Small Guilds - I MEAN SMALL

[Greybear]

Can someone answer a few questions, just to make sure I see one of the reasons that small orgs are bad.


I posted about it earlier but since Im not in an Org. I may very well be wrong.


Friends get together, they form and org. One guy, the leader now logs off and on all his alts and has and officer accept them into the org. Then they drp from the org, leaving the 1 player and all his Alts as Org leader and followers.

Can this happen?

If so, wash rinse repeat for the friends.

Once this is done, the Leader can now use the Org Bank as a personal Twinking bank for items? NoDrops? Uniques? Money?

Can this happen?


IF this isnt the case, other than it just being a good group of friends, small orgs should be ok.

If it is the case, then a small org found to be 1 person or account should be banned(If not banned, then this isnt an EXPLOIT and if possible, anyone want to help me?). Any org having multiply toons from the same account should have to have a minimum of say 30 Toons. I can see where if your in a good org, ud like to make new toons to play with the same peeps.

[Argulace]

Originally posted by Jynne
Want to control who's on your 'leaders chat' to keep out "spies" and "babies"?

Get a bot

I'm sure your valuable insite to this matter would be important, except that your not a leader and apparently have no understanding of what happens IN leader chat.

I'm confused, did you post just to see your name in the thread, or did you have something constructive to say?

I'm not trying to control anything, I'm trying to make leader chat useful, like it once was back when only leaders started organizations.

Not when level 200's started making organizations to park their characters or have access to leader chat for a single individual.

Remember the sleeve craze? Omni going clan and making a guild to harrass the Clan while they were temporarily clan to install sleeves.

You think thats right? I certainly don't. Total BS. If I were a clan leader, I'd be completely beside myself with that situation.

[Cemetarygate]

Originally posted by Cz
Cemetarygate, where on Rubi-Ka did you pick up the notion that my questions had anything to do with people being intelligent or not? My personal opinion is that we have too many channels already, but that can't stop me from throwing out questions - sometimes perhaps poorly considered ones, but hey, I'm busy - to fuel a discussion.

Cz, you didn't say anything about intelligence. I brought intelligence into the discussion to state a point about seperation. Know it was never my intention to make it sound as though you brought it up. Perhaps poorly written on my part.

Originally posted by Cz
My concern was how to prevent those level 1 characters made by opposing players from listening in on the leaders' chat without forcing people to use bots or temporary chat groups. Maybe that is still the best option though?

I've seen higher than level ones change side just to gain access to the opposing channel. So, level is not the issue.

Originally posted by Cz
Unfortunately I don't think we store the data on how long a leader has led an organisation. And running an org for long doesn't mean you necessarily run it well. Use member count maybe? Total levels in the org?

Member count perhaps. I'll just stop kicking the inactive members out of my guild then, or start creating more alts.

"Total levels in the org?" I don't follow you on that one. As in add up all the levels of the members in an org?

Originally posted by Cz
Level is also what gives you titles and shows power, and thus status among the clans and in Omni-Tek, so role-playing wise it wouldn't be too off-target to use it like that.

Agreed to some extent. Level does show power and status, but so can a persons actions and words.

Originally posted by Cz
And though I agree that catering only to high level players isn't a good thing, the high levels should have benefits. If not, many people wouldn't play these games at all.

Access to higher armor, buffs, ncus, unique mobs and weapons. They do have benefits. (Especially now that alot of newer items have level/title requirements, and some of the unique mobs are unkillable by lower levels.)

Speaking of benefits, how about some benefits for the people who've logged in more time (/played)?

Anyway, I'm getting sidetracked.

I'm playing devils advocate to some of the ideas. But more importantly, leader chat is leader chat. Clan and Omni leaders should be free to talk amongst themselves, which is what leader chat was intended for. (Right?) Seperation amongst people are what guilds are for. Don't think we need to divide the leaders too and change the orginal concept of leader chat.

[gnuman]

It requires a full group of 6 to make a guild. So you can't make minimum requirements for amount of members bigger than that. And I think 6 people are quite okay. There are a lot difference on the big companies and the small companies, but nevertheless they have both the right to be there as they have in our every day society.

The problem however is the guilds made with 6 random people in backyard and then 3-5 of them leaving it right after. So minimum member-requirement should probably stay at 6. But what should happen if it drops below? Automatically disbanding it? What about the guildbank? Normally it just poofs if you disband a guild. That would probably be a bad idea if all the members of a guild some day makes mutiny(sp?) and leaves one by one and then the guild bank just poofs with a few hundred millions.

Level-restriction on the guildleader-channel isn't a good idea imo.

[Jynne]

Originally posted by Argulace_MoK


I'm sure your valuable insite to this matter would be important, except that your not a leader and apparently have no understanding of what happens IN leader chat.

I'm confused, did you post just to see your name in the thread, or did you have something constructive to say?

I'm not trying to control anything, I'm trying to make leader chat useful, like it once was back when only leaders started organizations.

Not when level 200's started making organizations to park their characters or have access to leader chat for a single individual.

Remember the sleeve craze? Omni going clan and making a guild to harrass the Clan while they were temporarily clan to install sleeves.

You think thats right? I certainly don't. Total BS. If I were a clan leader, I'd be completely beside myself with that situation.

Here's what I have constructive to say: If you're such a great leader, lead. You've identified a problem. Now, this is where a real leader would stop with the jaw-jawing, and implement a solution. If you really want to set standards for your leader chat, do so: set up your own omni leaders chatbot. Then you can decide who's allowed in and who isn't, you can appoint 'admins' or 'moderators' to deal with misbehavior, and you will have solved your own problem, and without torquing off other people.

Whatever sort of solution FC implements, if they ever do, will not be immediate and will not accomplish all your goals. Further, it will avoid causing hurt feelings and negative publicity for you, and be a great deal more efficient, if you were to set up one chatbot for interested omni leaders than if you were to run around telling people in small guilds to disband.

Look at that - it's almost the fabeled silver bullet solution. You're happy: You can turn off your regular leader chat and ignore what you don't like, while you use a moderated and controlled-entry chat bot for your so-serious leader business. People in small guilds-of-friends don't get forced to disband, and spies end up wasting their time.

Please remember this is a game, it's for having fun, not for being uber. And it's certainly not for being in control of others.

[Argulace]

Originally posted by Ashuras
IMO, this complain about is damm stupid.

My guild is a damm small one. Our active players hardly forms 2 full teams. But we have a lot of fun. It's a social guild.

Are u trying to suggest that we disband due to your PVP concerns ?

So wat if u limit the minimum guild size ? People who want to spy can easily get 100 alts to form a spy guild if they want to.

Size of a guild should not matter.

I don't understand all this concern about spying either. If u want to keep something secret, u should never use a "public" channel, but instead create one where u only invite people u trust.

Even if FC limits one faction per account (which I think is a dumb thing to do.. I hope they never do it) Those who are hardup on spying would definitely not mind paying for another account just for that. (I'm paying for an extra just for twinking).

Are you kidding? You should read the posts. I'm not suggesting that your two team guild is too small, nor am I suggesting that because of its size you are "less than" anyone else.

Scroll back, click on some of my examples there. You wont see a single org in that entire bunch that should exist for any legitimate reason.

Some of you are building this into something it isn't. For the 3rd time, i'm not saying ANYTHING bad about small guilds in general. My whole purpose here is versus guilds that aren't guilds. Friends or otherwise.

Nobody can convince me that 1-5 persons constitutes a useful guild. There is a reason guild structures have rank systems.

Nobody can convince me that any of the guilds I listed previously should exist.

Further, I think the whole point of this thread is getting lost somewhere between camelot and people commenting who have absolutely nothing to do with any aspect of leadership in the game.

The point is:

Whether or not the guild is small or large, there are leaders in this game who work their butts off to make the gaming experience for their perspective memberships as fulfilling as possible.

When events get scheduled, by FC or by guild leaders who wish to work on something with eachother, the leader chat is used to coordinate these things. As of about 7 months ago, this stopped. Because entirely too many disgruntled, anti-productive situations presented themselves. Such as many of the things I previously listed and many, many more.

Something has to be done about this.

Moving along to future issues which will present themselves with leader chat and the complete and total lack of any type of restrictions on "who" can make a guild.

Put yourself in the future with me for a moment. There is a war, there are many guilds fighting for land and resources. Some small guilds will have banded together (down with the machine!) and some larger guilds will be coordinating. Both omni and clan will be forced to get along in some ways and coordinate their efforts.

Lets present a scenario, shall we?

OT Faction Leaders: Argulace: Ok, I got clan coming in from our north and east sides. Can you guys move out behind the south side? When they get upon our front door you can swing around the East side and flank them heavily. It will chop them from your territory as well and we will finish closing the door with the heavy battle group from their north.
OT Faction Leaders: Randomn00b: hey, anyone know where i can get one of those wen things that all the others have?
OT Faction Leaders: Randomn00b2: I got one, i'm uber! AHHAHA, OMG!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOO My GUN fell off, this is going to take an hour to get it back on...
OT Faction Leaders:"Whoever": Ok Arg, but if we do this your going to provide us some serious guards for the next week or so because this is sticking our necks out quite a bit.
OT Faction Leaders:Argulace: We will certainly see that some resources come your way for this favor.
__________________________

Clan Faction Leaders:"TheSpyGuy": LOL, umm lets not take the north push on this one, I know whats up. Lets go south where they are completely vonerable, we can get in without much resistance there and they will be forced to take it back.
Clan Faction Leaders:Whoever: how do you know?
Clan Faction Leaders:"TheSpyGuy": (Paste of our conversation from OT Faction Leaders)
Clan Faction Leaders:Whoever: HAHAHAHAHA, thats funny.
Clan Faction Leaders:Someone else: no its not, they are doing the same thing to us.

Tell me something, which part of this is agreeable to you?

I dont like a single bit of it. And while it can be prevented by using private chat, there are going to be other battles happening at the same time and OTHER leaders will need to know what we are doing as well, so that they can react and plan for the defense of their own territories.

I'm not backing down from this, something needs to be done. I don't think anyone will disagree that the current situation is not acceptable, whether or not my alternatives are worthy is completely irrelivant.

Arg

[Argulace]

Originally posted by Jynne
Here's what I have constructive to say: If you're such a great leader, lead. You've identified a problem. Now, this is where a real leader would stop with the jaw-jawing, and implement a solution. If you really want to set standards for your leader chat, do so: set up your own omni leaders chatbot. Then you can decide who's allowed in and who isn't, you can appoint 'admins' or 'moderators' to deal with misbehavior, and you will have solved your own problem, and without torquing off other people.

Whatever sort of solution FC implements, if they ever do, will not be immediate and will not accomplish all your goals. Further, it will avoid causing hurt feelings and negative publicity for you, and be a great deal more efficient, if you were to set up one chatbot for interested omni leaders than if you were to run around telling people in small guilds to disband.

Look at that - it's almost the fabeled silver bullet solution. You're happy: You can turn off your regular leader chat and ignore what you don't like, while you use a moderated and controlled-entry chat bot for your so-serious leader business. People in small guilds-of-friends don't get forced to disband, and spies end up wasting their time.

Please remember this is a game, it's for having fun, not for being uber. And it's certainly not for being in control of others.

LOL! Hurt feelings? Who's feelings are hurt? Your totally blowing this out of proportion, click on some links I put in previous threads then tell me how this is going to hurt anyones feelings.

I've said (this being the 4th time) this isn't about killing off small guilds, its about getting rid of some people from leader chat who are disruptive, spying or flat out just there to show off.

Every single post you have made is in some way a personal attack or flame about the validity of this thread or me personally. I will nolonger respond to your replies.

Arg

[Jynne]

Originally posted by Argulace_MoK


LOL! Hurt feelings? Who's feelings are hurt? Your totally blowing this out of proportion, click on some links I put in previous threads then tell me how this is going to hurt anyones feelings.

I've said (this being the 4th time) this isn't about killing off small guilds, its about getting rid of some people from leader chat who are disruptive, spying or flat out just there to show off.

Every single post you have made is in some way a personal attack or flame about the validity of this thread or me personally. I will nolonger respond to your replies.

Arg

The only things you've said to me are personal flames and/or attacks on my credibility. How did you expect me tone my replies?

Flames aside, the crux of my point is that you can address the problems - and they are problems, though we disagree about their importance and degree - exactly as you would like, and without waiting for whatever change procedure that Funcom goes through to implement new features, with a chatbot.

You could even consider it as a temporary solution, until FC can do something, but I would be willing to bet money that if Funcom implements anything in this vein at all, it still wouldn't be satisfactory, and you'd want to use a chatbot anyway.

And with that chatbot the super-tiny guilds become, effectively, irrelevant to you, no?

[Darkbane]

I don't think there is very much FC can easily do about this. I agree, a chatbot is your best bet, or a temp chat group as a quick-and-dirty solution.

Remember, neutral guilds don't even have a leaders channel, and I doubt they miss it.

There are other ways to communicate, and is you use an insecure channel for matters of great importance, then don't come running when things don't work out...

[Mercatura]

Hehe arg, you were a n00b once too

I know the person who taught you all how to use org chips (those things sucked, took 12 tries to get it right) and was there when Mok was formed at the EntBB with the first 10.

Too bad hardly plays anymore except when I bug on AIM for buffs I can't find at 5am.

My point was making people pick factions on accounts for any reason is a Bad Thing™ and wouldn't solve the "problem" anyways.

Personally I think 1-100 and 100-200 leader chat would clear up a lot of spam without making too many channels. From what I see, usually guild leaders are at least the avg level, often much higher.

If theres still yahoos in 100-200, pretty soon you'll be able to attack their towers, right?

Cz, we could really use some built-in support for bots..like letting them break past the spam protection and keeping them "online" though quick lds with a buffer of sorts.

[________________Crin]

What is really needed is for guilds to be able to form alliances that are supported by the game engine. The alliance could have its own chat channel that is by invitation only. Now if someone is smart enough to create a spy character that gets invited into an alliance, then it's just good role-playing.

In general, more decision making needs to be placed on the players instead of having the game mechanics automatically decide. It would promote role-playing and build tighter communities.

[misterretro]

Originally posted by Crin
What is really needed is for guilds to be able to form alliances that are supported by the game engine. The alliance could have its own chat channel that is by invitation only. Now if someone is smart enough to create a spy character that gets invited into an alliance, then it's just good role-playing.

Because there are so many USELESS channels in game...ummm...OT Seeking Team channels anyone? I don't see FC adding more channels, and I get the feeling that if we want to make an alliance we're going to have to bring in our own bots.

[Darkbane]

If its just the leaders in an alliance, then a simple temp group would be entirely sufficient, though if you could create a semi-permanent named private channel with a password, that would be even better - just log when it was last accessed and purge any that haven't been used in 24 hours on a regular basis.

[Sheffy]

I didn't read this entire thread, but my guild started off very small (6 people, wouldn't you know it) and stayed under 10 people for a few months. Then we slowly grew. Then we merged with another smallish guild and continued to grow.

Look at our guild now.

Even if they don't grow into a large guild, let them enjoy the game their own way.

I know that wasn't the main point of your post, Arg, but your opening sentence jumped out at me

--Tsk

[_____________Lamonia]

No wonder the right wing is growing strong in the world - so many idiots thinking they are uber.

And CZ seeing your lame attempt to propose some level restrictions on CLC - only have to words - grow up.

BTB----->NOW!

Lamonia

President Anvil - a small clan - hehe - unique items - up yours dewd .!.

[Cz]

Originally posted by Cemetarygate
Cz, you didn't say anything about intelligence. I brought intelligence into the discussion to state a point about seperation. Know it was never my intention to make it sound as though you brought it up. Perhaps poorly written on my part.

Probably poorly read on my part too.

Originally posted by Lamonia
No wonder the right wing is growing strong in the world - so many idiots thinking they are uber.

And CZ seeing your lame attempt to propose some level restrictions on CLC - only have to words - grow up.

I just asked what the players preferred. If asking the players' opinion is being childish, I'm not sure what you consider to be childish or mature. I personally don't consider calling other people idiots as very mature.

Read the social guidelines, please.

[Treonaut]

They forget what makes this game work. Soon there will be two clans or maybe one with all towers. Everything has gravity towards maybe 6 groups of people in this game today. I am feeling it and don't like it.

[______________Jerrak]

Originally posted by Argulace_MoK


A team of 6 killing tara who are not participating in the loot system for tara, whatever that may be from which ever side your from are considered one of two things.

a) Ninja's.
b) Leeches.

The point is, that guild of 6 couldn't take tara on their own. Which really amounts to a team of 6, which is a different story all together.

I agree that teams of people who like eachother should be common inside guilds.

Take for example a few guilds I could mention who fit the criteria I'm concerned about. As follows:

http://www.ymera.com/1/A_Neutral.html
http://www.ymera.com/1/Tiffany_n_Co.html
http://www.ymera.com/1/Servants_of_Twilight.html
http://www.ymera.com/1/The_One.html
http://www.ymera.com/1/Star.html
http://www.ymera.com/1/Vandelmar_Consortium.html
http://www.ymera.com/1/Nerfcom_you_n...y_nerf_it.html
http://www.ymera.com/2/The_Sacred_Six.html
http://www.ymera.com/2/PornStarZ.html
http://www.ymera.com/2/The_Cult_of_Vashtar.html
http://www.ymera.com/2/Students_of_OTESL.html

Someone tell me why a single one of these should exist.

Maybe 5 was an arbitrary number. Maybe not.

It used to take 5 people or so to make a guild, whats the point in making one if you dont intend to do something with it?

I think the pressure I'm trying to put on here is more directed at people who log in to AO, make a guild not knowing a darn thing about the game then spam leader chat with things like:

1. Loan me money to buy a yalm.
2. Anyone have "this item or that?" (If i wanna trade, i'll listen to trade channels, not leader chat)
3. !#$@ @#! !@ #!@#$!@# !#@! my !#$!ing (whatever) fell off, how can i get it back on?
4. Can I get a wrangle from someone?
5. Anyone have 80+ treatment?
6. How do i make money? (If you dont know how, you certainly have no business making a guild)
7. etc, etc, etc.

About a year ago, there was a meeting. A meeting on plot related items and as usual it drew the finest people. Azazzel was there to wreck the meeting, I was there to yell and scream about amnesty, Boci was there i believe, others were there to talk about the growing Cyborg problem... Then there were others there who had 3-5 people in their orgs, they were level 20ish and all they wanted to do was yabber about stuff not related to leading ANYONE for ANY reason.

I happen to know one of those persons, who didnt talk much was a member of a very high level Clan organization.

I'm hearing a lot of positive things about an alliance that has formed. At first I wasn't interested, nor was our membership because it seems like every time someone trys to organize something, another person works their rear off to dissasemble it.

I am NOT participating in any plot related activity till someone tells me there are no persons in guild leader chat who have clan characters. You wanna spy? Do it the hard way.

Everything upon everything being implemented in this game is pushing people to come together in guilds. Large and small it makes absolutely no difference. I don't say, "those guys suck" because they have 20 members. I definately have no delusion that MoK is better than anyone else because we have 180. What I do think, is that LEADER CHAT, is LEADER CHAT. And if you want a social channel you should push for one.

Maybe FC could put a social channel application in the game. You apply for and are automatically approved for a "sub group" chat system, which allows the client to automatically create a connection to your favorate channels when you log on.

How hard is that?

Whatever happens, this friends using guild leader chat thing has to go before the booster pack or there will be serious issues concerning guilds working together.

People say, if you wanna talk strategy make a channel? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Whats the name of the leader channel? Why do they call it that? So you can tell me to go make a leader channel?

Whatever your smokin, keep it away from me.

Edit: Last comment not intended to insult the person who posted the above quote. It was however intended to insult those who think its ok for me to have to make a side channel to discuss things with leaders while they use leader chat to socialize and spy with their opposite side alt.

Arg

I stand by my belief that small guilds should exist, but its clearer to me where your coming from. Im still a little unclear (call me dumb) as to why you think guilds of 6 people shouldnt exist. Im going to admit that im not the smartest kid, but i dont think im seeing the whole picture.

[_____________Rolller]

Everyone pays the same amount to play this game let them do what they want. They just need to break up the leader chan according to number of players / average level.

Something simular to how the shopping channels are broken up. Small guilds do different things than high level guilds.

One generic channel would be nice though.

[Cemetarygate]

Originally posted by Argulace_MoK
Also tell me why someone with clan characters can be in Omni Leader chat. Also tell me why someone with Omni characters can be in Clan leader chat?!?!

These problems are serious.

You should not be able to create an org if your account has an opposite side character on it.

Originally posted by Argulace_MoK
Lets present a scenario, shall we?

OT Faction Leaders: Argulace: Ok, I got clan coming in from our north and east sides. Can you guys move out behind the south side? When they get upon our front door you can swing around the East side and flank them heavily. It will chop them from your territory as well and we will finish closing the door with the heavy battle group from their north.
OT Faction Leaders: Randomn00b: hey, anyone know where i can get one of those wen things that all the others have?
OT Faction Leaders: Randomn00b2: I got one, i'm uber! AHHAHA, OMG!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOO My GUN fell off, this is going to take an hour to get it back on...
OT Faction Leaders:"Whoever": Ok Arg, but if we do this your going to provide us some serious guards for the next week or so because this is sticking our necks out quite a bit.
OT Faction Leaders:Argulace: We will certainly see that some resources come your way for this favor.
__________________________

Clan Faction Leaders:"TheSpyGuy": LOL, umm lets not take the north push on this one, I know whats up. Lets go south where they are completely vonerable, we can get in without much resistance there and they will be forced to take it back.
Clan Faction Leaders:Whoever: how do you know?
Clan Faction Leaders:"TheSpyGuy": (Paste of our conversation from OT Faction Leaders)
Clan Faction Leaders:Whoever: HAHAHAHAHA, thats funny.
Clan Faction Leaders:Someone else: no its not, they are doing the same thing to us.

Tell me something, which part of this is agreeable to you?

I dont like a single bit of it. And while it can be prevented by using private chat, there are going to be other battles happening at the same time and OTHER leaders will need to know what we are doing as well, so that they can react and plan for the defense of their own territories.

I'm not backing down from this, something needs to be done. I don't think anyone will disagree that the current situation is not acceptable, whether or not my alternatives are worthy is completely irrelivant.

Spies make the game fun and interesting. Having secret meetings to hide from the spies is fun and interesting. Setting up 'team group' channels for secure communications is fun and interesting. Finding the spies and exposing them for who they are is fun and interesting.

Alot of this is 'cloak & dagger' for certain people, something they wouldn't normally be able to do in real life. Gives them added enjoyment to the game. Do you really want to take all that away from those people?

As far as one person guilds. They should disband automatically when they fall below the number of members required to form a guild. A 'guild leader' constitutes leadership of a guild. If there is no guild, then there is no need for a 'guild leader'. Hence why the guild should automatically disband.