Profession summation + - (Read)

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Yazule
2-4 choices is not a lot.

There are more then that. Enforcers actually have a lot of Viable weapon choices. I'll name a few off the top of my head.


Support Beam
Sledghammer
Native Alloy Staff (my personal fave because the reqs are so incredibly low, you can focus much more on your nano skills)
Lead Pipes (these are getting popular for some reason)
Rider Excecutioner
Rider Warblade
Longmoon
Katana
Haxor (they are pretty decent)

There has to be a few more I can't remember. There are a few Enforcers out there weilding Acroblades. Hehe.

[________________Miir]

Katanas are good up to about level 50.

Alloys have insane multi reqs.

Lead Pipes are only good for offhand because low multi req.

Haxors and Longmoons are decent because they are easy to overequip.


Over level 100, Sledgehammers, Riders and Beams are about the only viable enforcer weapons.

[________________Crin]

Oh well here we go again. Didn't really read the post. Once I hit the word "lazy", I knew where it was going.

How many times do people have to say this:

NOT ALL PROFESSIONS HAVE THE SAME ABILITY TO OVER-EQUIP!!!


My drive-by posting duties are done now, I'm outta here.

[________________Miir]

Longmoons are the 2he equiv to Support Beams. It's a very good weapon

QL200 Longmoon
2.5/2.5
44-460(101)



QL200 Beam
3.5/3.5
33-519(519)



Not even close in terms of effectiveness.....



High level Katanas are nicer then even a Mausser in damage

QL200 Katana
1015 2h Edge req
1.4/1.4
15-306(101)


QL200 Mausser
814 SMG req
1.0/3.0
7-342(250)

Compare it to a Katana with similar reqs:

QL160 Katana
817 2H Edge req
1.4/1.4
12-250(83)



We all know that low damage weapons are pretty much pointless over level 80. Katanas are low damage weapons.

Maussers are also pretty lousy at higher levels. Thats why you see most high level fixers using Suppressors or Alephs.

[________________Miir]

Due to the way AC damage absorption is calculated in AO, you cant plug numbers into a formula and come up with an accurate representation of average damage.

The lower damage and lower crit of the longmoon makes it much less effective when compared to a support beam.

Also, when Enforcer 2H blunt buffs are taken into account (no 2H edge buffs other than expertise exist in game), the player will have a much higher attack rating and therefor crit a lot more. That huge advantage cannot be discounted when doing a weapon comparison.


Same with Katanas, the AC absorption cripples low damage weapons like the Katana. I have used them. My in game experience with Katanas has shown that they are a completely ineffective weapon over level 50. Even a QL110 Katana is sub par at level 60.



Alloy Staves have high multi-req but not Insane

A QL100 Alloy has a multi req of close to 450.
A QL100 Baseball Bat has a multi req of around 240.




Your comparisons of the Aleph and the other SMGs fail to take into account that Init does not decrease recharge time. The Aleph has a recharge of 1. It's ROF is almost double that of a mausser or suppressor.

[________________Miir]

Have you actually used any of these weapons?


Your calculations look good on paper but in actual usage, they are so far off, it's not funny.

A Katana is more effective than a Support Beam?
You've got to be kidding me.



I have tested countless enforcer 2H weapons.
Their actual ingame effectiveness measures up like this:

Beam
Hammer
Rider Warblade
Longmoon
Haxor
Katana
Galahad

Over level 50, a Katanas don't even come close to the effectiveness of a Beam.

Beams outclass every 2H Edge weapon by so much it's not even funny.

----------------------------------------------------------------------


By your comparison, Longmoons would be the premier 2H enforcer weapon. Every Enforcer over level 100 would dismiss your findings as completely false.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Let me show you the major flaw in your calculations.

Katana: 41-842 damage. Crit is 1119
Mobs with 3000 AC: 41-542 damage. Crit is 819

Average hit before AC damage absorption is roughly 441.
Average damage after AC absorption is roughly 141 (not 291).

Average Damage over 30 Seconds with 600 Init: 5417

The real average damage per 30 seconds is 2622.





Longmoon: 44-1265 damage. Crit is 1543
Mobs with 3000 AC: 44-965 damage. Crit is 1243

Average hit before AC damage absorption is roughly 654.
Average damage after AC absorption is roughly 354 (not 504).


Average Damage over 30 Seconds with 600 Init: 5417

The real damage per 30 seconds is 3804.



Support Beam: 91-1427 damage. Crit is 2855
Mobs with 3000 AC: 33-1127 damage. Crit is 2555

Average hit before AC damage absorption is roughly 758.
Average damage after AC absorption is roughly 458 (not 608).


Average Damage over 30 Seconds with 600 Init: 4751

The real damage per 30 seconds is 3978.





Of course, if you're using QL200 weapons, a mobs AC is going to be much higher than 3000 and the parity between these weapons grows greater.

As I previously mentioned, a 2H blunt enforcer is going to have a much higher attack rating than a 2H edge enforcer, so the Beams dmg output increases even more.






>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Heh heh.. we've done a good job hijacking this thread, Lucid.



I assumed you calculated the average damage from min/max after AC dmg absorption.
The average damage should be calculated from the pre AC damage absorption figure. Then you should subtract the AC reduction.


This is the reason why quick, low damage weapons have an incredibly high percentage of minimum damage hits.


Your figures indicate that a Katana user would see hits in the full range of 41-542.
This is untrue.
The majority of their hits will minimum damage hits (dependant on level).


I'd be more than happy to demonstrte this for you. I have a level 77 Enforcer on Test who has tested a wide range of 2H edge weapons.

I have a QL100-105 Katana, Longmoon, Haxor, Rider Warblade, Burning Copper Katana and Galahad.

The most effective of all of those is the Rider... with the Longmoon coming in a close second.

When using the Katana, I can barely complete 50% missions.

[________________Miir]

Originally posted by Lucid Flow


You assumed wrong.

Katana: 41-842 damage. Crit is 1119 <~~ damage before AC

Mobs with 3000 AC: 41-542 damage. Crit is 819 <~~ Damage after AC

Average Damage over 30 Seconds with 600 Init: 5417 <~~ Average after AC

Are you figuring that the average hit after AC absorption would be 291?

The correct equation would be ((842/2) + 20.5) - 300 = 141.5




More accurately, mob AC would be around 5k if you are using a QL200 weapon.

Average damage before AC damage absorption on the katana would be 442 (142 after).

About 60% of the hits would be minimum damage hits for a Katana wielder.

[________________Miir]

Originally posted by Lucid Flow



Min damage is not effected by AC. That's why it's called min damage. You take 300 damage off the top end which gives you 41-542 and an average of 291.5

Over 50% of the hits will be for minimum (41) damage since the absorption is factored in after the hits. Every hit between 41 and 382 is reduced to 41.

This lowers average damage by a sizeable amount.










im really going this time

[__________WGMelchior]

No, he said that anything that is 382 or less before the AC reduction will be reduced to 41. Not lower than that.


And you can't just lower the max damage and recalculate the average damage from that. If this was true, then you would almost never hit for min damage.


That katana will actually be a -259 to 542 damage weapon. BUT, all hits under min damage (41) will still hit for min damage.

So the actual 'average' hit would be 141.5. This won't be your average damage per hit, but half of the hits are below this, and half are above. I *think* 37% of all hits will be min damage. There is also a 0.125% chance to hit for 542.


Note that your skill level isn't counted here.


Calculating the actual damage is a bit tricky, but it can be done, if you have enough time.

[__________WGMelchior]

Just a sidenote I want to add. Nothing major:


As long as the mob has any AC at all, your chance of hitting a min damage hit will always be higher than hitting any other possible amount of damage.

[__________WGMelchior]

Edited it a bit. Please re-read.


Yes, your new damage range will be 41-542. However, this damage range can NOT be used to calculate the actual damage you will deal, since the chance of getting any given number isn't the same for all numbers.


An example of how you actually count it.


First, take the unaltered damage range. Roll a hit on that. Say, we roll the 'average', which is right between 41 and 842. This is 441.5

Then, reduce 300 from that. This means 141.5. So, the reduced 'average' value will be just that. I think this is called the median value.

[__________WGMelchior]

Heh, post war! And yes, these things are really messed up sometimes.

Are there no programs for this?

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by WGMelchior
Then, reduce 300 from that. This means 141.5. So, the reduced 'average' value will be just that. I think this is called the median value.

I stand corrected.

The % of the time you hit for min damage was what I never accounted for. What a horrible AC system.

[__________WGMelchior]

Okay, got it down. Just note that this is WITHOUT crits, evades and skill bonuses, so this isn't something you can see ingame. Still, you can compare how normal damage will be between different weapons.



Got the actual average damage for a katana down to:

198,0436954






Since the actual formulas for the other stuff isn't 'officially released' yet, I can't count that in at the moment. I might make a spreadsheat later on though.

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by WGMelchior
Okay, got it down. Just note that this is WITHOUT crits, evades and skill bonuses, so this isn't something you can see ingame. Still, you can compare how normal damage will be between different weapons.

Got the actual average damage for a katana down to:

198,0436954

Since the actual formulas for the other stuff isn't 'officially released' yet, I can't count that in at the moment. I might make a spreadsheat later on though.

You guys are correct anyway, including Miir. Sorry for my rampant posting. At least I can say when I am wrong.

The way I figured it out was calculated modified damage then subtracted the 40% of the time when you hit for min. That equalled 141, the same as above. The 40% of the time min damage thing was where I wasn't accounting for.

I've decided the AC system in AOR sucks.

[________________Miir]

Thanks WGM.

Lucid, you finally see my biggest pet peeve with the combat system of AO.


If they could change the AC absorption to a percentage, it would make weapons like Katanas viable at all levels.


I hate cookiie cutter characters and I have been trying hard to find viable alternatives to the hammer/beam enforcer and the novaflow soldier.

This one change would open up so many possibilities for character customisation.

[__________Lucid Flow]

Originally posted by Miir
Thanks WGM.

Lucid, you finally see my biggest pet peeve with the combat system of AO.


If they could change the AC absorption to a percentage, it would make weapons like Katanas viable at all levels.


I hate cookiie cutter characters and I have been trying hard to find viable alternatives to the hammer/beam enforcer and the novaflow soldier.

This one change would open up so many possibilities for character customisation.

If in some way AC was modified before you hit the mob directly taking damage off the top of your amount and whatever is left over is your damage range (the way I was saying it before) there are a lot of weapons that would become more viable.

The way it is now, it's sort of a double whammy.

[______________Yazule]

OMG miiir has 8 posts in a row.. wtf! hehe

[___________MrTeatime]

Just a small note to Lucid Flow:

I play a crat, I'm level 90 - with ql 105 elite armor (no buffs from other people, yeah I know elite sucks but it looks cool), a ql 103 O.E.T Co. Jess pistol (wrangled on, only use it for the +20 int/psy).

My droid is orange to me, I don't use masteries or wrangles to summon it.

I can solo ql 105-110 missions. True, I can't charm red mobs, I can't fear red mobs, but I can root, slow and mez them. I kill orange mobs for a living, solo. It's not that hard, all I need to do is charm one orange mob then I'm set.

I could use mocham's gift, wrangles etc. to get a high level droid and use better nano programs, but personally I don't think it's worth the effort. I agree however that overequipping should be stopped if it ruins the game, but upping other professions to a good level would be nicer. Without a hard cap people will overequip as much as possible though, so it may be necessary.