Rules transparency

[____________Hannibal]

So why does Funcom keep the actual rules system hidden away like some dark formula? It really seems to be pretty silly that the players have to spend time groping around figuring out how the silly game works. They give us some stats, but don't give us others? (I'm refering to +att and +def modifiers) We really shouldn't have to be guessing as to what exactly they do. This seems really silly! Funcom should let the players know how the mechanics of the game work!

[__________Wraith God]

Yup, I completely agree. As it stands right now, its like a secret society: if you read the right forums and websites, and talk to the right people, you can actually get a solid understanding of game mechanics. If you don't, or you're a newbie, its a complete mystery.

The origninal manual didn't even have a section on pet control. Why? Who knows? Its totally mindless in my view. The game is complex enough as it is without without having to guess about how everything works, without having to search high and low to get insight into what the number on items mean and when they are effective, without having to find out through trial and error or broadcast on the newbie channel, the basics of pet control, etc. The description of MA special attack is classic: 100% bafflegab; 0% useful information.

One of Funcom's biggest problems is their inability to communicate, and their seeming lack of understanding of the requirements of communication. This shows up in their documentation, in the design of the interface, in the design of the chat, in the primitive economic system, in the quests, in the feedback, in the controls, etc. The game is replete with missing information, partial information, and vestigial control systems.

Some of it, like the MA special attacks, for whatever reason is specifically their design intent. The rest of it is because they don't even see it as an issue.

[_______________Hypos]

I think that FunCom doesn't want to publish the rules because they want to maintain the right to change them on a whim. Note, for instance, the change to specials in the most recent patch.

Ever since the game went live, it's been obvious to everyone (including FunCom) that it wasn't perfect. In a game this complex, the odds are that it will never be perfect and will require never-ending tweaking. If they published how a game mechanic works (like they were finally forced to do with over equipping), then it's almost impossible for them to change it later.

[Skymarshal]

Yes, also, I think that one point is that you shouldn't know the depest darkest secrets of a game, if you haven't spent all the time and put in the work to figure it out like some of us have.


Mystery or no mystery it helps seperate the good players from the bad ones.


~sky

[secondkenlon]

*shrug*

MMORPG makers all seem to think that we'll all up and leave if we know how everything works.

I really don't know why.

[Gene13]

The official answer, or at least the answer I got when asking about this is:
It's up to the players to figure out how the game works. I'ts part of the gaming experience and many players think this is the most enjoyable part of the game.

Personally I think not knowing the rules sucks ass. Guess I'm just lazy.

One of the things I asked about was dualwielding. This was quite some time ago and they just recently fixed it so a player can actually see what the hell is going on without using a stopwatch and a couple of levels of IP.

Bottom line: Not knowing enhances your gaming experience (i.e. as long as you don't know, you'll try to find out and stay with the game).

/G13

[_______________Hypos]

I have to agree with Gene, it sucks ass. The problem with being forced to figure out the rules is that using your intellect is illegal in this game.

For instance, if you figure out how to use poor mob pathing to your advantage - that's an exploit. How do you know it's an exploit? Well, you just have to know.

This is just one example of players trying to figure out how best to play the game and ending up doing things in a way the designers hadn't intended. How do you know it's not what was intended? You don't - because they won't tell you what the intent is. So you end up cheating simply because you're trying to figure out the rules - exactly as you were told.

[____________Hannibal]

"If they published how a game mechanic works (like they were finally forced to do with over equipping), then it's almost impossible for them to change it later."

This is one of the most horrible aspects of the game! Say you spend several hours test-firing at grey mobs to figure out some aspect of the mechanics of the game. After a couple hours you're pretty sure that you have whatever it is figured out. So you post it on the boards and you and several other people build their characters with that understanding in mind. Then, without telling anybody, Funcom alters the rules in a patch. Now suddenly you character is less effective and you don't even really know why! You have to go back and try and figure out what was changed that is gimping your character.

[______________Yazule]

yeah, it sucks, but I have to say

some of the best discussions on the boards I have ever had was compairing notes on the enforcer board with inits, ac rules, etc...

truly good communications and we all learnt something, and vets can pass on words of wisdom to newer players (like talking about capping in pvp and damage output vs AC).

makes me feel warm and fuzzy to help out someone who does not understand... wonder why funcom doesnt want to feel warm and fuzzy

[Arinia]

Knowing every intricacy of how something works makes it that much easier to exploit.

Example: PvP title formula.

[secondkenlon]

Knowing how things work means that it gets tested and bugs and exploits get *found*.


Security through secrecy isn't.

[nerfedBlackwi]

kenlon´s explanation the best.

remember being told that everything works as intended until the subject gets dragged up by dedicated people spending hours upon hours on some spreadsheets until they can prove there is an error and the problem getting noted and passed along to the dev team?

i knew you could

[Mercatura]

The phrase is "Security through Obscurity" and one only needs to look at 5000000 other programs (or anything computer-related) to know that it never ever works.

I understand them not explaning some things, but leaving all the real core machanics blind (inits, acs, etc) is just plain dumb.

[Jayde]

Do you think Funcom would have fixed half the item-related glitches if there weren't Database sites around to hold them to accountability?

Back when Auno was the only DB site around, and didn't show everything there was to show...Funcom denied there were initiative issues with people. Until Auno modified his scripts to show what init type it used, then they had to admit it.

With the current DB ripping methods I utilize--pioneered by MORB, Timber, and JB, and refined by all of us over time--there is little to nothing about any item that is NOT known to the average person who wants to look it up. When there is a problem, we can easily prove it...and FC probably hates us for it.

Without stuff like this, so many more errors would still be around... And there still exist some that I find on a day-to-day basis and forward over to FC.

Why should people have to spend huge chunks of their life doing this? (I know I have... lol) Because it's easier for FC that way. When you can't prove anything to them, they don't really have to fix it if they don't want to.

To the same token, if they told you game mechanics, they would have to also inform you of any changes. Unfortunately, FC makes minor (and major) changes to the mechanics on a regular basis...and hopes nobody figures it out. Not only does it keep the affected parties from crying foul, it keeps the community as a whole in the dark regarding the consistant changing of "the rules"--which is generally a big no-no in an RPG environment.

The less we know, the more power they have. That's why they don't make it easy for us to know.

-Jayde

[___________Evilspork]

Originally posted by Hypos
For instance, if you figure out how to use poor mob pathing to your advantage - that's an exploit. How do you know it's an exploit? Well, you just have to know.

They actually path now? Recently they've just been teleporting directly to where I am, even from 80m (or whatever visual range is) away as I try to haul ass in the opposite direction.

Originally posted by Jayde
Why should people have to spend huge chunks of their life doing this? (I know I have... lol) Because it's easier for FC that way. When you can't prove anything to them, they don't really have to fix it if they don't want to.

And even then, they still don't have to.

[Animosity]

My problem is not the secrecy involving the damage formulas, modifiers, and spawn rates.

But rather there is a growing number of bad no no rules that are rather hard to figure out.

There are many of us, who found at one point you could trade up your implants as high as your cash would go. Then that got called an exploit and "fixed." Many people left. The problem was that many of these people had figured out something, applied it and then told they were doing something illegal. It was a breach of trust for them, and if it had happened to me, I would have likewise felt disenfranchised, and fearful that my other gameplay would have been equally vunrable.

The nerf stick is hated because it makes it feel like the nerfed players are somehow breaking the rules. That somehow they were doing an illegal amount of damage, or behaving in a way that does not seem right. Lets think about this though, right now if my adv has discovered that a certain sword does an amazing amount of damage. There is nothing wrong in this discovery. Then if I wake up after a patch, and the sword has now been "corrected," I have been punished without fair warning, according to an invisible set of rules.

Suggestions:
Grandfather policies in. for those people with double uniques rings, let them keep them until they take them off.
Communication. Announce nerfs weeks ahead and judge the responce. If it is too great, back off, create some other balance, or just let us keep our gameplay.

Concepts:
Its your game, its our gameplay
Its your work, its our play
Laws have to be announced
Changes have to be announced.
keeping players is better than trying to gain players
engies need nerfing

[engelstein]

If you think a nerf is a punishment you're messed up. It's just that simple.

And it was so damn obvious that the infinite treatment exploits were just that...exploits. I mean, come ON. Just because you have some weak-ass excuse like "but we've been using it for so long" doesn't mean it's not exploiting. Pick another example.

Its your game, its our gameplay
Its your work, its our play

I hereby dub you "selfish *******" for somehow thinking that this supports your point.

[_______________Hypos]

Please, no more grandfather policies. I hate not being able to compete just because I didn't take advantage of a bug.

I didn't take advantage of the treatment clinic bug, so I spent sixty or eighty levels being unfavorably compared to people that had implants I couldn't achieve. That stunk. I never had an ELLTS but I was compared to every Ithaca using doc out there and had to live with being told had lousy I was because I couldn't do what they did.

Please never ever make me compete with people of my own breed and prof that have advantages I cannot possibly achieve. I do have sympathy for those that did things not knowing they were exploits. But I don't want the rest of the populace punished either.

[___________Evilspork]

Agreed, but not only are players just playing the game, how are they to know that a certain weapon or stacking implants isn't intended? I'm not being sarcastic, here. Funcom is a game company, in general there is trust that they know how to make games. Fairly recently we've found out they don't listen to anyone who has done work on the test server, serious bugs and exploits that are repeated over and over by the testers still make it to live. I haven't done any work on Test, but I know many people who do. Their frustration and confusion at Funcom's actions is apparent.

We all feel betrayed when they impliment something screwy, the Testers who already reported it moreso. Why they ignore the testers, I don't know. Are they in a rush to get the patch out? Do they really not read the forums? Are they just inept? It's another symptom of Funcom's lack of communication with their paying customers. If they *talked* to us when they did these things there might be less antimosity towards Funcom, but they don't, so there isn't.