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Thread: Multiboxing and balance

  1. #1

    Multiboxing and balance

    If you're going to allow input broadcasting to stay in the game, at the very least balance the game around the fact that it will exist.

    One example I will give you:

    Garuk's Improved Viral Assault
    75% NR Check
    Instant cast
    Guaranteed cap on most targets

    Aimed shot is the other obvious candidate

    In a game where input broadcasting is legal, things like this should not exist. Yes it will hurt the NTs who are playing with one account, but that's the consequence you have to deal with for allowing this.

    When you create uncounterable play, it's taken advantage because people like to win. When this uncounterable play requires an unreasonable time and money investment, you will see the people who don't choose to multibox leave the game.

    Removal of assist in PvP was a small shuffle in the right direction, however Multiboxers will still have an extreme advantage as all their characters on follow will be tab targeting the same target. That's not something separate players can emulate as we are all from different locations and 99% of the time not on follow.

    I left the game at the dawn of multiboxing, most of the bigger clan pvp orgs either quit or stopped bothering with NW and I come back 3 years later to see that real players have just been replaced with people willing to fund multiple accounts because they've been given the green light.

    FC is going bust anyway, at least for the few months this game will stay alive: make it fun again to pvp (for everyone).

  2. #2
    Everyone except the professions that automatically lose when they try to play legit, you mean? This post seems to set up an ultimatum, like, we have to either fully allow multiboxing and nerf things that people need to effectively play one character, or we have to allow one client connection per IP address right away and ban banks and buff slaves.

  3. #3
    The preferred method of course would be to ban input broadcasting, however after 3 years this still isn't done we have to look at an alternative.

  4. #4
    I don't know what they can do. Not allow any hooking or injection? If I had to play without Clicksaver, I think I'd quit. I've rolled and banked most of my random buffing gear I guess at this point, so maybe I'd be okay. Maybe. But I think that precludes AOIA. I think it would kill remote GMI lookup bots. I don't know what else off hand.

  5. #5
    It will have to be policed manually, like EVE is. However with the low population and the extremely obvious way MBing is done (5 toons on follow on one character, damage logs can show simultaneous attacking within milliseconds etc) it's not that hard.

    Exceptions such as clicksaver, aoia and GMI can be allowed if it's enforced by a warm body and not code.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsuniko View Post
    When you create uncounterable play, it's taken advantage because people like to win.
    You're not even remotely close to the skill and knowledge levels required to make such claims.

  7. #7
    I have the skills and knowledge to reply on this thread and if im fc I wouldn't allow players to use 3rd softwares to gain upperhand. Because using 3rd softwares for advantage in videogames, especially internet based competitions like pvp, pvm epeen and stuff is cheating according to my family
    . . . everything in creation is impermanenT

  8. #8
    This will not happen. NT's have been nerfed enough already for ridiculous enough reasons.

    It would also, AGAIN, not fix anything. The MB'ers would switch to their agents and cap you with perks/as/fling nice and easily. Are you going to get rid of every high damage attack in the game because you can't do tactical gameplay?

    Said it before and I'll say it again. GO SEE HOW PEOPLE KILL MULTIBOXERS IN OTHER GAMES. Learn. Absorb the knowledge. Form a group, use that knowledge to make sure MB'ing isn't an advantage anymore. People do it every damned day on WoW and even on EVE (where multiboxing isn't supposed to exist but yet.. it does).

    Don't come trying to further nerf NT's. It's enough that Offensive Focus was reduced to near-useless garbage.
    Michizure is love, Michizure is life.
    --
    Dywas - 220/30/70 Neutral Nanomage Nano-Technician
    Caramela - 220/30/70 Neutral Solitus Doctor
    Desejos - 220/30/?? Neutral Atrox Enforcer
    Gretchenross - 220/30/?? Neutral Opifex Shade
    Bizzle - 220/30/70 Neutral Atrox Soldier

    --<3 Professional love--
    * Aiken pets Lazy on the head. Sure it is, you keep telling self that
    <Aiken> such a cutesy clammer aren't you *cheekpinch*
    <Lazy>
    <Lazy> viva la revolucion
    * Dywas decides to walk away from the soon-to-be sexytime
    <Aiken> lol Dywas, Id make a man of him
    <Lazy> Dywas, i'd go gay for aiken. no lie

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalBath View Post
    This will not happen. NT's have been nerfed enough already for ridiculous enough reasons.

    It would also, AGAIN, not fix anything. The MB'ers would switch to their agents and cap you with perks/as/fling nice and easily. Are you going to get rid of every high damage attack in the game because you can't do tactical gameplay?

    Said it before and I'll say it again. GO SEE HOW PEOPLE KILL MULTIBOXERS IN OTHER GAMES. Learn. Absorb the knowledge. Form a group, use that knowledge to make sure MB'ing isn't an advantage anymore. People do it every damned day on WoW and even on EVE (where multiboxing isn't supposed to exist but yet.. it does).

    Don't come trying to further nerf NT's. It's enough that Offensive Focus was reduced to near-useless garbage.
    I second that.

    I mostly stay out of the multiboxing discussions, but I will not allow solutions to it to compromise the individual player's experience. This is not a problem with Agents or NT's. It's a problem that Funcom has to continue to look into and deal with another way.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Vinkera View Post
    I second that.

    I mostly stay out of the multiboxing discussions, but I will not allow solutions to it to compromise the individual player's experience. This is not a problem with Agents or NT's. It's a problem that Funcom has to continue to look into and deal with another way.
    There are plenty of methods to adjust a prof or adjust mechanics that will directly affect the force multiplier of MB without adversely affecting the individual's experience.

    I listed several ways in the MB thread I started, which I don't have the link to, but some easy ways to directly tone down the overall effect of an MB is to simply build negative feedback loops for damage, or negative feedbacks for damage done over a short period.

    For example, here are three ways to directly lower the net effect of MBing multiples of the same profession with the sole intent of instantaneous killing - which we all agree is what is killing the game.

    * while garuk's dot is running on target, target is immune from other nuke's in Garuk's line

    * introduce emergency nanobot defences which activate anytime a player takes more than 10/20/30/40/50% damage i.e. basically pop a NS2-100% reflect for a very short period to completely negate any incoming damage for a short period, like 0.5/1/1.5/2/2.5/3 seconds - which would give the toon a reasonable window to launch mitigation measures

    * introduce passive special blockers which activate any time a special lands and last for 0.2s, essentially limiting the number of capping specials landing on any player at any time subsequent to a special landing

    None of these would significantly affect an individual's experience. sure - maybe you can't spam fling/AS/burst/FA instantaneously anymore, but that's a good thing.

  11. #11
    Garuk doesn't have a DoT and doesn't require one.. not sure what you meant with that.

    The emergence nanobot defence option is nice but would make High healing/High defense characters nearly immortal.. and it would make teams of those even closer to immortality. That's as bad as relying on alphas for PvP..

    The passive special blockers with a set duration can be easily bypassed by a multiboxer (250ms delay between each AS or nuke and you're golden) while real teams get screwed over. Nope, not good.

    I still think going overboard with reducing the effectiveness of damage in a team will not just harm their ability to kill but it will also empower smarter multiboxers that have a team based on something other than damage (such as yours, McK). It might even make them unstoppable if we go waaaay out there on the concept, since right now the right team can blob you down. If they can't focus your characters down carefully they'll either have to give up or slowly die.

    On the individual experience.. if some other NT uses Garuk's on someone I shouldn't have mine's effectiveness toned down. I get that the current state of "spam high damage things to win" is not ideal but it's sure better than trivializing offensive perks/nanos/specials.
    Same goes for when I'm on my Agent or Soldier or Fixer. I want my actions to count in group PvP.

    This is a tricky issue to solve in the current way things happen in AO. If we're moving away from Alpha damage then expect defence to be toned down as well.. which will probably impact PvM in some uncalled for way and disturb the majority of either casual pvp/pvm or 100% pvm players. Not a good way to go.

    Retooling things in a way that makes PvP more lengthy but still a proper challenge while making sure the force multiplier MB'ing brings can be made ineffective is either extremely hard or simply impossible.
    Tactics are a better way to get a MB'er off the field but I see a lot of people unwilling to learn those and I sure won't be forcing it into anyone's brain.

    The other way to fight multiboxers is to turn the NW PvP into something else and blatantly disallow multiboxing there! There's tons of ways to design even-numbered, monitorable encounters. And it's easy to take a clue from the market leaders on what "modes" one can use. Domination (like our BS's), Siege/Structure Defence (MMO meets MOBA.. or SMITE.. something along those lines), Capture the Flag, Arena..
    The possibilities here are huge and a mix between encounter "types" can be reached that favours individual team gameplay and is much more disruptive to any kind of multiboxer out there, be it an offensive, defensive or balanced set of characters.
    If the blatant disallowing of multiboxing is enforced then the first multiboxer to join in gets a week off from the game and has to go do something other than the revamped NW with his box. Repeat offenders end up getting a shiny permaban.
    It's also much simpler to police than tower field battles as it would be designed with it in mind.

    In the end, all it takes it to make individual movement on the field matter.. simple example to this is the classic MOBA gamemode where there's 3 lanes, 10 players. A good multiboxer can maybe control one lane for some time (just 2 characters), but if he brings 5 he's done for.
    Last edited by DigitalBath; Oct 20th, 2015 at 01:49:22.
    Michizure is love, Michizure is life.
    --
    Dywas - 220/30/70 Neutral Nanomage Nano-Technician
    Caramela - 220/30/70 Neutral Solitus Doctor
    Desejos - 220/30/?? Neutral Atrox Enforcer
    Gretchenross - 220/30/?? Neutral Opifex Shade
    Bizzle - 220/30/70 Neutral Atrox Soldier

    --<3 Professional love--
    * Aiken pets Lazy on the head. Sure it is, you keep telling self that
    <Aiken> such a cutesy clammer aren't you *cheekpinch*
    <Lazy>
    <Lazy> viva la revolucion
    * Dywas decides to walk away from the soon-to-be sexytime
    <Aiken> lol Dywas, Id make a man of him
    <Lazy> Dywas, i'd go gay for aiken. no lie

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    For example, here are three ways to directly lower the net effect of MBing multiples of the same profession with the sole intent of instantaneous killing - which we all agree is what is killing the game.
    The issue is, there are plenty of people who are completely uninterested in PVP and are therefore largely unaffected by multiboxing in any form. If changes are made to individual professions and even weapon specials, you are negatively affecting individual players in one way or another, and that's not fair to them.

    Again, the solutions to this are the mechanics behind multiboxing in PVP. If we start having changes made that hurt the individual, then they will cause more harm than good, as you're effectively pissing off everyone and not just the intended targets. As paying to play a game can be considered a service, Funcom is probably well aware that "fixing" one issue is simply not worth pissing off everyone.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalBath View Post
    This is a tricky issue to solve in the current way things happen in AO. If we're moving away from Alpha damage then expect defence to be toned down as well.. which will probably impact PvM in some uncalled for way and disturb the majority of either casual pvp/pvm or 100% pvm players. Not a good way to go.
    I completely disagree. This is the ideal scenario. PVM has not been hard for years because an egregious emphasis has been put on AAD and HP modifiers; and that in turn has made PVP a clown fest, as it's become a two-horse race to both find ways to beat the other player's defense score and in turn find ways to get defense high enough to resist said offensive tactics, creating level 220 gods with utterly ridiculous offense and defense ratings that leave lesser-equipped ones COMPLETELY neutralized due to, again, practically 70% of the equipment used in the game giving such modifiers. Add in the ridiculousness of the perk system and it's really any wonder that we're finally finding out just what kinds of effects this can have when people with the right mindset try to exploit it for their own benefit.

    At no point will this game ever have any semblance of its old former glory with the mechanics it has now. There is practically no challenge in PVM to speak of, now, as the game doesn't even technically start until 220; and PVP has been rocked silly by AimedShot and NT nukes that deal instant damage on demand, on top of hotkeys that allow you to fire off a theoretical infinite amount of perks at an infinitesmally small window of checking target defenses. We've been beating around the bush about this for years, and it's not going to go anywhere at all until we finally realize that we've been playing a massively flawed game ever since Alien Invasion.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalBath View Post
    Garuk doesn't have a DoT and doesn't require one.. not sure what you meant with that.
    ya sorry I don't actually play right now, and haven't done PVP at all since 18.7 really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digitalbath
    The other way to fight multiboxers is to turn the NW PvP into something else and blatantly disallow multiboxing there!
    Yes, or even simply make it more objectives based, or just make venues that require a team of 3/4/5/6 to be functioning separately with obvious, clear cut objectives which cut out the "spam specials and kill everything" approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digitalbath
    There's tons of ways to design even-numbered, monitorable encounters. And it's easy to take a clue from the market leaders on what "modes" one can use. Domination (like our BS's), Siege/Structure Defence (MMO meets MOBA.. or SMITE.. something along those lines), Capture the Flag, Arena..
    The possibilities here are huge and a mix between encounter "types" can be reached that favours individual team gameplay and is much more disruptive to any kind of multiboxer out there, be it an offensive, defensive or balanced set of characters.
    Totally.

    I'm simply hesitant to suggest something like this because of the [obvious?] manpower requirements.

    i.e. time to build in a functioning negative feedback loop, test, release = 1500 hours
    time to build a new BS with multiple, interesting objectives, new, attractive graphics, tweak professions for individual performance for balance, test, release = 75000 hours

    Quote Originally Posted by digitalbath
    In the end, all it takes it to make individual movement on the field matter.. simple example to this is the classic MOBA gamemode where there's 3 lanes, 10 players. A good multiboxer can maybe control one lane for some time (just 2 characters), but if he brings 5 he's done for.
    I play Dota 2 right now, and quite frankly, I'm loving it. AO just feels so one dimensional after playing Dota 2. Like, in a teamfight in AO, it's just so bland:

    Crat's job is to spam roots
    Doctor's job is to heal
    engi's job is to stay alive until the next tick of blockers
    Enforcers job is... well, no one really knows
    everyone else's job is to hammer the AS button every 11s

    Like, it's actually been exactly the same combat for 15 years. In 2001 it was exactly the same as it is today, and no matter what, you're always going to face the same debilitating, frustrating, gamebreakingly stupid issues:

    At 220: My side has x people your side has x+y people or vice versa, and is never fair.
    At TL1-TL5: My side has x twinks, your side has y twinks and is never fair

    In a game like Dota 2, you're guaranteed never to have a serious imbalance (as long as people don't disconnect), and because every game starts from scratch, you're always guaranteed equal footing.

    I've been calling for an equalization buff in BS for at least 5 years now, something that would go a VERY long way to equalization of the crazy imbalance imparted to participants of BS (i.e. 101 vs 150's - holy crap, or 151's vs 200's... lol who even though this would ever be reasonable)... and that's never made it into game yet despite it being probably the EASIEST fix to make BS a more equalized playing field... but even that... something which might take all of 12 man hours to build and test is not done.

    So, yea I learned to avoid suggesting stuff that, in my opinion, simply won't ever happen - not to say Michi isn't getting stuff done, he is, but w/e he's got his own priorities, and he is productive... but not in the area's that I am interested in.

  15. #15
    No need to nerf profs. Just get rid of instant meeps and those quick warps. There's plenty of ways to deal with mb's but it doesn't rly slow them down as they can instantly evac and get back.

  16. #16
    If I'm honest, the PVP in this game is completely uninteresting to me outside of friendly duels.

    If magically they released a spin-off of a MOBA mode, I'd be into it and I bet a lot of others would too. Some kind of controlled instance where the only thing in common with your regular toon is appearance, profession and breed. Everything else is similar to how MOBA's work. Start at level 1 and have a few profession based and breed based tools at your disposal as you level. Easy to balance and fun to play, but with AO's own spin on it.

    That will never happen, but it's a nice day dream.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  17. #17
    Just because PvP isn't interesting to you doesn't mean it isn't to anyone else.

    I would much rather have the other solution: ban input broadcasting. However as stated before after 3 years and this hasn't happened we need some other solution before this game truly just becomes multibox online and an individual just no longer matters (even in pvm, look at all the boxes farming raids there)

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    In a game like Dota 2, you're guaranteed never to have a serious imbalance (as long as people don't disconnect), and because every game starts from scratch, you're always guaranteed equal footing.
    Funny you should compare AO to dota. Just like AO is to mmorpgs, when it comes to MOBA games dota is the poster child for absolutely ridiculous imbalance between characters. Same issues, same heroes, same items for 10 years with a few minor occasional tweaks and adds that had nothing to do with trying to balance the game. Then again that's what makes both games fun. I haven't even noticed the similarities until this post made me think about it lol.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    ya sorry I don't actually play right now, and haven't done PVP at all since 18.7 really.



    Yes, or even simply make it more objectives based, or just make venues that require a team of 3/4/5/6 to be functioning separately with obvious, clear cut objectives which cut out the "spam specials and kill everything" approach.



    Totally.

    I'm simply hesitant to suggest something like this because of the [obvious?] manpower requirements.

    i.e. time to build in a functioning negative feedback loop, test, release = 1500 hours
    time to build a new BS with multiple, interesting objectives, new, attractive graphics, tweak professions for individual performance for balance, test, release = 75000 hours



    I play Dota 2 right now, and quite frankly, I'm loving it. AO just feels so one dimensional after playing Dota 2. Like, in a teamfight in AO, it's just so bland:

    Crat's job is to spam roots
    Doctor's job is to heal
    engi's job is to stay alive until the next tick of blockers
    Enforcers job is... well, no one really knows
    everyone else's job is to hammer the AS button every 11s

    Like, it's actually been exactly the same combat for 15 years. In 2001 it was exactly the same as it is today, and no matter what, you're always going to face the same debilitating, frustrating, gamebreakingly stupid issues:

    At 220: My side has x people your side has x+y people or vice versa, and is never fair.
    At TL1-TL5: My side has x twinks, your side has y twinks and is never fair

    In a game like Dota 2, you're guaranteed never to have a serious imbalance (as long as people don't disconnect), and because every game starts from scratch, you're always guaranteed equal footing.

    I've been calling for an equalization buff in BS for at least 5 years now, something that would go a VERY long way to equalization of the crazy imbalance imparted to participants of BS (i.e. 101 vs 150's - holy crap, or 151's vs 200's... lol who even though this would ever be reasonable)... and that's never made it into game yet despite it being probably the EASIEST fix to make BS a more equalized playing field... but even that... something which might take all of 12 man hours to build and test is not done.

    So, yea I learned to avoid suggesting stuff that, in my opinion, simply won't ever happen - not to say Michi isn't getting stuff done, he is, but w/e he's got his own priorities, and he is productive... but not in the area's that I am interested in.
    Regarding the work hours necessary.. I KNOW. But an alternative solution that would actually work properly and wouldn't empower certain types of multiboxers that aren't 100% offensive would require a re-do of most professions' toolsets. That could be even higher in total hours needed vs. designing a new instanced pvp encounter. Neither are truly doable right now but I'd rather have a true longer term solution than to have half-assed attempts that end up nerfing professions, individuals and groups in pvm and pvp while not reaaally solving the multiboxing issue as MB'ers are often a smart bunch who will take every change and spin it to their advantage (nothing against that, it's just smart gameplay).

    I'm more of a SMITE guy than DOTA 2 (where all I really did was pub stomp with the Phantom Assassin), but I fully understand what you mean regarding how fun it is and would love to see a similar balance regarding PvP scenarios in AO. No multi player game with different classes, heroes, abilities, etc.. will ever be fully balanced. AO's way further away from balance than DOTA 2, though.
    Michizure is love, Michizure is life.
    --
    Dywas - 220/30/70 Neutral Nanomage Nano-Technician
    Caramela - 220/30/70 Neutral Solitus Doctor
    Desejos - 220/30/?? Neutral Atrox Enforcer
    Gretchenross - 220/30/?? Neutral Opifex Shade
    Bizzle - 220/30/70 Neutral Atrox Soldier

    --<3 Professional love--
    * Aiken pets Lazy on the head. Sure it is, you keep telling self that
    <Aiken> such a cutesy clammer aren't you *cheekpinch*
    <Lazy>
    <Lazy> viva la revolucion
    * Dywas decides to walk away from the soon-to-be sexytime
    <Aiken> lol Dywas, Id make a man of him
    <Lazy> Dywas, i'd go gay for aiken. no lie

  20. #20
    I think Multi-Boxing/plexing and balance; are mutually exclusive to each other.
    Caloss2 LVL 220 melee VANGUARD (semi retired).....Llewlyn 220/30/70 meepmeep.....Boooocal 220../30/70 Soldier.......Knack 220/30/70 Keeper.....Hiesenberg 215/xx/xx NT NERFED Neytiri1 220/30/70 Shade Knacker220/30/70Meat shield
    https://www.youtube.com/user/caloss2 for guides/walkthroughs/letsplays and all your other AO needs
    Quote Originally Posted by Mastablasta
    In my special design documents that I feed to the FC devs, who are my willing slaves.

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