Maybe fix nt

[dritst]

A part from brainstorming and paper pvp where nt professional and some other nts try to argue that they aren't overpowerful, could we get a fix from dev?
If you want a real prof just watch tl7 bs instead of papver pvp -_- tactical+garuk+double= TOO MUCH DMGE by far (i didnt count perk ofc and you can time tactical and garuk, fisrt one removing reflect).
Yes i got an NT and it isnt even fun now -_-.
Shield/N2+stacking reflect is just stupid too.

[Le-Quack]

umm i dont know, i had much free kills on Nt's on my agent/shade, and engis with nsd realy destorys em. they cant hurt soldiers in ams if they want ns II and if they dont use ns II many soldiers are able to kill their aegis guard easy.
adv's seems to be rather okey with bior/ch/reg heal+bio, enf with 50k health and good nr... takes time in open pvp and usualy not worth the time to try kill em. this is what i came up with without even trying to find good arguements.

i think the balance cycle is pretty okey atm, could aswell nerf agent if we gonna talk about op, but agein i see agents also meet their fair share of oponents that makes their life hard.
not a legit complain i think.

[Vinkera]

umm i dont know, i had much free kills on Nt's on my agent/shade, and engis with nsd realy destorys em. they cant hurt soldiers in ams if they want ns II and if they dont use ns II many soldiers are able to kill their aegis guard easy.
adv's seems to be rather okey with bior/ch/reg heal+bio, enf with 50k health and good nr... takes time in open pvp and usualy not worth the time to try kill em. this is what i came up with without even trying to find good arguements.

i think the balance cycle is pretty okey atm, could aswell nerf agent if we gonna talk about op, but agein i see agents also meet their fair share of oponents that makes their life hard.
not a legit complain i think.

Agreed.

[sultryvoltron]

In my opinion Offensive and Defensive Focus has too short of a lockout.

Also, when using defensive focus even when you give up doubles the amount of offense with GIVA is pretty crazy. At least before with Detonation Matrix you had to run SI to get max damage out of it. Now nearly any NT can land capping hits on most professions even faster than an Agent's AS recharge just by getting 2100 MC. Also, DM had the weird PvP damage reduction thing going on which kept it from being ubiquitous in PvP. I wouldn't mind seeing GIVA do the current PvP damage in offensive focus, but reduced damage in defensive focus. Doubles are simply not needed to kill people in many cases because of how strong GIVA is.

[Vinkera]

The defensive / offensive focus lockout is fine.

Defensive focus has nearly no alpha already, so I don't see that being plausible, and reducing GIVA would totally break it. DM was a guaranteed 30% hit, GIVA isn't, so if anything, it's already hitting for less. With 10 second recharge, and the single threadedness of Nanos, I wouldn't make it sound like GIVA is consderably faster than Aimed shot, either.

Also, you are aware Doubles can't be used in defensive focus, right?

[sultryvoltron]

Also, you are aware Doubles can't be used in defensive focus, right?

Literally said this in the post...

Also, offensive capability does not always mean alpha. GIVA gives NTs significantly improved offense compared to old DM. I might be remembering the weird PvP calculation it had incorrectly, but I am absolutely correct remembering that you had to land SI first which required more effort and gave a small window of advantage to the other player.

Other than that, I don't even know what you're trying to say other than to just sandbag your profession in as many posts as possible.

[Vinkera]

Other than that, I don't even know what you're trying to say other than to just sandbag your profession in as many posts as possible.

I think the correct term is "protect" it from people who falsify information to make us out to be gods. There are plenty of people who cry nerf, without even understanding how something works, and you're critical of my posts. Hah...

You can say whatever floats your boat about my posts, I couldn't care less.. but I haven't falsified anything, anywhere.

[Aiken]

I think the correct term is "protect" it from people who falsify information to make us out to be gods. There are plenty of people who cry nerf, without even understanding how something works, and you're critical of my posts. Hah...

You can say whatever floats your boat about my posts, I couldn't care less.. but I haven't falsified anything, anywhere.

To be very fair on the subject, NT's are hideously OP'd in many regards and no ammount of saying otherwise is going to alter that fact. Personally I would like to see a little more Glass in the glass-cannon thing, but there we go.

[srompu]

I agree with the OP.
I don't think a huge nerf is needed, but definitely something. NTs have few hard counters and are extremely hard to deal with on many professions.
Many NTs on BS are doing very well, not because they play particularly cleverly but because the damage output is staggering. There's little kiting, no blinds, rarely roots; just nuke until one of you dies.

Also, on HP ranging from 15k to 20k and hours of BS, Garuk's has always capped me.

[sultryvoltron]

I think the correct term is "protect" it from people who falsify information to make us out to be gods. There are plenty of people who cry nerf, without even understanding how something works, and you're critical of my posts. Hah...

You can say whatever floats your boat about my posts, I couldn't care less.. but I haven't falsified anything, anywhere.

I mean it's not a big deal. Everyone does it. You will likely not find a single post on these forums that says "The profession that I main and care the most about is too strong and I wish it was weaker".

That being said, many of the other professionals have expressed their thoughts on NTs. The general consensus of many of the representatives of other professions (some who have played for 10+ years) is that NTs might be a bit on the strong side, most often saying that the "glass cannon" (a balance buzzword used by NTs) isn't quite glass enough with a few mentions that maybe it's a bit too much cannon.

Most non-NT players seem to agree. I'm sure there is a reasonable balance somewhere in between what Soldiers want you to be and what you want to be.

[DigitalBath]

-- Yet another huge post. Can't seem to make small ones anymore.

@sultryvoltron and Aiken: You seem to know VERY little about how NT's actually operate nowadays and about what was said in the latest NT nerf threads. This makes it nearly impossible for you to be "fair" on the subject since your lack of knowledge will betray you at some point. "Feeling" a profession is overpowered is just not enough to warrant nerfing it.

@everyone:
I'm not going to list all that was said that was ridiculous and false on many threads, ignoring how the profession works and defiantly assuming a position of ignorance towards the profession and it's community representative.. but I'll remind you of some of the "basics":

NT's have a strong ~3 second alpha. It amounts to about 15-16k PvP Damage AT MOST and will leave many people very low on HP (doc/enf/adv/keeper being the main exceptions here). That shouldn't be an issue though as Agents, Shades, etc have similarly brutal alphas and also have the benefit of stuns and stealth.
NT's 2nd Double will take at least another 4 seconds to hit the target and will do about 5-6.5k damage, which is actually lower than the next "wave" of damage from a Shade or Agent who knows what he's doing.
We have a 75% NR check on Garuk's (DM was 53% and required an AI DoT) and Doubles/ITN have a 90% NR check. We *can* debuff your NR by high amounts, but the nano for it is on a lengthy line cooldown and if you let us cast it more than once on you without attacking us.. well.. you're doing things wrong.

NT's cannot use Nullity Sphere while choosing to use such an offensive set of abilities (Doubles and Delayed Nukes). They still have Aegis. During Aegis a NT has 24 seconds to cast enough things to kill whatever he's attacking after which he's an easy kill for 35 seconds. To further make this "glassy", Aegis is on a heavy damage to nano ratio and the full alpha of an offensive character will go through the 28-30k nano a NT has with ease while still taking our low HP down a few thousand, too!

I'll use shade as an example here as I'm very familiar with it. I haven't played my 220 agent in a while and need to adjust to the 18.7 changes.. but I've seen them in action and they got a much deserved boost and perform rather well these days, too!

A properly executed alpha from stealth with Disorientate+SA+FA+Impale+Gore+Hecatomb does more damage than our alpha in a similar amount of time. Add in BS if the target's attacking someone else for somewhere around 16-20k PvP damage. Possibly more.. that's WITH a guaranteed stun and with the option to have Limber/DoF up and a much higher static defense than a NT would ever have.
Shades can also heal with SC and/or SHD, on top of all this offensive power.

Now for some extra fun stuffs:

Suppose you go all-out on your alpha against a NT in Aegis. What happens? Do you actually know? Let's assume a 14k HP, 30k Nano NT (which the majority of PvP NT's should be close to but not quite there..)

It lasts 25seconds, 24 of which you're going to be taking damage from the NT for as casting other things is a waste of time during Aegis.
For every second Aegis is up, NT's lose 500 nano.
For every 1000 damage you deal, NT's lose 150hp and 1275 Nano.

Two paths to kill a NT - Wait out the 24seconds by kiting, rooting, snaring, hiding, whatever.. then go all in on DPS as for the next 35 seconds the NT will have low nano (or have to use a cooldown to get it back) and will, for sure, have no great defenses up as NS2 is locked out and Aegis is on CD.

Feeling outrageously confident? Burst through the Aegis with ~18-20k PvP damage (enough to eat up our nanopool and get our hp down quite a bit), leaving the NT with no nano and THEN finish the NT off easily since both attacking and defenses will be nerfed. Not everyone can/should do this as it'll be risky, but I've had some shades, agents and soldiers do this to me in BS. It doesn't always work, but it's sort of not supposed to as you're basically ignoring all tactics and dumping raw damage instead.
You'll need around 15-16k more PvP damage if the NT has IW up and chooses to spend it. It's a gamble, but if you happen to have a highly offensive profession with a lot of perks and maybe a swap for extra capping specials it's definitely worth going for. E-Peen status is huge.

Again, I'm up for doing this in-game with whomever wants to learn NT's and how to fight them as long as I have the free time from work for it. PM me on forums or /tell me directly in-game if you're interested. I'll optionally stream the NT's side on Twitch so you can see how it looks from both ends. No tricks, just facts and in-game mechanics practice.

Seriously, get a grip. There is ONE serious honest issue with NT's right now in PvP, which is that when there's a NT and several other people bunched together/in a team, the NT's Pierce Reflect will let everyone else also pierce them. This mostly affects Soldiers and Defensive Focus NT's but it also will affect everyone with RRFE and similar effects on. It should, at most, only benefit NT's... and ideally only benefit the caster.

I'm VERY tired of these threads. People do zero research, don't experiment things with NT's, don't back up their claims with any sort of real information and just come here asking for nerfs.. and feel justified in asking for them. It's amazing.

A final note goes for the RRFE + Shields issue, which is an interesting one and one I've devoted some testing time to recently:

Numbers from my 220/30/70 betas+295+CC Soldier using Rhat'Ata+Envy of the Xan hitting my NT with Superior Nanobot Shelter up:

Full Auto without RRFE, 10 hits: 2743hp/1006 nano each. Consistent, every single hit was the same.
Burst without RRFE, 10 hits: 2163 1442 2163 2163 2163 1442 2163 1442 2163 2163. Averages out to 1947hp and 714 nano.
Fling/Normal hit without RRFE, 10 hits: 721hp/264nano hit, 1240hp/375nano crit

Full Auto with RRFE, 10 hits: 2743hp/1006 nano each. Consistent, every single hit was the same. - NO DIFFERENCE in having RRFE here. Something to take into consideration, for sure. It surely may take more bullets to cap it but I didn't notice and it would be a too time consuming test. I really have little problem capping it, so shouldn't a PvP soldier in endgame gear/level.
Burst with RRFE, 10 hits: 1010 1515 1515 1515 1010 1010 1515 1515 1515 1010. Averages out to 1313hp and 555 nano. A clear difference of about 30%, as expected.
Fling/Normal with RRFE, 10 hits: 505/185nano hit, 869hp/319nano crit. Same as Burst's difference per hit. No surprises there.

This means that capping hits such as non-support class AS, FA, SA, BS and any huge perks (anything over ~5k pvp damage) won't actually be affected by the NT getting RRFE from a Soldier, while smaller hits and perks will. Something to take into consideration when planning to hit a NT, for sure.. but hardly OP or game breaking when compared to the benefit other professions get from the same buff.


I do think my numbers are on-point but I'm glad to see them corrected if I blundered something up.
I'll try leave the rest up to Vinkera here, in case I forgot something.

NOTHING beats practicing in-game. Don't go by these numbers alone.. please spend some time in-game practicing these things. It'll help you more than any misinformed forum post ever will.

[sultryvoltron]

@sultryvoltron and Aiken: You seem to know VERY little about how NT's actually operate nowadays and about what was said in the latest NT nerf threads. This makes it nearly impossible for you to be "fair" on the subject since your lack of knowledge will betray you at some point. "Feeling" a profession is overpowered is just not enough to warrant nerfing it.

Lots and lots of paper pvp.

What makes you think that? I haven't said a single incorrect thing about 18.7 NTs in this thread or any other. I choose my claims carefully.

I also think the collective experiences of many excellent PvPers is more than just a "feeling" of OP.

You're defending your main and there are lots of incorrect things said about NTs, I agree. That doesn't mean that NTs didn't perhaps get a tad overtuned by 18.7.

[Vinkera]

I mean it's not a big deal. Everyone does it. You will likely not find a single post on these forums that says "The profession that I main and care the most about is too strong and I wish it was weaker".

I should direct you to read my other posts, then.

There's a reason NT's aren't carrying pistols around, and a reason you're no longer in a completely black screen when blinded by us. I asked for those things to happen, and made some NT players quite unhappy with me by doing so. I also acknowledged Soldier complaints, where you posted. If anyone goes out of their way to address issues with other professions, it's me. But, if I'm not given a serious response, I don't really entertain it, which is more than fair on my part.

Right away, I didn't take this thread seriously. The OP was... not specific, providing inaccurate information, and immediately criticizing my methods for posting on the forum. If you look at it that way, why would/should I take that seriously?

Many NTs on BS are doing very well, not because they play particularly cleverly but because the damage output is staggering. There's little kiting, no blinds, rarely roots; just nuke until one of you dies.

The issue with that, is NT's are not particularly fast, anyone can break roots, and blinds may not be viable depending on who you're against. Actually, "just nuke until one of you dies" is the whole idea behind a glass cannon.

In general, the issue I have with all your posts is that you're now mentioning two completely different topics, and trying to bundle them into one "problem"... Damage and survivability. Also, I follow the forum pretty closely, and other than Soldiers, no one has said much of anything regarding NT's, so I'm not sure where this massive epiphany is coming from. When 18.7 wasn't live yet, we were tested pretty throughly, and progress was covered extensively, by me. It's not like anything you're seeing now is a surprise.

What we're talking about, is a low HP, low evade, low HD, slow profession with no healing capability at all, but your posts are not specific on what issues you're having actually are. Who is having a problem, and what is it? No one has bothered approaching me about it, other than Burgly in game, and I decided to pop in on the Soldier threads and talk to them about it. We had a nice chat, I've sent off the agreed upon decision, and hopefully we see a change in the future that makes their PVP experience more enjoyable, but at the end of the day, both sides are happy.

Listen, no profession is perfect, but posts like these don't really provide anything helpful. Someone gets nerfed, then un-nerfed, then re-nerfed... but that doesn't really solve anything, does it? Give me something to work with, or I don't consider it a legit problem. Soldiers did... "When you use Pierce Reflect, I get gang zerged to death in AMS."... ok! Only the caster should benefit from Pierce Reflect. Some Soldiers may not be totally content with that, but neither will some NT's.

So, no, I'm not just throwing around numbers and buzzwords in the NT forum, I'm actually interested in proper balance. Again, give me specific issues, situational descriptions, and whatever else you've got. We can work out issues like adults, but I don't read minds, so I need information.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

The issue with that, is NT's are not particularly fast, anyone can break roots, and blinds may not be viable depending on who you're against. Actually, "just nuke until one of you dies" is the whole idea behind a glass cannon.

I think you're kind of missing the point.

The point he's making is that NT's don't even need to root, kite, blind etc. They can just crank so much damage in such a short period of time that very few profs can withstand an NT for any period of time.

In prior game versions NT's were powerful, but they were limited to being a true glass cannon - true to form and moniker even as being "triple nubs". Being a "triple nub" meant you had little else to fall back on if you didn't kill an opponent within the first/second cast.

On the other side of the coin, you had guys playing the much more elegant defensive game which involved isolation, rooting, and gradually wearing down an opponent through tactical and strategic play.

What we're seeing in 18.7 is NT's taking not just 3 steps forward and two steps back, but three steps forward and no steps back (granted, many profs have had marginal to significant healing boosts as well, so in some ways things are balanced, or more closely balanced than what some people are saying), which is resulting in people noticing the firepower.

Put it this way: NT's NEEDED to root/isolate in 18.6 in order to survive long enough to make a kill, whereas, in 18.7 NT's have so much firepower that most profs simply don't live long enough to even PRESSURE the NT into using any defences.

And I think this is really the core of the problem, if you can kill your opponent through his defences (through coon, through AMS, through DOF, through DA, through blockers, etc.) before he even knows he's under attack (notably leading with a delayed nuke?), the NT has a weird ganker-esque stealth feel to it these days which is not only extraordinarily powerful, but gives almost zero reaction time.

The less reaction time afforded paired with brutal, almost sustained burst magnitudes of damage, is quite clearly, in most people's eyes, overpowered. Evidence? look at how many NT's are playing in BS at any given time.

[DigitalBath]

What makes you think that? I haven't said a single incorrect thing about 18.7 NTs in this thread or any other. I choose my claims carefully.

I also think the collective experiences of many excellent PvPers is more than just a "feeling" of OP.

You're defending your main and there are lots of incorrect things said about NTs, I agree. That doesn't mean that NTs didn't perhaps get a tad overtuned by 18.7.

Surely the experience of PvP NT's such as myself counts as well. The vast majority of things said about NT's are flat out wrong and what you ignorantly described as "paper pvp" was simply proving many common claims wrong with how things actually work. You can't show actual PvP on a forum post or believe me, I would. Videos can be edited / made to cater to specific results without getting anywhere real. Math and basic information about how skills work has the advantage of being confirmable in-game, something I encourage and offer assistance for.

I'm defending my main, yes. But contrary to your misinformed statements, we're not blind to the need to nerf parts of our toolset when they are OP.

There actually were several nerfs with 18.7 to parts of our toolset, many of them asked for and agreed upon by the NT Professional and the NT community. Not all was 100% agreed upon but it did happen and had Vinkera's approval. Here's some of it, to the best of my recollection:

- Nanobot Guard/Shielding no longer carries the option of a hugely powerful 100% nano damage increase and was renamed to Aegis.
- For the majority of NT's (Nanomage) Nanobot Aegis carried a slight nerf. We take 5% more damage on HP compared to before. This makes late activation of Aegis with a VERY punishable consequence since we still take considerable HP damage. Again, high alpha professions profit from this the most.
- Triples were replaced by a single delayed nuke that needs proper timing to use correctly by comparison. It also allows the target to see the alpha coming through a huge nano effect and prepare defense/healing/etc accordingly. Even a simple stun can do wonders.
- Doubles were nerfed, albeit slightly, in damage.
- Blind's black screen effect was removed (something many Soldiers cried about for a long time and when it finally happened suddenly became silent about).. NT's nanopool buff was removed, in trade we have a nano with cooldown that gives us 20k nano.. bit of a 50-50 in terms of nerf/boost because it confuses opponents a bit when we do use it during Aegis.
- Garuk's has a higher NR check than DM used to. Not everyone really cares about this, but some people I do need to land 2xCB in order to land nanos effectively. That takes me at least 10 seconds to accomplish.
- Superior Nanobot Shelter was nerfed for the majority of NT's (Nanomage NT's). It now takes 15% more nano away when we take damage. (Remains the same for soli/opi, was boosted for the obviously rare Trox)

I'm sure there's more but I'm tired of listing nerfs here. But I'm sure you got the picture.

Where are your factually correct and verifiable statements regarding overpowered numbers and mechanics? Things that actually warrant nerfing. Something that can actually counter anything that's said in defense of NT's? That's the question for me.

[DigitalBath]

I think you're kind of missing the point.

The point he's making is that NT's don't even need to root, kite, blind etc. They can just crank so much damage in such a short period of time that very few profs can withstand an NT for any period of time.

In prior game versions NT's were powerful, but they were limited to being a true glass cannon - true to form and moniker even as being "triple nubs". Being a "triple nub" meant you had little else to fall back on if you didn't kill an opponent within the first/second cast.

On the other side of the coin, you had guys playing the much more elegant defensive game which involved isolation, rooting, and gradually wearing down an opponent through tactical and strategic play.

What we're seeing in 18.7 is NT's taking not just 3 steps forward and two steps back, but three steps forward and no steps back (granted, many profs have had marginal to significant healing boosts as well, so in some ways things are balanced, or more closely balanced than what some people are saying), which is resulting in people noticing the firepower.

Put it this way: NT's NEEDED to root/isolate in 18.6 in order to survive long enough to make a kill, whereas, in 18.7 NT's have so much firepower that most profs simply don't live long enough to even PRESSURE the NT into using any defences.

And I think this is really the core of the problem, if you can kill your opponent through his defences (through coon, through AMS, through DOF, through DA, through blockers, etc.) before he even knows he's under attack (notably leading with a delayed nuke?), the NT has a weird ganker-esque stealth feel to it these days which is not only extraordinarily powerful, but gives almost zero reaction time.

The less reaction time afforded paired with brutal, almost sustained burst magnitudes of damage, is quite clearly, in most people's eyes, overpowered. Evidence? look at how many NT's are playing in BS at any given time.

The reaction time point I can get. But that's the thing with AO's PvP. How's your reaction time vs. a Shade leading with a stun from stealth? Or an Agent? I like the twitchy pvp style AO has and favor it over other titles' "massively long never-ending 1v1 / 2v2 / 3v3 / 5v5 battles!". Each to his own there.

As for this:

Put it this way: NT's NEEDED to root/isolate in 18.6 in order to survive long enough to make a kill, whereas, in 18.7 NT's have so much firepower that most profs simply don't live long enough to even PRESSURE the NT into using any defences.

That's just incorrect. Many NT's use Defensive Focus in BS these days and those don't have access to the amount of damage you've mentioned. The ones that do choose Offensive Focus are VERY EASILY pressured into using at least Aegis, which gives them 25s to kill you as soon as they pop it or they'll likely be dead. (note that there's many ways to counter this, I'm tired of mentioning them)
If a second strong target pops up during/after Aegis the NT is toast if the people involved know what they're doing.

[Vinkera]

What we're seeing in 18.7 is NT's taking not just 3 steps forward and two steps back, but three steps forward and no steps back (granted, many profs have had marginal to significant healing boosts as well, so in some ways things are balanced, or more closely balanced than what some people are saying), which is resulting in people noticing the firepower.

Put it this way: NT's NEEDED to root/isolate in 18.6 in order to survive long enough to make a kill, whereas, in 18.7 NT's have so much firepower that most profs simply don't live long enough to even PRESSURE the NT into using any defences.

And I think this is really the core of the problem, if you can kill your opponent through his defences (through coon, through AMS, through DOF, through DA, through blockers, etc.) before he even knows he's under attack (notably leading with a delayed nuke?), the NT has a weird ganker-esque stealth feel to it these days which is not only extraordinarily powerful, but gives almost zero reaction time.

Although, post DM nerf, NT's weren't really a damage profession, but now we are. Should a damage profession have to play out a careful kill, or crush someone with brute force? Well, the tricky part is, we can do either.

I see the "ganker-esque" feel is more like, kill or be killed. If someone's not ready for an NT to show up and they do, they will probably die. If an NT's not ready for someone else to show up and they do, the NT will probably die. That aspect goes both ways, and an Offensive Focus NT has quite a bit of downtime where that's the case. Also, if an NT is ganged up on, it is easily possibly to cripple them with their own defense, referring specifically to Nanobot Aegis. The same is true of NS2, as it limits movement substantially, and it's much more difficult to take someone out in defensive focus. 20 seconds goes by pretty quick.

I think a big part of the "problems" I'm hearing are from people who don't really understand all the changes made, and that dealing with an NT is somewhat more of a tactical thing now. I guess it can be considered a reversal of roles in some ways.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

ya, I get the twitchy PVP thing.

I personally see no problem with NT's currently. I feel they are strong, but they aren't unstoppable. Any 1 vs 1 fight I'd put my money on NT if both parties have all CD's up. in Any 1 vs 1 which turns into 2 vs 2, the NT will go down first just because of threat level.

In any team situation, NT is fine paired with ANY other prof other than NT. They really are a significant threat, but, healing is also very powerful. in my box with zazen MA+advy, or hell, even if you just took zazen MA and advy out of the box, and said ok lets pit two healers vs two NT's, you could do pretty decently and it would be a pretty even fight as long as the NT's didn't synchronize.

The problem is obviously with teamed NT's. How many profs can withstand two+ NT's?

Not to point out the obvious, but engi has TEAM special blockers. there is no such defence vs NT's and I think that's where a lot of the complaints are coming from. There are simply so many NT's around that it's hard to find HP that's lasting longer than a few seconds.. it's like a race to eat as much red as you can.

When you put two advy in a team, ya, the blockers disappear fast, ya, they got a lot of heals, but at least you survive long enough to heal once/twice/pop a cH, pop a defence, hit one of them a few times, do some damage and hopefully an ally shows up to help you. Vs two NT's who are actually spamming damage you got <5s to live, not even 5s to pop defences and assess the threat... but <5s to LIVE no matter what you do.

[DigitalBath]

ya, I get the twitchy PVP thing.

I personally see no problem with NT's currently. I feel they are strong, but they aren't unstoppable. Any 1 vs 1 fight I'd put my money on NT if both parties have all CD's up. in Any 1 vs 1 which turns into 2 vs 2, the NT will go down first just because of threat level.

In any team situation, NT is fine paired with ANY other prof other than NT. They really are a significant threat, but, healing is also very powerful. in my box with zazen MA+advy, or hell, even if you just took zazen MA and advy out of the box, and said ok lets pit two healers vs two NT's, you could do pretty decently and it would be a pretty even fight as long as the NT's didn't synchronize.

The problem is obviously with teamed NT's. How many profs can withstand two+ NT's?

Not to point out the obvious, but engi has TEAM special blockers. there is no such defence vs NT's and I think that's where a lot of the complaints are coming from. There are simply so many NT's around that it's hard to find HP that's lasting longer than a few seconds.. it's like a race to eat as much red as you can.

When you put two advy in a team, ya, the blockers disappear fast, ya, they got a lot of heals, but at least you survive long enough to heal once/twice/pop a cH, pop a defence, hit one of them a few times, do some damage and hopefully an ally shows up to help you. Vs two NT's who are actually spamming damage you got <5s to live, not even 5s to pop defences and assess the threat... but <5s to LIVE no matter what you do.

I get that..

The problem is that it's nearly impossible to nerf the 2-NT scenario without nerfing the 1 NT scenario to oblivion or making multiple NT's in a pvp team useless/a serious downside.
I also would imagine 2+ Shades or Agents to be something you can't reliably defend against even with an engineer around these days. The sheer perk damage and crits from the normal shots would pop the engi down quickly through any defenses.. the 2nd team mate would be dead soon after. Let me know if you've experienced otherwise, though.
I use Shade/Agent as a point of reference since they are high alpha professions with relatively low drawbacks to their offensive power.

Stuns and Fears also come to mind here. They may be the quickest and most effective counter to a multi-NT offense these days.

The best we could come up with so far is to help things out and make Pierce Reflect affect only Rad damage. This makes it so other professions won't benefit from it which is fair.
Ideally it would be changed so only the caster's damage Pierces through but that may not be possible with AO's current nano mechanics.

As for any organized team effort to take down a team of NT's (with or without multiboxing)... There's always NR8 as a last-ditch effort. It fully negates a NT's toolset in a rather unique and powerful way.

[sultryvoltron]

If someone's not ready for an NT to show up and they do, they will probably die. If an NT's not ready for someone else to show up and they do, the NT will probably die.

Agents and Shades are getting tossed around in this thread as if the three professions are comparable. Here's the main reason that they are not:
For an Agent or Shade to be able to deliver their devastating alphas they need to be able to land perks on people which operate on pass/fail checks. Thus, the most optimal ganking setups are max AR which significantly reduces the defense of both professions. They have to make serious gear/perk/setup changes to be effective in an offensive or defensive setup. Once you know that an Agent is in a certain setup you have the power of knowledge and can make adjustments accordingly because they are locked into that setup.

This is not true for NTs. The optimal Offensive Focus setup is essentially the same as the optimal Defensive Focus setup. An NT makes no gear/equipment sacrifices to switch from Offense to Defense Focus. They go from one of the top alphas in the game to one of the top defenses in the game by waiting 2 minutes. In duels they can easily select the preferred Focus based on who they are fighting, and they have the ability to throw a curveball from one duel to the next. In BS you can expect that they will be offensive focus from a previous round only to find that they are now using defensive focus. You can no longer rely on your knowledge of NT players' setups to optimize your play.

You can say a thousand times the ways to kill an offensive or defensive focus NT, but you cannot implement these strategies until the NT has already started their nuke cycle. Pre 18.7 you could tell which Focus they were using by checking their NCU. That wasn't fair, but it at least gave information that is no longer reliably available.

That is why I believe the lockout on Offensive and Defensive Focus is too short.

- Garuk's has a higher NR check than DM used to. Not everyone really cares about this, but some people I do need to land 2xCB in order to land nanos effectively. That takes me at least 10 seconds to accomplish.

You don't actually believe what you're saying here do you? Previously you had to land a 100% check nano to get any damage out of DM at all. Now you only have to land one 75% nuke. I legitimately was surprised you listed this as a nerf.

Many NT's use Defensive Focus in BS these days and those don't have access to the amount of damage you've mentioned.

So if the majority of people think NTs do too much damage, and many of those NTs are actually in Defensive Focus, how does that help your argument that NT damage is fine?

Where are your factually correct and verifiable statements regarding overpowered numbers and mechanics? Things that actually warrant nerfing. Something that can actually counter anything that's said in defense of NT's? That's the question for me.

Here's some data for you, let's take a look at some of the emergency defensive nanos of various professions:

• Advy: Hide of the Cerberus (500 AAD, 18s duration, 2 min lockout); Invocation of the Phoenix (CH, 1 min lockout)
• Agent: Slip Away (700 AAD/NR, 15s duration, 2 min lockout); Complete Healing (CH, 30s lockout)
• Bureaucrat: Take the Bullet (8000 absorb, 500 AAD, -3k Nanoskills, 30s duration, kills pet)
• Fixer: Expeditious Evacuation (Grid, 1 min lockout); Instantaneous Encoding (Team Grid, 2 min lockout)
• Meta Physicist: Sacrificial Shielding (100% DTP, 20s duration, 3m lockout)
• Shade: Smokebomb (Sneak, 5m lockout)
• Soldier: Augmented Mirror Shield (82% reflect, 10% increased healing, 80s duration, 2 min lockout)
• Trader: Your Enemy's Enemy is your Friend (15,000 heal and nano, 2 min lockout)
• Nano Technician: Nullity Sphere Mk II (100% reflect, 20s duration, 1 min lockout)

As you can see, NS2 cools down as fast or faster than most other emergency defense nanos. The effect is very similar to Sacrificial Shield, but it cools down in 1/3rd of the time. It gives more reflects and cools down faster than AMS5, although the duration is much shorter (do fights even last 80s in PvP?).

Now, we could argue which defensive effect is the best, or which is the most deserving of a long lockout. I think it is clear. NS2 is one of the best defensive nanos in the game with a very strong effect and a very low cooldown.