Maybe fix nt

[Raggy]

Depends on the setup I'm using, but in my current "all-purpose going to BS" setup I sit at 2649 MC. This setup gets me slightly under 3k static def and is also what I use for solo PvM because I'm fairly lazy when it comes to that. I also sit at 28098 nano and 13541 hp. I'm a neutral so some restrictions apply.

So realistically, if we did just Deprive on you, you would still be able to cast GIVA/Doubles/IU without any trouble.

If we somehow managed to land Plunder on you, which is highly unlikely due to Traders godawful nanoskills and a 130% check, you'd still be more than capable of annihilating a Trader with Gelid/ESA. But it would never reach that point since it would take about 8 or so casts to even land Plunder, during that time you'd alpha us.

Where exactly does a Trader wreck an NTs toolset again?

[DigitalBath]

So realistically, if we did just Deprive on you, you would still be able to cast GIVA/Doubles/IU without any trouble.

If we somehow managed to land Plunder on you, which is highly unlikely due to Traders godawful nanoskills and a 130% check, you'd still be more than capable of annihilating a Trader with Gelid/ESA. But it would never reach that point since it would take about 8 or so casts to even land Plunder, during that time you'd alpha us.

Where exactly does a Trader wreck an NTs toolset again?

That's some cute 100% paper PvP you got going there. There have been reports though of both Traders and MP's who do this.. and I encounter them in BS.

To answer on the paper bits, though.. your Plunder doesn't block me from casting GIVA(2000-2100-2300-2600-3000 reqs for each damage tier)/Doubles(2240 Req)/IU(2046 Req). It does make them land less and it immediately shifts me to a lower damage tier of GIVA as well.

With Plunder (trader's awful base nanoskills are something you should be in charge of getting through to Michi and doesn't concern NT's, btw) you do bring my damage down significantly and even with Gelid/ESA you're assuming I'm surviving for waay longer and that you, as a trader, can't defend yourself in any way.. which is sort of untrue.

There's also GTH which despite not being as devastating as it once was.. it still will wreck an Offensive Focus NT's only defense fairly fast. It takes roughly 2800 nano per second in addition to the nanopool taken by your hits/perks/specials.
You can also root NT's with a 90% check which for a NT in Aegis can be very devastating. Not that we can't eventually break the root but by the time we catch up Aegis should be gone... and you should, by now, know what that means.

Traders need a boost because they are in a bad spot vs. many professions in PvP. NTs are not really one of them, though.


My real-world BS experience post-18.7 tells me that there's many 215-219 traders that get instadestroyed (as expected).. and there's solid 220 PvP traders who are still holding their own and doing well. I'd suspect they use combined scout's these days or something to that effect but this is me guessing, not reliable info. Goteborgs does okay for himself though I fought him mostly on my Soldier lately. On my NT I honestly can't recall the name of the trader I fought other than it starting with Tish or something.. but I'll have more info as soon as I do more BS on the NT.

Ironically, when playing my Soldier in BS.. NT's are not much of an issue. Advs, Traders and Engineers (in that order) are the real beasts.. not that they're OP.. but they have an easy time countering my toolset.
Each to his own.

[DigitalBath]

I'll say this one last time.. if you actively seek to Nerf NT's.. bring evidence that a nerf actually makes sense.

I'm growing very tired of the blatant lying and/or misinforming that goes on in threads like this and will eventually just leave the people who have been doing it to their nonsensical ramblings where a NT is an unkillable demigod with the damage of 10 shades. It's ridiculous and should be seen as such.

If there's someone with any serious intent to check how NT's actually are and who would like to give solid in-game examples of how they see NT's in any way as "needing a nerf" you can contact me in-game on any of the toons on my signature. I play a bit of every timezone depending on my rotating work schedule so.. just /cc addbuddy.


EDIT: For clarification, I won't bother replying here any further to anything that is blatantly false. I've shown enough.

[Raggy]

That's some cute 100% paper PvP you got going there. There have been reports though of both Traders and MP's who do this.. and I encounter them in BS.

To answer on the paper bits, though.. your Plunder doesn't block me from casting GIVA(2000-2100-2300-2600-3000 reqs for each damage tier)/Doubles(2240 Req)/IU(2046 Req). It does make them land less and it immediately shifts me to a lower damage tier of GIVA as well.

First you comment on paper PvP yet almost all your posts in this thread are exactly that? Come on now.

Also Plunder WOULD stop you casting those things because you have 2.6k MC and D/P removes 700. You'd be left with 1.9k. Not like it matters though, as Plunder never lands.

With Plunder (trader's awful base nanoskills are something you should be in charge of getting through to Michi and doesn't concern NT's, btw) you do bring my damage down significantly and even with Gelid/ESA you're assuming I'm surviving for waay longer and that you, as a trader, can't defend yourself in any way.. which is sort of untrue.

Doesn't concern NTs? Well clearly it does since everyone seems to think Traders are capable of shutting down an NTs toolset (lolwtf) despite me pointing out it's not even remotely possible. Also, how exactly is a Trader meant to defend himself whilst spamming Plunder to try and stop you steamrolling us? Granted we could pop NBD and GTH/YEEIYF (providing they land) to try and give us some wiggle room, but NTs have more than enough methods of mitigating GTH, like I pointed our earlier.

So then the Trader has no nano (thanks NBD), hasn't got Plunder up (thanks 130%), GTH/YEEIYF is on CD and all our very lacklustre damage perks are on CD.

Where is the untruth? You have spent all thread trying to point out inconsistencies with NTs yet post them yourself regarding Traders.

There's also GTH which despite not being as devastating as it once was.. it still will wreck an Offensive Focus NT's only defense fairly fast. It takes roughly 2800 nano per second in addition to the nanopool taken by your hits/perks/specials.

And you have far more capabilities to regain nano than we have to take it.

You can also root NT's with a 90% check which for a NT in Aegis can be very devastating. Not that we can't eventually break the root but by the time we catch up Aegis should be gone... and you should, by now, know what that means.

Sunder constraints and FM Stims.

Traders need a boost because they are in a bad spot vs. many professions in PvP. NTs are not really one of them, though.

Debunked above.

My real-world BS experience post-18.7 tells me that there's many 215-219 traders that get instadestroyed (as expected).. and there's solid 220 PvP traders who are still holding their own and doing well. I'd suspect they use combined scout's these days or something to that effect but this is me guessing, not reliable info. Goteborgs does okay for himself though I fought him mostly on my Soldier lately. On my NT I honestly can't recall the name of the trader I fought other than it starting with Tish or something.. but I'll have more info as soon as I do more BS on the NT.

Ironically, when playing my Soldier in BS.. NT's are not much of an issue. Advs, Traders and Engineers (in that order) are the real beasts.. not that they're OP.. but they have an easy time countering my toolset.
Each to his own.

It's your anecdotal evidence vs everyone elses. So far you're outnumbered. Your experiences are not matching up with other people. Odd that.

[Djiax]

@ Vinkera : You are right to say you cannot give in to every single suggestion posted by everyone on a thread like that. I think your best bet for balance is to listen to a few select very good pvpers, who have the knowledge that comes only from spending endless hours everyday pvping. Try to find a good willing recognized NT with that no-ego-no-drama attitude who spends all his time in BS and dueling. I could talk of city pvp and towers as well but actually this pvp environment doesn't allow a player to collect as many "balance knowledge" as BS and duels do.

You need to find and talk with such a NT because as far as I can tell you are not that player ("spending a lot of time with my org doin our stuffs").

Please take no offense : it's just that the sheer amount of possibilities in PvP situations is huuuuuuuuuge, so you need someone who is really really into it.

When I used to play my NT a few years ago I was there and at some point you can pretty much say very precisely what's your chance of success against each individual profession, but that's just the start. As you keep playing you can refine this estimate and take into account individual playing style and setup / gimpness into count. Then you refine even more and you take into account not only you versus an other opponent but how you behave versus 2+ combo of all these professions / setup / playerstyle, and then you add the possibility of running with a friend of you, or two, and the possibilities extends even more. Then it also depends on if your toolset is up or in cooldown, and same for your opponents.

Please try to envision what I m saying, try to frame it in your mind : the sheer amount of PvP situations is huge.

You need a NT who has the global vision. He will want to balance his own profession for good sport.

I agree with the OP.
I don't think a huge nerf is needed, but definitely something. NTs have few hard counters and are extremely hard to deal with on many professions.
Many NTs on BS are doing very well, not because they play particularly cleverly but because the damage output is staggering. There's little kiting, no blinds, rarely roots; just nuke until one of you dies.

Also, on HP ranging from 15k to 20k and hours of BS, Garuk's has always capped me.

Untill you find your personnal pvp adviser, you can start opening communication line with other profession's pvp expert. See what Srompu said at first ? "I don't think a huge nerf is needed". Just a little something. In most balance issue all that is needed is a few numbers tweak there and there. Your proposal of changing double is just random in term of pure balance and fairness for all, and if any of your proposed double change makes it in game, you will still have to properly balance it after.

I know Srompu is good ! Try to talk with him ! Maybe he ll point you to NTs he respect. No-ego-no-drama, it's for the game's own good and the whole community wins !

[Vinkera]

@ Vinkera : You are right to say you cannot give in to every single suggestion posted by everyone on a thread like that. I think your best bet for balance is to listen to a few select very good pvpers, who have the knowledge that comes only from spending endless hours everyday pvping. Try to find a good willing recognized NT with that no-ego-no-drama attitude who spends all his time in BS and dueling. I could talk of city pvp and towers as well but actually this pvp environment doesn't allow a player to collect as many "balance knowledge" as BS and duels do.

You need to find and talk with such a NT because as far as I can tell you are not that player ("spending a lot of time with my org doin our stuffs").

Please take no offense : it's just that the sheer amount of possibilities in PvP situations is huuuuuuuuuge, so you need someone who is really really into it.

When I used to play my NT a few years ago I was there and at some point you can pretty much say very precisely what's your chance of success against each individual profession, but that's just the start. As you keep playing you can refine this estimate and take into account individual playing style and setup / gimpness into count. Then you refine even more and you take into account not only you versus an other opponent but how you behave versus 2+ combo of all these professions / setup / playerstyle, and then you add the possibility of running with a friend of you, or two, and the possibilities extends even more. Then it also depends on if your toolset is up or in cooldown, and same for your opponents.

Please try to envision what I m saying, try to frame it in your mind : the sheer amount of PvP situations is huge.

You need a NT who has the global vision. He will want to balance his own profession for good sport.



Untill you find your personnal pvp adviser, you can start opening communication line with other profession's pvp expert. See what Srompu said at first ? "I don't think a huge nerf is needed". Just a little something. In most balance issue all that is needed is a few numbers tweak there and there. Your proposal of changing double is just random in term of pure balance and fairness for all, and if any of your proposed double change makes it in game, you will still have to properly balance it after.

I know Srompu is good ! Try to talk with him ! Maybe he ll point you to NTs he respect. No-ego-no-drama, it's for the game's own good and the whole community wins !

I'm open to ideas, but in this thread there's too much opinion, too much bias, too much whining. Seriously, what would anyone expect me to take away from that? I'm trying to stay middle man, but if I'm just nit picked and criticized by many posters here, my responses are going to be sour. That's just how it is.

If there's any good PVP'ers out there who want a serious chat with me, I'd like to hear from you, and I promise you, we can have a pleasant one. If you're going to give me flame, etc, then expect a /ignore. But, if you have a problem with NT's as they are, you can come to me. I'm not hunting you down, and the peanut gallery here is making serious talk difficult.

Let me explain MY process. I'll have a chat with you in game, via PM, whatever. If we can agree on a reasonable idea, (and, despite popular belief, I'm very reasonable) we can then have open discussion in the NT forums on it, where off topic, irrelevant, or disrespectful posts will be reported (again, I'm pretty fair and pretty clear about that). Once the details are smoothed out, I'll personally deliver the proposed to Michi pretty much on a silver platter, with a 2 thumbs up from me.

As I said before, the only person who has EVER done this before was Burgly.

[Psikie]

Psifury is my NT ill be on today, and usually around 10p-midnight CST. So not sure what crowd that is but i've been dueling members of Dreadloch corp and Spartans in Bor and in duel room on BS for my 1 on 1 experience.

That's some cute 100% paper PvP you got going there. There have been reports though of both Traders and MP's who do this.. and I encounter them in BS.

There's also GTH which despite not being as devastating as it once was.. it still will wreck an Offensive Focus NT's only defense fairly fast. It takes roughly 2800 nano per second in addition to the nanopool taken by your hits/perks/specials.

Have to agree with this.

First you comment on paper PvP yet almost all your posts in this thread are exactly that? Come on now.

Granted we could pop NBD and GTH/YEEIYF (providing they land) to try and give us some wiggle room, but NTs have more than enough methods of mitigating GTH, like I pointed our earlier.

And you have far more capabilities to regain nano than we have to take it.

Sunder constraints and FM Stims.

GTH technically gives traders the largest dps to an NT in aegis in game.

Now just curious at what point would an NT use sunder while they are trying to do max DD, after the fight if they survive? While the trader are healing out of LoS?

@ Vinkera :

You need a NT who has the global vision. He will want to balance his own profession for good sport.

Now this bizarre because I ont even like the fact that Vinkera is entertaining this thread in the first place. I'd say he/she is being very open minded. I do not thin there needs to be any changes atm to NT's.

The sky is not falling. This sort of thread happens almost every love patch. Thinking back over the last 10+ years these are some of the cry nerf threads I've read. Most of them are laughable now. This is a lot to do about nothing.

Agents AS can't be defended against. Advy are always OP. Crats init debuffs, nukes, AS pistol, + carlo dmg is too powerful. Enfo haxx 1hb/1he should be considered exploit. Engi pets have too much AR I cant evade them. Fixers have too much aad from GA. MA's do too much crit damage its not fair. MP's can totally shut down docs OMG nerf. Soldiers can get too much reflects.

[Vinkera]

Now this bizarre because I ont even like the fact that Vinkera is entertaining this thread in the first place. I'd say he/she is being very open minded. I do not thin there needs to be any changes atm to NT's.

I've said what I had to, maybe too much. I'm done.

Anyone wants to chat with me further regarding this, do it in game or PM.

[Genie]

Remove them and replace them with the proposed nano weaving from the old balance documents.

I support removing or replacing them for 2 reasons.

1. The pierce reflect part targets soldiers specifically.

2. They break the 30% cap rule, which makes it easy to abuse by MBers to get guaranteed instant kills.

[Psikie]

I support removing or replacing them for 2 reasons.

1. The pierce reflect part targets soldiers specifically.

2. They break the 30% cap rule, which makes it easy to abuse by MBers to get guaranteed instant kills.

WHAAAAA?

Pierce reflect targets ANYONE that uses reflects like...engi's, keepers, advy's, mp's, especially other NT's, or any toon for that matter that uses 5/5 aruls, or even reflect grafts and nano cans. wtf.

MBers? Seriously? thats what you got for a reason, MBers? That is about as absurd as (deleted 3 page rant)... omfg dude it's 1000x easier to MB 3 agents or 3 advys with AS than to use 3 NT's.

Please for the love of Jobe just stop.

[Lazy]

So in summary, brokenly strong profession tries to convince everyone its not brokenly strong. This is almost as funny to read as that thread where the advy pro was whinging that advies needed a buff.

[Psikie]

I'll just take for granted that you are not really this stupid, and refrain from further comment.

Considering your statement was about as logical as saying NSD specifically targets one prof over any other that uses nano skills. It makes about as much sense. But i see reason escapes you and it's easier to sling insults.

[Vispa]

That's some cute 100% paper PvP you got going there. There have been reports though of both Traders and MP's who do this.. and I encounter them in BS. There's also GTH which despite not being as devastating as it once was.. it still will wreck an Offensive Focus NT's only defense fairly fast. It takes roughly 2800 nano per second in addition to the nanopool taken by your hits/perks/specials.
You can also root NT's with a 90% check which for a NT in Aegis can be very devastating. Not that we can't eventually break the root but by the time we catch up Aegis should be gone... and you should, by now, know what that means.

Traders need a boost because they are in a bad spot vs. many professions in PvP. NTs are not really one of them, though.

As said, you really are giving misinformation. With current changes NT demolishes traders. (before changes a good NT was already a pretty close 50/50 fight.) Def or Off it's a whole lot of damage to take in, specially with where trader currently stands. By the time a trader lands it's stuff, ( unless lucky) there is no breathing room. Even if they DO land, you can now remove them with perk. Which really doesn't matter, even now with the boosted draining of D/P, a few swaps and its really easy to cast top nanos. As for Gth, NT has more than enough ways to deal with it right when it runs out that it makes it almost useless now. Wealth being the main one if not for nano heal perks. Sure, it can be debated as a trader problem, but it also is an NT one.

Why the delayed nuke for Off focus was even implemented is beyond me. Didn't feel like NT lacked damage even before it was. Now that starfall perks are almost instant along with Garuk not requiring dot, it feels like that's just a bit over the top.

As for Def focus, it's hard to say NT is " op". I do agree a few things need to get tweaked though. I never minded DM ( Garuk) requiring dot being casted before first. In fact, i still do it first by habit usually.

While NT isn't a god, it is by far one of few classes in really good standing with current changes. Not only that, but with the mixture of not needing topnotch endgame gear like other classes, along with how many currently run around, ( don't blame them, NT can be really fun to play, before and after the changes.) it will definitely seem as if NT is godly.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

I'd just like to point out that NT is the only prof that can survive a zerg at point blank range.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but it is probably the single most powerful aspect of the class even if it is for a short duration.

[Jovial]

Man, this is the thread that keeps on giving, in terms of straight up comedy. People who theorycraft PvP one way, accusing people who theorycraft it another way of being crazy (this is, literally, 50% of the entire thread). I feel like I'm watching people who believe in the Easter Bunny tell other people that they're crazy, because those people believe in Santa Clause.

ALL of this theorycrafting is easily testable, verifiable, whatever-able. All Michi has to do is pluck a few of you "self-proclaimed" PvP all stars from wherever you are and drop you into the arena (or your own BS instance) and observe. If Vinkera wins 98% of all the matches, while never dropping below 60% health then yea, maybe that's an issue worth looking at. If Raggy never lands a single Plunder in 12 attempts and dies without getting any opponent below 80% life, again, probably an issue. Lather, rinse, repeat for all classes that have a gripe.

[Bakong]

Goteborgs does okay for himself though I fought him mostly on my Soldier lately.

Just realized I was mentioned in this post almost a year ago <3 bizzle