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Thread: Retail, pre-order, download and launch

  1. #41
    Originally posted by Noer
    I am affraid of loosing my title? rofl

    Guess I can't fall asleep in 2ho anymore then. Guess you need to research a bit more on that part.
    O_o

    Then why are you so concerned about being **ed? If someone had something that I didn't want them to have because it would give them a huge advantage over me, I'd stop them from having it... even with the inconvenience of being PvPable. For you, it shouldn't be THAT big a deal. As I said, I'm sure you and a few guild buddies could deter any threat, even if you didn't just go camp in the Grid or fall asleep in 2HO.
    Aleksei "Zagadka" Garcia - Savior, Council Clerk
    Cindi "Razishlyat" Bolieu - Advisor Eternalist

  2. #42
    Originally posted by Razishlyat


    O_o

    Then why are you so concerned about being **ed? If someone had something that I didn't want them to have because it would give them a huge advantage over me, I'd stop them from having it... even with the inconvenience of being PvPable. For you, it shouldn't be THAT big a deal. As I said, I'm sure you and a few guild buddies could deter any threat, even if you didn't just go camp in the Grid or fall asleep in 2HO.
    Because what is the reason to go get yourself flagged? Its a loose <-> loose situation. It takes them few moments to place a tower taken down, just as half of the server chasing flagged people. Already happened when people were flagged by mistake where they were camped at reclaims. And you can't put a base there anyway and get the advantage of winning a battle.
    "Should start a combined raid/NW bot, where people get points if they help take down a clan base. Should be most effective." - Said by Waikase 14th of May 2003 in sarcasm to the appearance of the first raidbots on Rk1.

  3. #43
    Originally posted by Abunari
    I find it very difficult to reconcile the above statement with your previous statement that your position secured for you an advanced key and that you suggest that others "try" the same.
    My statement referred to my position as an *American*, not a webmaster. I suggested that others "try" to find Americans who could purchase the game for them in proxy. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear to you.

    I think the presumption is all yours. I see Noer's point perfectly.

    Without having towers of your own, how are you participating? The 4 hour penalty is to prevent tower-less raiders from just destroying towers and not giving anyone the ability to retaliate in the same way. Yet that is the situation that your promoting: griefing.

    I want to defend my towers. I want to attack towers while risking attack on my towers. I don't want to run a guild of towerless griefers who have to log alts in for 4 hours after a raid.

    I understand all of that. That's the heart of Notum Wars... I'm not saying do this permanently... but look at the facts this way:

    * FunCom is not going to deactivate Notum Wars

    * You don't want someone to hold land before you can

    The only option players have left is to take it on their own responsibility to make sure that no one has an advantage over them. Hell, I'd consider it a week of fun, and I'll join in with any of my characters. But the way I see it, you can sit back and complain to FC in a futile attmept to blanket-grief everyone by disabling the towers anyway, or you can dive into the heart of the game - the war, and preventing the enemy from having an advantage.
    Aleksei "Zagadka" Garcia - Savior, Council Clerk
    Cindi "Razishlyat" Bolieu - Advisor Eternalist

  4. #44
    Originally posted by Noer
    Because what is the reason to go get yourself flagged? Its a loose <-> loose situation. It takes them few moments to place a tower taken down, just as half of the server chasing flagged people. Already happened when people were flagged by mistake where they were camped at reclaims. And you can't put a base there anyway and get the advantage of winning a battle.
    If I understood your argument from early, the unfairness was that the people with NW now would have a solid week to assemble an invincible base, correct? Regular raids on that base would prevent this from happening, and if your force were large enough, you wouldn't have too much to worry about large numbers of dead people...

    If this isn't the case, and the people having a solid wee kto set up bases doesn't matter, then what stops you from ganking the base after a week and everyone has Notum Wars?

    Times are tough, yea, but how many choices do you have, here?
    Aleksei "Zagadka" Garcia - Savior, Council Clerk
    Cindi "Razishlyat" Bolieu - Advisor Eternalist

  5. #45
    Originally posted by Razishlyat
    Regular raids on that base would prevent this from happening, and if your force were large enough, you wouldn't have too much to worry about large numbers of dead people...
    Time to read up on the gaschanging? You have few hours to attack them in, and all the time in the world to build them.
    "Should start a combined raid/NW bot, where people get points if they help take down a clan base. Should be most effective." - Said by Waikase 14th of May 2003 in sarcasm to the appearance of the first raidbots on Rk1.

  6. #46
    Originally posted by Noer
    Time to read up on the gaschanging? You have few hours to attack them in, and all the time in the world to build them.
    I'm versed enough in gas changing. But if it only takes that period to rebuild the base to that effect, what is the worry of people having a week to become invincible? Wouldn't their base be as easy to take out tomorrow as it was next Friday?

    Of course, your concern is being **ed for this particular assault, and not having any open land to use by the time you get NW so needing to take out the base while **ed. But then, in order to take their land, you need someone with NW anyway, yes?

    Anyway, I refuse to believe that your guild does not have or know one person who can grab Notum Wars where it *is* available by Monday. The people who have it now got it from somewhere.
    Last edited by Zagadka; Nov 29th, 2002 at 20:43:44.
    Aleksei "Zagadka" Garcia - Savior, Council Clerk
    Cindi "Razishlyat" Bolieu - Advisor Eternalist

  7. #47
    Originally posted by Razishlyat
    My statement referred to my position as an *American*, not a webmaster. I suggested that others "try" to find Americans who could purchase the game for them in proxy. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear to you.
    Oh, I see now. Hard to be "clear" when you don't use ascii equivalent characters.

    I don't see any advantage in waging a war when you're not producing notum. The very fact that you're an open target for 4 hours will inspire the entire server to come after you. Gee that sounds like so much fun doesn't it? Like sitting around camelot for hours on end.

  8. #48
    Originally posted by Abunari
    Oh, I see now. Hard to be "clear" when you don't use ascii equivalent characters.
    *confused, but OK* :-)

    I don't see any advantage in waging a war when you're not producing notum. The very fact that you're an open target for 4 hours will inspire the entire server to come after you. Gee that sounds like so much fun doesn't it? Like sitting around camelot for hours on end.
    Eh, not so much fun, no, but I think it is something that will be necessary, and there are ways to work around it. Protection in numbers - again, the point I was bringing up with Noer's guild size. There ain't much that is gonna show up to gank a dozen level 180+ people standing in friendly territory. If you're that worried about it, go to the Grid or hell, even go to other PvP zones. Not like you're gonna worry about your team being **ed while you're attacking yet another tower :-) At the least, it's a Way Out Of The Mess For Now (tm).
    Aleksei "Zagadka" Garcia - Savior, Council Clerk
    Cindi "Razishlyat" Bolieu - Advisor Eternalist

  9. #49

    Re: Retail, pre-order, download and launch

    Originally posted by Cz
    I see some questions about these topics, and would like to give you some feedback on them.

    Retail and pre-order
    Many retail stores, especially in Europe, do not have the Notum Wars on the shelves yet. This is very unfortunate, but nothing we can do anything about. We have shipped the boxes off to our distributors (both retail and pre-order), and have no control of international distribution, customs, transport routes, or local distribution.

    Download

    Basically, a download offer would undermine our retail partners' sales, and we're not going to do that.

    Launch day
    Today we launched. We postponed it one day, due to Thanksgivings, and the fact that close to nobody would have the product yet. Today, a lot of players have recieved their box, or can obtain the box from a retail store, and we see people registering and using the new features.

    Some have suggested that we remove the ability to place towers until more players have the box. This is basically telling the customers who have bought the product that they can't use it (or at least the main feature in it), and not something we see as a valid option.

    {Added:
    We will of course make sure to take this whole situation into account in future releases, and plan for avoiding such difficulties.}

    what retail chain? no one will stock your game because the first one was released in such a god awful form. ALL I WANT IS A KEY, I DONT NEED A DISC, A BOX, OR A GOD AWFUL MANUAL.
    President of Midnight Reveries

  10. #50
    Abit late but..

    Where the hell can I find a copy in Canada !!

    EB won't get it till Dec. 2, who usually gets any new release on the first day! As I walk in to the store expecting to pickup a copy, I was stunned to find out they don't have any till then.....


    I think ya should just make any new expansions, booster packs on-line as u can't even find the original AO in stores no more... where did they all go??

    <added> You all forgot Canada again... We are still here and living well... </added>

  11. #51
    In case some of you didn't check out my posts in the thread Cz has rooted, I'm the Funcom PR manager and I'm trying to help Cz answer some of these questions over the next few days. I want everyone to know that we hear you and we are doing everything we can to encourage our distributors to get the products to stores...worldwide. I know I was surprised when I first got into the industry and learned how this system works, so I hope that what I have to say will help you all understand a bit too. Basically, it's not a nice or easy system for anyone in the games industry...and usually, it's the consumer who gets the shaft Every games company struggles with trying to get a simultaneous launch.

    The very unfortunate situation is that we don't choose the stores our product will be in...they choose us. No retail chain for any industry is required to take in any product. They choose what they want to have on their shelves. The power is completely in the hands of the retailer (and then later, their distributor who actually brings the product to them), unless you're a huge company that has a lot of products that are in demand. We have one product: Anarchy Online. We have no power with retail, but we must maintain a presence there. And yes, that means that not every retail chain will carry TNW or AO. But our sales staff has worked hard and many chains will.

    From the discussions here, I found a couple of things to be interesting. First, I think we were the first ones to offer an MMOG as a full download (maybe I'm wrong, but I think we are still even one of the few who do offer it). Yes, that does not include TNW right now, but that is for some very specific reasons, which we've answered before. So I find it interesting that we're being hammered for not having it as a download offer when we started the whole trend to begin with. If we'd never offered it with the original AO, as many of our competitors have decided not to do, you all would never even suggest it as an option...

    Second, in this very thread we see people saying we should ignore retail and go straight for only downloadable products (which is simply impossible until more people worldwide get broadband) and others saying that they can't find the original AO in the stores so we must be doing a horrible job. Then, when people can't find AO in stores (even though it's available online), and when it's not sold in stores we can't be on any PC Data type lists, then rumors start running that we've gone bankrupt. If you can just imagine how that must look to investors, analysts, and the press...which of course gets back to all of you, you can see why it's a concern on many different levels.

    The honest fact is that we love the download option and the original AO is still available as a download. But the practical implication is that has caused tension for us with retail. We have a lot of things we must take into consideration, as we've tried to explain. We want to offer it for TNW, but we can't right now.

    Our printers tell us their copies have been shipped to our distributors. Our distributors tell us they are getting it to stores. Remember that distributors handle products for lots of game companies though..some times even our competitors..and it is the "holiday buying season".

    I'm not here to argue. What I'm here to do is address your concerns and give you the explanation you've been asking for. We are just as frustrated with this situation as you all are. As a business, you must be able to imagine that our goal is to have AO and TNW available everywhere! How would it make sense for us to purposefully delay availability in any country or for any store? This isn't personal: we don't "choose" our favorite countries and we don't "give" the product to our favorite stores. It's business and the control at this point is not on our side.

    As for the general advantage concern: attacking towers without owning towers is not an exploit...that's a planned part of gameplay. There are limited areas and we hope that groups who don't have towers at any point in the game will try to take down established ones. Come on, some of you must like strategy . Also though, we haven't opened all of the LC areas. Some, we will open later, so no, not all the available areas will be taken this week. And this isn't ideal...we wanted everyone to duke it out at once, but the gameplay should still be fun and you don't have to have TNW in order to attack or defend an area.

    I really need to get some sleep now but I will try to pop on during the weekend and see if this information has been helpful. And please realize that this explanation isn't an excuse. We are working really hard and pushing our partners as much as we can to get the game out to everyone as quickly as possible .

  12. #52

    Re: Retail, pre-order, download and launch

    Originally posted by Cz


    Download

    Basically, a download offer would undermine our retail partners' sales, and we're not going to do that.

    [/B]
    Yeah... It's much better to undermine the customer. I would think the customer is way more important to the life of the product. Maybe that's just me though.
    Jennii
    Unit Member - Storm
    Jenestria
    Gumpp
    Gridchik

    "Only n00bs whine about twinks"

  13. #53

    Heh heh...

    I think I'll save this thread and the following quote:

    Quote start:

    As for the general advantage concern: attacking towers without owning towers is not an exploit...that's a planned part of gameplay. There are limited areas and we hope that groups who don't have towers at any point in the game will try to take down established ones.

    Quote end:

    IMO those owning the towers will think this griefing but its good to have this written down here so that anyone calling me or anyone else griefer because we destroy your towers while you will not have anything to retaliate can be shown that it is not exploiting and it is not griefing

    This is IMO a win win situation for untitled (no PvP title) people. They can cause major havok if enough of them and cause you lose quite few millions in the process and all you can do is to kill them for as long as they allow.

    And what is 2-3 mins ress effect time anyways? No big deal. But if you dont want to lose even that, you can always camp grid or play alt for the time you are open for attack or just stay together. Few high lvl people standing together will wipe most of the "to be retributors" easy enough.

    Again, it seems like NOT owning the towers will give you best strategical position in this NW.

    Zarch and da chars

  14. #54
    There is one store within 100 miles of me that is carrying Notum Wars. But they don't have it yet and won't till December sometime. One store. Not even a chain. Just one rinky dink little 10x15 store in a mall. The major chains either haven't heard of it, or told me they will not carry it because there wouldn't be enough consumer interest.

    To order it online, it will cost me the game price, plus shipping which is the SAME price as the game.

    I look at what Notum Wars is, and I don't understand to be honest. You're charging 20 bucks for Notum Wars...which is basically AO with a NW key. You charge 20 bucks for AO without the NW key. Am I the only one who goes, 'hmmm.'

    Considering how many people can't get a hold of this booster without paying insane shipping prices, I'm a little dubious that your hands are clean from this fiasco. *shrug*

  15. #55

    Question NW all over the world?!?

    Only way that they could have been avoiding this, is to wait to all the shops in Europe and rest of the world have the NW in sale, and that is impossible. The only smart thing to do, is to Acvtivate NW as soon as all Pre-ordered packs have been shipped out. I did pre-order as well, and still no NW in my mailbox.I can see that everyone is pissed off, but there is not mutch FC can do now, I hope they will be a bit smarter on the "hopefully" release of SL.

  16. #56

    WHAT HAS HAPPENED?

    When I quit playing this game back in June it was a great game. I come back now in November and I lag. I call every retail store within 200 miles -yes it's crazy but I have driven farther- and no one has the game wednesday. I call them all again Friday and get the same story. But wait.. most of them in fact 90% of them did in fact get UPS Friday. Clearly this is nothing to do with UPS. The game never shipped in volume. Basically they decided to limit the launch probably because they wanted to play it safe. And... undermining retailers? Charge the same amount and what do you care where I buy the game. The retailers will still stock the game. Land "control" should not be available until the MAJORITY of players have access to it.

  17. #57
    *shakes his head*

    April has been very patient and detailed in outlining the relationship between FunCom and the retailers. In case you didn't get the PR-laden gist, I'll translate to gamer-terms:

    A company makes the product. Some companies are owned by larger companies, such as EA, Sony, and Sierra (you see how those are connected). Those large corporations have contracts with retail chains across the country that basically read, "OK n00bs, you're gonna put Battlefield 1942, The Sims Online, Harry Potter, SimCity4, and Earth and Beyond on the 3rd shelf at eye level, or you're not going to get to carry any of those games, your store will blow chunks, and we'll buy your office furniture at liquidation prices."

    Unfortunately/Fortunately for us, FunCom is an independent company. That means that they don't have to meet the requirements of a Sony and can do what they want, really, like introduce booster packs, lease AO to other companies, etc. It also means that they lack this large distribution network (not only that, they are hardly in a position to say "You need to stock this game.") Thus, they have to negotiate each contract on their own. If you don't know how these things work, there are a lot of trade publications floating about where companies talk to other companies- FC says that NW is coming out and contact is made with stores who want to carry it. Obviously, not every store is going to jump at this offer, and those who do want assurances that they will sell the units.

    Companies know units will sell because the sales figures are published from the shops to the trade publications. Stores know this as well as FunCom does, obviously - they have the leverage to say "You will offer this game ONLY though store purchase for the initial purchase period, or we won't carry it." FC doesn't have much choice here.

    If Notum Wars is not carried in stores, the stores will report no sales, and as April pointed out, investors, who also read trade publications, will raise an eyebrow. FunCom also loses future contracts with stores.

    Downloading may be a LOT more convenient for us as players, and I certainly agree with that sentiment, but business is an entire different world.

    To wrap up, FunCom needs to actually sell the game via 3rd parties, since publishing self-shipped units tends not to be so trusted in things where this much money is involved. In order to entice the stores into selling AO, FunCom, who doesn't have a strong position in the negotiations, needs to make concessions, like assuring the stores that they have their xxx thousand subscribers who will be buying it, and would be buying it from them. If 95% of those subscribers are going to download it, the stores aren't going to make any money, and they would roll their eyes and give more shelf space to Deer Hunter or some ****e. But alas, FunCom has signed the deal with the devil and is tied into this position.

    Which leaves FC at the next phase. NW is finished, they ship it to be printed, and the printers ship it to the distributors. At this point it's pretty much way out of FC's hands - from here, the shops can say they will start selling it next June if they want.

    Knowing how stores work, they often keep boxes of stuff piled in stock because their shelf space is decided for a certain pattern each week (the aforementioned "Put it at eye level or we gank j00" contract). Say the store got NW Thursday. It's really kinda an odd day for it - most CDs, movies, and games are released on Tuesdays or Wednesdays, not Fridays. Why? Probably mostly to do with shipping - the extra Monday in case the deliver was held at the weekend and the rest of the week to stock. They have their shelf space laid out - they're hardly going to say "OH w00t WE GOT NW QUICK PUSH THAT OTHER CRAP OFF THE SHELVES"... they're going to mark it in inventory and schedule it to be put out onto shelves next week (unless it is a really hot product, in which case they'd be prepared - and most of these stores don't even know what Anarchy Online is, much less that it went live on the 29th of November).

    Now. What happened and what should have happened. Well, firstly, if I were FC, I would give a good solid week between when I expect NW to be in shops and when it goes live. That means, say, having shipped it on an imaginary date the 1st, expecting it to be in shops by the 4th, not going live until about the 12th (adding a weekend in there). That's plenty of wriggle room. People would be sitting on NW boxes for a while, but they would be sure to have them. I hope a larger window is given for Shadowlands, certainly O_o

    As far as getting a jump on other people, I disagree completely with most of you. You may not be able to build towers, but you can keep people from keeping their advantage.
    Last edited by Zagadka; Dec 1st, 2002 at 10:02:55.
    Aleksei "Zagadka" Garcia - Savior, Council Clerk
    Cindi "Razishlyat" Bolieu - Advisor Eternalist

  18. #58
    Oh, erm, my other suggestion was to use a retailer that offered purchases as per online order normal, but downloads through their site. There are a handful that do this, but getting the server space is an additional demand to overcome.

    The best solution would be a larger buffer time between shipping and activating. Better for us to wait in anticipation than get screwed.
    Aleksei "Zagadka" Garcia - Savior, Council Clerk
    Cindi "Razishlyat" Bolieu - Advisor Eternalist

  19. #59

    hmmm

    I know for a fact that Babbages in Holland Michigan wanted to have copies of Anarchy Online. They had pre orders that were pre paid. Same goes for Software Etc. in Grand Rapids Michigan. Both stores received UPS Wednesday and Friday. Both stores did NOT receive ANY copies of Notum Wars.

    I am curious, did more people buy Anarchy-Online at retailers or did more people download it? Well over half of the people I know and play with in the game downloaded it. The fact that Notum Wars is not available to me and lots and lots of other people is not to be excused with any kind of market jargon. And the idea that they were not aware that this would be the case only serves to undermine your entire "theory".

  20. #60

    Razishlyat...

    ... fair enough, wonderful logistics and all that but:

    I'm the customer and I don't care.

    As the customer, I was told I could have something and in faith followed what appeared to be the "preferred" choice of FunCom and placed an order. I even opted (as so many did) to pay more for express delivery. It didn't happen therefore I am disgruntled.

    Lets reduce this to basics and get rid of all the fanboy/troll attitudes. Fundementally, FunCom is a company with a product to sell, I'm a customer who wants to buy and it just didn't happen.

    FunCom is not my pal, FunCom is a company I pay to provide a service at it's most basic level. That service is consistantly being degraded.

    Now, as with all MMORPG's a spirit of community appears and we try and morally support the company behind the game, get to know their public face through the forums and through their volunteer programs and that usually means we're all loved up but... never, ever, forget the simple fact that I am a paying customer and that I simply want what I've been promised!

    Personally I wanted NW for the vechicles. I don't give a damn about land control (if I did, I'd play Tribes 2, a far more superior product for that style of game play). Don't try and be condesending and tell me I can still get involved until it arrives, thats a disgusting attitude to take.

    I understand and concur that the company representatives are doing a sterling job with attempting to communicate the issues to the player base and flaming them as individuals is wrong.

    Yet, on the flipside, I don't care. FunCom, the company has failed to deliver. I don't give a damn about the distributior monopoly, it is rife, but I don't care. In the customers eyes, FunCom has failed and it is as simple as that.
    As stated, I don't give a damn (my, I am being mild...) about Land Control but I will buy the product and will support the development of the game in hope that once the PvP aspect of the game and been resolved then some quality RP aspect is introduced throughout the timezones for the everyday player to interact with (rather than just be a ruddy observer).

    Finally, thanks for the horrible amount of lag introduced to the game, I'm amazed how bad it is. The amount of playfield shifts failing is unbelieveable... or is this a by product of the player limiting aspect? How much fun do you think it is being stuck in a store because the outside appears to be 'full'?

    I'll walk away now, the more I look at this the more I really wonder why I play. I don't mind be asked to be supportive as improvements are made but asked to look the other way as I am repeatedly rogered is another thing all together...
    S.A.B.I
    Sentinent Artificial Biological Interface

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