
    Shadow Ops

  4. #144

    The only good idea.

    The only good idea so far is that if you decide to attack my base no matter what lvl you are i should be able to defend it and fight you. In this game there are to many guilds who would not have enough people to defend a a higher lvl tower because they only say have 10 people that are lvl 150 or higher so the must opt for the lower lvl towers which is a problem to defend for there higher lvl charecters because you will draw those darn lower lvl people that you cant kill and can only watch as they hack away at your towers.

    How do you fix this?

    Maybe you could set up something that if your a member of the guild being attacked then you could defend and fight any lvl player you wanted to who was attacking you. This would seem to be the best option as it would still keep all of the pvp rules while making it a "costly decision" to attack a guild that you might have attacked before due to there wide range of lvl's and lack of enough able defenders of there towers ql while your guild has a hundred lvl 90ish people.

  5. #145
    There is NO problem if you look at what's supposed to be happening when you attack a tower. You are attacking that tower's GUILD. Who really cares if that guild has a level 10 and a level 200? When you attacked their tower you attacked both of them the second you drew first blood. Those two people have every right to do whatever is necessary to ensure that both of them and their tower survive.

    The issue is that people are looking at attacking a level 10 tower like it is some kind of level 10 boss mob that is going to have some lackies show up to defend it. That's not the case. You are attacking an icon of an organization. When you pee on someone's front door and ring the doorbell, you had best have an idea who is going to be running out. Doesn't matter if it's Beverly Hills or a trailer home. You aren't just defacing a house, you are disrespecting the owner. That owner or owners have every right to defend what is theirs.

    The proposed change is a stupid game mechanic that utterly detracts from the tactics of both battle and politics. It's completely unecessary as proposed. I'd go so far to say as it may break the good spirit fostered by Notum Wars and at least degrade the entire tower experience severely. I still don't see what it is they are trying to fix. Or at least, I don't think what they are trying to fix needs fixing.

    Notum Wars is good right now. I defended our tower for 3 hours at the side of level 70's, 100's, 130's, 150's, 180's and we all had fun. I thought that's what it was all supposed to be about.

  6. #146
    Heres the problem Bio.

    Last night I was involved in an attack on a level 75 clan base in PM. Lots of Clanners are there who are too high to be attacked or to attack, yet we cannot win (or actually even kill a single clanner) because the high levels are healing the low levels - what you are saying is that we should bring some high level healers ourselves and turn the whole thing into a stalemate? Yeah brilliant idea! Why not just make all the towers high level only then and be done with it since what your suggest will practically guarantee high level presence at any tower battle.

    You forget orgs that dont have high level characters (mine is a good example).

    Yes its war and war isnt really fair, but this is a game and games are supposed to be fair (or at least not hugely onesided)
    Dont you think I look like Geordie from Star Trek?
    <-----------------------------------------------------------
    Actually I look more of a cross between him and Picard don't I?

  7. #147
    No Warlock, have your high level friends attack the high level defenders high level towers, then watch as they run like mad to defend it. Now your left alone.

    If an org decides to keep only one tower that should be both their strenght and their weakness (it will be easier to defend but you miss out on the high level org advantages).

  8. #148
    I suggest you put in towers that will negate buffs over a sertan ql.


    this will stop complete heals rrfs on low lvl twinks attacking a tower. but it will stop the defenders buffs too.

    and your lvl 150 doc want to join. he'll just have to use a lower ql heal.


    put in a tag system that'll tage you for 5 minutes if you help someone even if your lower lvl. this will stop lvl 50 doctors from making a lvl 100 person unkillable, now this tag will set the pvplvl of the toon helping as the same lvl as the tower. so if you can attack the tower u can kill then. extreme case a lvl 1 doc interfers in a lvl 200 tower fight, she has opted to be set at pvplvl 200.

    if your just standing there to watch the tower blow and nothing else you'll be safe. as u can be in a zone where 200 towers can be placed.

  9. #149
    yes illith i agree

    as i said earlier add towers that do things to people that are different lvls so lower lvl bases can have towers that do fun and nasty things to higher lvl players who try to come attack adding a new element and depth to tactics needed. use of imagination rather than the nerf stick is better...

    add content dont remove it.............

    for higher lvl players involved in an attack
    imagine a tower that stuns your high lvl doc who is healing and negates all his armour and leaves him open to attack for 30 seconds by all.. or an area no CH tower.. so although you cant use it on your own others attacking cant either..
    a tower that makes your damage x times bigger as the lvl of a player exceeds your own but if you attack him you become open to attack...giving lower players the choice to attack above their lvl range...probably all lame ideas but you see what i am sayig i hope
    people like choice it adds to the fun and complexities of the game, lvl restrictions add constraints that limit choice and the playablility and hence the fun fo the game.


    and if the massive guilds decide your not going to have a tower its as simple as that i think. a lvl 10 tower wont stand up to 50+ lvl 10 twinks who charge in and attack it all overbuffed...i doubt you'd even get a single person there before it fell..you just have to organise to get more friends than them, or be sure they are kept busy....
    woohoo at last!!!! i've found my MK IV
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  10. #150

    Arrow

    Almost sounds like what is needed is a handicap system for players above the PvP range of the controller.

    Players below the PvP range of the controller should not be able to be attacked unless they choose to attack first, then they should be PvP flagged. Players who are not PvP flagged, should be unable to cast nanos on players who are PvP flagged.

    Players above the PvP range of the controller should be debuffed to a certain extent. Some suggestions would be a penalty to their AllOff and AllDef, a QL cap on the nanos they can cast, an increased nano cost, a penalty to their damage, a reduction in their armour, affected by a negative heal delta, terminating of nanos above a ql cap etc. The further above the PvP range of the controller, the greater the penalties. These would only apply whilst PvP flagged and in an LCA.

    (And me is wondering whether Jynne is really a Shadow Agent... )
    "Do not try and catch the hamster... that's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth... There is no hamster, only a deadbeat rollerat..."

    [Social] Means: I don't think we removed any bosses because of bad pathing...there wouldnt be any left if we did :P

    AO Character Skill Emulator and Character Parser and AO Implant Layout Helper

  11. #151
    don't have time to read all this, just posting what I think of the access to Land Controlled areas.

    The Defenders decide the PvP range for the attackers that can get into the Land Control in first place. If the defenders is from level 65-85 will only attackers from 57-95 be allowed to enter the Land Controlled area. If there is no defenders around there will the PvP range be calculated out from the level of the tower. But if there is a level 200 Doc (as defender) by the QL75 Tower, will the range be from 65-200 so high levels may be able to take down that doc healing the lower levels. This will also prevent a level 200 Doc support lowlevels to attack a tower

  12. #152
    I would prefer a solution that doesn't nerf anyone and where guilds can still play together in a wide range of level areas.

    I also believe attacking is too one-sided when outside buffing is allowed without consequence. I prefer a solution that allows more freedom, and few restrictions on the ways people normally play.

    My first post on this thread suggested PvP tagging anyone who attacked AND anyone who assisted attacking (with buffs). And I believe this tagging should not go away just because a player leaves the LCA. Maybe 3 hours is too long, others have suggested 30 minutes...sounds good. The PvP tagged player should be attackable by any player in PvP range. (Being in a team shouldn't widen the PvP brakcets for anyone in an LC scenario).

    No one said that wouldn't work, except to say that noone should have to have high level friends to play NW effectively. WEll, every player has high-level friends, due to the fact that they are Clan, Omni or Neutral. Many players care what happens to bases controlled by you. You will get help if you yell 'HELP' loud enough. And if the players who come to help can enjoy themselves by picking off PvP tagged players not directly involved in the battle, you might even get a sizeable crowd to help. Now, that sounds like more fun than showing up and not being able to help at all as the Cz proposal reads.

    So, does this help solve the problem? I prefer a minor fix rather than going too far in one direction. So, this isn't meant to have a huge effect, just maybe enough to make it a bit more fun and fair.

    Crowd Control will change everything, so lets not move too quickly with the nerfing and complicated rules.

  13. #153
    Originally posted by Darkbane
    Almost sounds like what is needed is a handicap system for players above the PvP range of the controller.

    Players below the PvP range of the controller should not be able to be attacked unless they choose to attack first, then they should be PvP flagged. Players who are not PvP flagged, should be unable to cast nanos on players who are PvP flagged.

    Players above the PvP range of the controller should be debuffed to a certain extent. Some suggestions would be a penalty to their AllOff and AllDef, a QL cap on the nanos they can cast, an increased nano cost, a penalty to their damage, a reduction in their armour, affected by a negative heal delta, terminating of nanos above a ql cap etc. The further above the PvP range of the controller, the greater the penalties. These would only apply whilst PvP flagged and in an LCA.

    (And me is wondering whether Jynne is really a Shadow Agent... )
    Actually I'd settle for a really huge cannon that noticed the level 180 Doctor heal the level 50 Enforcer and immediately paints the landscape with Doc blood
    History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave. - Edmund Morris

    The first faults are theirs that commit them, the second theirs that permit them. - Unknown

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  14. #154
    Originally posted by Bionitrous
    There is NO problem if you look at what's supposed to be happening when you attack a tower. You are attacking that tower's GUILD. Who really cares if that guild has a level 10 and a level 200? When you attacked their tower you attacked both of them the second you drew first blood. Those two people have every right to do whatever is necessary to ensure that both of them and their tower survive.

    The issue is that people are looking at attacking a level 10 tower like it is some kind of level 10 boss mob that is going to have some lackies show up to defend it. That's not the case. You are attacking an icon of an organization. When you pee on someone's front door and ring the doorbell, you had best have an idea who is going to be running out. Doesn't matter if it's Beverly Hills or a trailer home. You aren't just defacing a house, you are disrespecting the owner. That owner or owners have every right to defend what is theirs.

    The proposed change is a stupid game mechanic that utterly detracts from the tactics of both battle and politics. It's completely unecessary as proposed. I'd go so far to say as it may break the good spirit fostered by Notum Wars and at least degrade the entire tower experience severely. I still don't see what it is they are trying to fix. Or at least, I don't think what they are trying to fix needs fixing.

    Notum Wars is good right now. I defended our tower for 3 hours at the side of level 70's, 100's, 130's, 150's, 180's and we all had fun. I thought that's what it was all supposed to be about.
    Exactly, Bio.

    Weakness isn't a virtue. Fairness doesn't demand that the strong be weakened until the weak are stronger - that only ever becomes a never-ending race... to the bottom. This game is fair to the extent that everyone has equal opportunity to level up and get as strong as they want to get. Nobody can prevent you from getting missions and growing stronger.

    If you need to grow stronger before you can fight an organization you want to attack on even terms... well DOH! That's the whole point of gaining strength. Either shut up and go level, shut up and get some high level friends, or shut up and attack someone else. Just because you want to attack a base doesn't mean you're entitled to conquering it! It doesn't matter what QL it is, or what level you are, you have no right to any victory, easy or hard. Earn your victories! Is that really so tough to swallow?

    If I want to take on an uberguild then guess what? I'm going to have to go get stronger. What am I going to do? I'm going to go get stronger. I'll go to Camelot on Big-Lizard Powerball nights to get better items. I'll go to Home and grind away exp missions. I'll blitz for better stuff and for stuff to sell to make money to buy better stuff. I'll help my guildmates get stronger and better in the same ways.

    I won't be here trying to convince Funcom that the uberguild shouldn't be able to fight me back, and should just have to watch while I fumble around fighting their towers, because it wouldn't be "fair."

    And then when I'm strong enough and I go and take down a QL 220 base... I will feel a sense of accomplishment, because I will have earned it!
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
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  15. #155
    Originally posted by Jynne
    If you need to grow stronger before you can fight an organization you want to attack on even terms... well DOH! That's the whole point of gaining strength. Either shut up and go level, shut up and get some high level friends, or shut up and attack someone else. Just because you want to attack a base doesn't mean you're entitled to conquering it! It doesn't matter what QL it is, or what level you are, you have no right to any victory, easy or hard. Earn your victories! Is that really so tough to swallow? [/B]
    Take all the low level towers away now then and just leave 150+!

    If you have to level up to 100+ (just picking numbers here) just to take out a level 50 base (because the defenders have level 100+ players supporting) then the low level characters themselves become irrelevant (they become an avatar of the high level players abilities) as the whole thing is ultimately decided by the high level players

    Players should attack/defend towers of their appropriate level

    End of story.
    Dont you think I look like Geordie from Star Trek?
    <-----------------------------------------------------------
    Actually I look more of a cross between him and Picard don't I?

  16. #156
    Originally posted by Warlock


    Take all the low level towers away now then and just leave 150+!

    If you have to level up to 100+ (just picking numbers here) just to take out a level 50 base (because the defenders have level 100+ players supporting) then the low level characters themselves become irrelevant (they become an avatar of the high level players abilities) as the whole thing is ultimately decided by the high level players

    Players should attack/defend towers of their appropriate level

    End of story.
    No, organizations should attack and defend towers in line with their own power.

    We aren't pvping one-on-one. This isn't a duel. It's not even a duel between two orgs, it's a war. They say War is Hell, not War is Fair.
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
    The Doctor Guide to: Notum Wars Martial Arts Perks! Nano Controller Units
    The General Guide to: Auto-Combat General Perks

    Visit the Roses and check out the shops in our City, NE of ICC at 4500x1500 in Andromeda!

    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  17. #157
    As I said before, war is not fair, but games are.

    Realism must give way to fun every time. Its not fun to get your base pounded (or your attack pounded) because the other side had players present that were outside the PvP range and you didnt (maybe because you havent got any) and thus there was nothing you can do about it

    That not fun thats futility
    Dont you think I look like Geordie from Star Trek?
    <-----------------------------------------------------------
    Actually I look more of a cross between him and Picard don't I?

  18. #158

    Re: I dont think this is a good idea

    Originally posted by Zarch
    It just creates too many "rules" when the rule in everything from 25% and less should be that you are free meal.

    Or perhaps some very broad areas like:

    200-100 can fight
    150-50 can fight
    100-0 can fight

    The point where you really start to make difference in big fights is about 150+ in my opinion and nothing under 100 really make the difference anyways so it dont really matter if they are there or not (except for the lag).

    So I think the new level guides suggested above would solve most of the problems you are now wondering.

    What you think?

    Zarch and da chars from 30 to 177



    BUMP!!!

    I agree. Towers belong to guilds. It even says so in their descriptions and when you go into a controlled area (XYZ Location: Red Tigers - not XYZ Location: Hatchet or XYZ Location: PvP zone 20th level). If you attack a Red Tigers area then you can bet your bottem dollar every single Red Tiger that is logged on or w/ in phone call range will be there asap.

    This makes it where if you want to take a tower you have to plan for it. You have to make sure you have all levels represented.

    Perhaps then, on a ql 50 tower ONLY 50th level players can attack THE TOWER. However if you are a 50th level Omni and you run into Apocolypse's (high level guild) area with thier ql 200 towers and numerous 200th level players you should EXPECT to get slaughtered and not whine, ***** or complain because you died.

    Um, DUH!

    Hatchet
    President, Red Tigers

  19. #159
    Originally posted by Warlock
    As I said before, war is not fair, but games are.

    Realism must give way to fun every time. Its not fun to get your base pounded (or your attack pounded) because the other side had players present that were outside the PvP range and you didnt (maybe because you havent got any) and thus there was nothing you can do about it

    That not fun thats futility
    YES!

    That's exactly my point!!

    It's not fun for me to see my base pounded and be unable to stop it, because the people doing the pounding are too low level for me to fight back against!

    See, if I build a base over QL 150, it gets destroyed by an uber guild. So I don't. They're stronger, I accept that - I recognize and work within my own org's limits.

    Now you're trying to tell me that if I stay within my own org's limits, I should lose to a newbie guild? It might be fun to them, but it's sure not fun to me. I paid the same $20 they did.
    Taren "Jynne" Suitt, Level 216/16 Eternalist
    Knight of Unity of the Rose - Check out our AO Tools!
    The Doctor Guide to: Notum Wars Martial Arts Perks! Nano Controller Units
    The General Guide to: Auto-Combat General Perks

    Visit the Roses and check out the shops in our City, NE of ICC at 4500x1500 in Andromeda!

    Iron Law of Exploits: If it can be exploited, it will be exploited. However a rule is exploitable, the exploits become the rule.

  20. #160
    Grrrr I qouted the wrong thing :/

    This was the quote I was going for:

    <quote>
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Jynne
    I think that we have to bear in mind that these fights are supposed to be fun, so far they mostly have been fun (with the exception of the lagfests) and their purpose is for fun.

    Showing up to defend a guild and not being able to attack anyone isn't much fun. Showing up and getting warped away for not being in the right level range wouldn't be fun. Showing up and not being able to heal other Clanners who are dying won't be much fun either. Especially if said Clanners are my guildmates.

    I know that we don't want high level people to ruin low level peoples' fun, and that's important. But we also shouldn't make it so that high level peoples' fun gets ruined, either.

    I'm level 167. I'm not in an uberguild, we have people from level 30 to level 168. Why should I have to level an alt to help my lower-level guildmates or defend a ql 75 or ql 100 tower? Why should I spend precious time logging out, waiting for AO to free memory, and then logging back in as a lower level character just so I can participate in the battle and defend what's mine? If it's my guild's controlled area, I should be able to defend it regardless of my level. I should be able to just walk up and kill a level 70 guy attacking my guild's turrets in three hits. If my being there and my being able to heal my allies there and butcher lower level people attacking it means that a lower level, lower power guild can't ever take the spot over... that is kind of the point!

    Why should a weaker (lower level) attacking force be protected from, and thereby be able to defeat, a stronger (higher level) force... on that stronger force's home ground? That's essentially what the current trend of pvp rules is going to create: a situation where victory will not go to the strongest fighters, or the most skilled fighters, but to the cleverest PvP-rules-manipulators.

    Please have the designers consider this. If you're fighting on a guild's home ground, everyone in that guild - and only that particular guild - should be able to attack you and heal and buff each other, regardless of the other pvp rules. These are our bases. Let us defend them.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    <end quote>

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