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Thread: NT Testing / Feedback requested for latest patch on Testlive.

  1. #41
    PVM damage is good, but definitely not great. There's some professions that are nipping at our heels and I think we should stand out. Should healers/evaders have comparable damage to us? I don't think so. We shouldn't even be in the same neighborhood. I want to see how another upcoming change plays out before I ask for more, however. I know you specifically miss having a weapon in your left hand

    Lowbie doubles will be adjusted the same as the 220 versions. I expect these changes should allow for lowbie GIVA's to fit in pretty well, although I'll be keeping an eye on a few most likely spots for problems.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  2. #42
    PvP-wise I heartily disagree with many of the claims made in the past about the state of NT's, especially Offensive Focus NT's.

    The lack of knowledge on how to deal with one seems to be the deciding factor on how much one complains so far. Those that know NT's well enough don't really have that much of an issue dealing with one and actually fear Defensive Focus NT's a lot more since those aren't dealt with as easily.

    The idea here is that Defensive Focus is worthy for obvious reasons. Offensive Focus needs to have it's own way of being worthy and there's several ways to do that. Giving NT's an Alpha was one of them but the non-NT community doesn't want it.
    Specific counter-effects to certain toolsets (reflects) are apparently being nerfed as well.
    We're left with CC (stuns come to mind) and higher total DPS than GIVA+IU. The latter isn't really worth losing NS2 for if a Doc/Zazen MA can just outheal it with chaincast BI (not even timing it, chain casting!!), though.

    Most PvP NT's run around with at most 3k'ish static def. We have no heals, no defensive perks specific to the prof. Our layers and blinds are relatively small and a waste of time if cast during Aegis. We also are the only prof in the game that can be countered by 1 single perk line available to all.

    That has to be kept in mind when coming up with ideas to address the PvP AND PvM issues that remain.
    Michizure is love, Michizure is life.
    --
    Dywas - 220/30/70 Neutral Nanomage Nano-Technician
    Caramela - 220/30/70 Neutral Solitus Doctor
    Desejos - 220/30/?? Neutral Atrox Enforcer
    Gretchenross - 220/30/?? Neutral Opifex Shade
    Bizzle - 220/30/70 Neutral Atrox Soldier

    --<3 Professional love--
    * Aiken pets Lazy on the head. Sure it is, you keep telling self that
    <Aiken> such a cutesy clammer aren't you *cheekpinch*
    <Lazy>
    <Lazy> viva la revolucion
    * Dywas decides to walk away from the soon-to-be sexytime
    <Aiken> lol Dywas, Id make a man of him
    <Lazy> Dywas, i'd go gay for aiken. no lie

  3. #43
    Well, we've always had a stun, but it's not something extremely useful in any offensive situation. I can only see it being useful defensively as it is now, and even still... meh.

    If it were reworked to be useful offensuvely and only be usable in offensive focus, it could take care of the healer problem.

    Just a thought I've had. It wasn't really reasonable before, but seems it could be now.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Vinkera View Post
    Well, we've always had a stun, but it's not something extremely useful in any offensive situation. I can only see it being useful defensively as it is now, and even still... meh.

    If it were reworked to be useful offensuvely and only be usable in offensive focus, it could take care of the healer problem.

    Just a thought I've had. It wasn't really reasonable before, but seems it could be now.
    I had either a rework of Neuronal Stunner as you mentioned or even something along the lines of Electrifying Containment in mind. Obviously locked to Off Focus and with proper reqs/numbers to it.
    Michizure is love, Michizure is life.
    --
    Dywas - 220/30/70 Neutral Nanomage Nano-Technician
    Caramela - 220/30/70 Neutral Solitus Doctor
    Desejos - 220/30/?? Neutral Atrox Enforcer
    Gretchenross - 220/30/?? Neutral Opifex Shade
    Bizzle - 220/30/70 Neutral Atrox Soldier

    --<3 Professional love--
    * Aiken pets Lazy on the head. Sure it is, you keep telling self that
    <Aiken> such a cutesy clammer aren't you *cheekpinch*
    <Lazy>
    <Lazy> viva la revolucion
    * Dywas decides to walk away from the soon-to-be sexytime
    <Aiken> lol Dywas, Id make a man of him
    <Lazy> Dywas, i'd go gay for aiken. no lie

  5. #45
    EC is clever, but I'm hesitant to suggest changes to it.

    First issue being, your chance to stun is only 25%. That already puts you into possibly infuriating RNG territory.

    Secondly, I'm pretty sure there are trash mobs or bosses that cast it, and making it stronger would basically have unexpected results. Probably not game breaking, but unexpected for sure.

    I think there are mobs that use our stun also, but they would get a slight nerf rather than an unexpected buff I think.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  6. #46
    My suggestion was mostly to, if possible, add new nanos within the same general idea. Replacing EC, depending on how it's done could affect froobs as well and that wasn't my idea at all.

    Since NPCs do use our nanos we need to slowly distance ourselves from them and have new things that won't be potentially game breaking when changed.

    Not the greatest priority for the moment though.
    Michizure is love, Michizure is life.
    --
    Dywas - 220/30/70 Neutral Nanomage Nano-Technician
    Caramela - 220/30/70 Neutral Solitus Doctor
    Desejos - 220/30/?? Neutral Atrox Enforcer
    Gretchenross - 220/30/?? Neutral Opifex Shade
    Bizzle - 220/30/70 Neutral Atrox Soldier

    --<3 Professional love--
    * Aiken pets Lazy on the head. Sure it is, you keep telling self that
    <Aiken> such a cutesy clammer aren't you *cheekpinch*
    <Lazy>
    <Lazy> viva la revolucion
    * Dywas decides to walk away from the soon-to-be sexytime
    <Aiken> lol Dywas, Id make a man of him
    <Lazy> Dywas, i'd go gay for aiken. no lie

  7. #47
    Ah ok. That sounds safer :P

    But, the real question is.... Is a stun a reasonable addition?

    If there is legitimately no counter for spam healing, that sounds like a balance problem to me.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalBath View Post
    Most PvP NT's run around with at most 3k'ish static def.
    With an additional 500 defense from Optic Plague it sounds like NTs have a very good defense rating for a non-evade prof.

    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalBath View Post
    We have no heals, no defensive perks specific to the prof.
    You say this like you don't still have an incredible defense. Nanobot Aegis is one of the best defensive nanos in the game. Un-rage-removable long duration roots and line of sight is one of the best defenses in the game. Dazzle with lights is an amazing perk. You also have pretty crappy group and prof AI perks which frees you up to easily perk an entire breed line for some of the best defensive perk actions in the game (Notum Shield, Sphere, Survival, Wit of the Atrox).

    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalBath View Post
    Our layers and blinds are relatively small and a waste of time if cast during Aegis.
    Oh, you're not casting the blinds, effectively reducing your own defense by 500 points. That's like unequipping all of your HUDs and utilities and complaining your def is too low.

    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalBath View Post
    We also are the only prof in the game that can be countered by 1 single perk line available to all
    When is the last time you encountered someone who had NR8 perked? Honestly, how often does this happen? I suspect it's likely not happened to you a single time in the last 6 months.

    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalBath View Post
    That has to be kept in mind when coming up with ideas to address the PvP AND PvM issues that remain.
    Yes, it is very important to take an unbiased look at professions when discussing balance. Unfortunately this viewpoint is heavily biased.

    That being said, a rework (or addition) of the stunning nukes sounds like a great idea. Might I recommend that you do not lock the nano to offensive focus, but instead increase the stun chance and duration when in offensive focus? The numbers likely need reworked across the board because the 25% chance to stun on top of standard resists is very painful at low levels. Perhaps this should be increased to 50% chance to stun when in defensive focus, and 100% chance in offensive focus. Nano cooldown should be 1s, line cooldown in the realm of 5s, stun duration in the realm of 2s.
    The Fine Arts:
    Mime | Surgery | Zen
    The Traitor


    Xirayne: I couldn't care less about who is clueless or what the exact definition "real" pvp is in ao, I want "fun" pvp!

  9. #49
    I'm going to call a time out for a moment, because I've got psycho powers or espn or something...

    I can see where this discussion is going to lead to, and Sultry/ Digital, I would kindly ask that one of you make a PVP balance discussion thread if you want to continue this.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a good argument, as they can lead to constructive things. What I don't want, is an argument in this thread, and I'd really appreciate if you both would snip your own posts (the parts you know I'm talking about) and plop them into said new thread.

    We're all adults here, and I think that's not too much to ask.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  10. #50
    I'm just going to take the quickest road here and ignore Sultry's repeated false claims. He's heavily anti-NT and one of the most biased posters I've come across on the anti-NT crusade. ALL the discussion regarding NT's balance on the current Live server's version and ALL I had to say about it is in other threads. Enough is enough.

    Regarding the Stun on Def Focus idea. I can't say I don't like it somewhat. But it DOES sound OP to me.
    Giva+IU is decent damage. Add perks and you can do some nice spike damage. Won't alpha anything that isn't a very low hp shade or crat, ofc. If you add stuns to it I fear the offensive power may be a bit too much and end up nerfing NT's both PvP and PvM just like in the past, as well as wasting dev resources.

    Def focus is mostly fine. Offensive Focus, as is on Testlive, is not and needs work.
    Michizure is love, Michizure is life.
    --
    Dywas - 220/30/70 Neutral Nanomage Nano-Technician
    Caramela - 220/30/70 Neutral Solitus Doctor
    Desejos - 220/30/?? Neutral Atrox Enforcer
    Gretchenross - 220/30/?? Neutral Opifex Shade
    Bizzle - 220/30/70 Neutral Atrox Soldier

    --<3 Professional love--
    * Aiken pets Lazy on the head. Sure it is, you keep telling self that
    <Aiken> such a cutesy clammer aren't you *cheekpinch*
    <Lazy>
    <Lazy> viva la revolucion
    * Dywas decides to walk away from the soon-to-be sexytime
    <Aiken> lol Dywas, Id make a man of him
    <Lazy> Dywas, i'd go gay for aiken. no lie

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by DigitalBath View Post
    He's heavily anti-NT and one of the most biased posters I've come across on the anti-NT crusade.
    What I have noticed is that the pvp crowd is always biased. Any time they post they are always comparing the absolute best of the best vs the absolute worst of the worst scenario to make a point.

    For example- The whole anti- reflect pierce is the silliest thing i've ever heard and im surprised you guys actually are not totally against this change. I look at it like a very watered down nemesis nano. 2s of no AMS is not even close to as debilitating as pealed layers or ncu wipe essence.
    ~Anyone can level, but only the wise gain experience~

    *Bronto Burger, serving 10,000 high level noobs daily*

    http://wolf-brigade.webs.com/

    My Story

    Don't feed the Mensa Tralalalala

    Everyday I'm Shuffling.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Psikie View Post
    What I have noticed is that the pvp crowd is always biased. Any time they post they are always comparing the absolute best of the best vs the absolute worst of the worst scenario to make a point.

    For example- The whole anti- reflect pierce is the silliest thing i've ever heard and im surprised you guys actually are not totally against this change. I look at it like a very watered down nemesis nano. 2s of no AMS is not even close to as debilitating as pealed layers or ncu wipe essence.
    I've been on the receiving end of it on my Soldier and it does feel a bit wrong but I get what you mean. I can kill NT's 1v1 just fine for the most part.. but as soon as someone tags along it goes downhill FAST. While if I'm fighting 2 (sometimes 3) of quite a few other profs it's not such a big deal and I can probably dispatch *at least* 1 of the 3 and run off.

    That said, if a Trader or Engi comes along it's a similar feeling so it might just not be that unfair and these latest changes might just be unwarranted.
    Michizure is love, Michizure is life.
    --
    Dywas - 220/30/70 Neutral Nanomage Nano-Technician
    Caramela - 220/30/70 Neutral Solitus Doctor
    Desejos - 220/30/?? Neutral Atrox Enforcer
    Gretchenross - 220/30/?? Neutral Opifex Shade
    Bizzle - 220/30/70 Neutral Atrox Soldier

    --<3 Professional love--
    * Aiken pets Lazy on the head. Sure it is, you keep telling self that
    <Aiken> such a cutesy clammer aren't you *cheekpinch*
    <Lazy>
    <Lazy> viva la revolucion
    * Dywas decides to walk away from the soon-to-be sexytime
    <Aiken> lol Dywas, Id make a man of him
    <Lazy> Dywas, i'd go gay for aiken. no lie

  13. #53
    Seems very unwarranted imo. In fact it's almost like some pay-off type of nerf because people were upset NT's could actually have some type of alpha without aimed shot/burst/fling.
    ~Anyone can level, but only the wise gain experience~

    *Bronto Burger, serving 10,000 high level noobs daily*

    http://wolf-brigade.webs.com/

    My Story

    Don't feed the Mensa Tralalalala

    Everyday I'm Shuffling.

  14. #54
    Guys... I hate to be the first to say it... But what happens when MBOxers get stuns?

    In any case NT needs a new endgame AoE nuke. That would make it really good in my eyes for pvm damage. And it would really stand out...

    Goal would be, when you have 5 or 6 mobs on you tanking them... You can hit them for 450k dpm combined per minute... Essentially a 3x stronger VE... Could be 135% nr check, 20m range, short recharge say 1s... Alternative would be big damage every 4 seconds.

    Then its better on multiple targets than other top dd profs... And retains current spot against single target.

    How do you guys feel about that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    This'll be fixed for the next patch

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Cratertina View Post
    Guys... I hate to be the first to say it... But what happens when MBOxers get stuns?

    In any case NT needs a new endgame AoE nuke. That would make it really good in my eyes for pvm damage. And it would really stand out...

    Goal would be, when you have 5 or 6 mobs on you tanking them... You can hit them for 450k dpm combined per minute... Essentially a 3x stronger VE... Could be 135% nr check, 20m range, short recharge say 1s... Alternative would be big damage every 4 seconds.

    Then its better on multiple targets than other top dd profs... And retains current spot against single target.

    How do you guys feel about that?
    Multiboxers already have access to stuns via (at least) Agents, which given the /assist changes might be THE way to go for ganks anyway (stealth gives you as much time as you want to pretarget...) so that's not really something I'll put any thought into.
    Offensive Focus as it stands on Testlive is something I wouldn't go near for love or money given the NS2 trade-off. It's a priority for me to make sure both Def and Off focus make sense and are useful parts of our toolset. Stuns were a good suggestion, although the EC-type stun (with a % chance associated and moderate damage) might be preferable to a 100% chance stun. Definitely not ruling anything out at this point though.

    The High-Level AoE idea is something we're looking at with a lower priority for the moment than fixing some progression issues between low/mid/high level NT's as it's a fairly harsh Profession to play if you don't follow the kite hill path. Some of it is already coming (NS1 being more readily available), some of it is still on the way (lower level GIVA-style nukes). Things tie well together if we think the best AoE nano can be cast at a VERY low level with some OSB's and it's the best nano for both single target and aoe raw dps until an embarrassingly late level. Some of these changes will address that.

    One step at a time
    Last edited by DigitalBath; Aug 29th, 2015 at 23:34:02.
    Michizure is love, Michizure is life.
    --
    Dywas - 220/30/70 Neutral Nanomage Nano-Technician
    Caramela - 220/30/70 Neutral Solitus Doctor
    Desejos - 220/30/?? Neutral Atrox Enforcer
    Gretchenross - 220/30/?? Neutral Opifex Shade
    Bizzle - 220/30/70 Neutral Atrox Soldier

    --<3 Professional love--
    * Aiken pets Lazy on the head. Sure it is, you keep telling self that
    <Aiken> such a cutesy clammer aren't you *cheekpinch*
    <Lazy>
    <Lazy> viva la revolucion
    * Dywas decides to walk away from the soon-to-be sexytime
    <Aiken> lol Dywas, Id make a man of him
    <Lazy> Dywas, i'd go gay for aiken. no lie

  16. #56
    I've thought about a few alternatives to stuns, just so we have a few things on the table.

    1. Some kind of small Nanopool buff and Nano Delta buff.
    Pros:
    - Props up Nanobot Aegis for a few more seconds.
    - Could also benefit lower levels, where nano regen is a problem that will only be made worse with new baby GIVA's.

    Cons:
    - Makes Offensive focus more defensive indirectly.
    - Makes Defensive focus stronger, also. Maybe too strong.
    - Doesn't do anything to address possible issues dealing with healers.

    2. Some kind of "Alpha Nuke". I can't seem to find where I put the nano docs atm, but I believe it would be a similar concept. I'd imagine having it in the same nanoline as GIVA. It could do more damage (obviously), but also lock GIVA out for more than 10 seconds.
    Pros:
    - Definitely fits into the offensive focus idea.

    Cons:
    - Adds even more complexity.

    Just a couple more random ideas. *shrugs*
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

  17. #57
    How about give off focus 20% nano damage buff?
    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    This'll be fixed for the next patch

  18. #58
    Well it was fun while it lasted, actually having an alpha. But I can see after this patch I won't be playing on BS with my NT anymore. We will be going right back to limbo.
    ~Anyone can level, but only the wise gain experience~

    *Bronto Burger, serving 10,000 high level noobs daily*

    http://wolf-brigade.webs.com/

    My Story

    Don't feed the Mensa Tralalalala

    Everyday I'm Shuffling.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Psikie View Post
    Well it was fun while it lasted, actually having an alpha. But I can see after this patch I won't be playing on BS with my NT anymore. We will be going right back to limbo.
    I hope we can soon bring further changes that will make NT's Offensive Focus viable again. But for the time being it is the way it is.
    Michizure is love, Michizure is life.
    --
    Dywas - 220/30/70 Neutral Nanomage Nano-Technician
    Caramela - 220/30/70 Neutral Solitus Doctor
    Desejos - 220/30/?? Neutral Atrox Enforcer
    Gretchenross - 220/30/?? Neutral Opifex Shade
    Bizzle - 220/30/70 Neutral Atrox Soldier

    --<3 Professional love--
    * Aiken pets Lazy on the head. Sure it is, you keep telling self that
    <Aiken> such a cutesy clammer aren't you *cheekpinch*
    <Lazy>
    <Lazy> viva la revolucion
    * Dywas decides to walk away from the soon-to-be sexytime
    <Aiken> lol Dywas, Id make a man of him
    <Lazy> Dywas, i'd go gay for aiken. no lie

  20. #60
    I believe the most frustrating part is that we STILL lack clear direction. I had hoped that things would have progressed more, but I guess we're limited there on manpower. That doesn't change the fact that there is still a laundry list of problems.

    - PVM wise...
    We're pathetic until 215. There's no other word for it, really. New baby GIVA nukes should help lowbies quite a bit, but they are NOT the complete solution. But, even at 220, even in the best gear, we're maybe in the bottom 3 worst soloers. I'd say, arguably the worst. That would be fine if we're leaving a sizable gap in damage between other professions, but even some evaders and healers can match us. Obviously, that's not really balanced, since damage should be our thing.

    - PVP wise...
    Was maybe the best place we did shine, but I'd say we need additional adjustments to be viable again. Hopefully this invites adjustments to other professions that need toning down, and you know who you are.

    - Other stuff
    Most of our SL nukes are not that good, especially lowbie ones which suck in almost every way possible. There isn't one for Lvl 175, and I have no idea why. SL nukes don't have scaling damage or Nuke OE yet. Crats can actually buff Nano regeneration better than we can. We have too many buffs that use too much NCU. Lowbies and froobs at any level have awful Nano regeneration. We will probably never see any form of Nano Burst. Froob possible armor is our best damage oriented armor. Blah... Blah... Blah... I could go on for ages.

    The reality of 18.7 and the changes Michi has made so far pretty much add up to getting back what Genele took away. We got a few nice toys and QoL changes, but we gave up some things, too. He's done a good job overall, but the amount of issues is overwhelming. I'm pretty sure if I sent him a complete list of them, he'd lose his mind and throw his PC out the window.

    Above all else, the biggest problem I see is lack of clear direction. If it's supposed to be glass cannon, that wasn't perfect even before this patch, and it's worse now, if anything.
    Vinkera - Soli NT - 426k DPM - Setup
    Robbey - Soli Crat

    Lone anarchists - Tower of Babil

    Celez - Soli Doc
    Loaloa - Soli Enf
    Wondershot - Nano Soldier
    Robzor - Soli Engi
    Proserpexa - Opi Agent

    Trying out civilization - Storm

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