Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 70

Thread: Zazen again

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    I did just fine with a X1-R4 + Tonfa on testlive - like, I'm talking I won about 150 duels and lost maybe 10 - and that was with syndicate brain in so I didn't have an ideal IP distribution and couldn't even use top heals.

    To be honest, I'm completely boggled why MA's on live still haven't picked up on the fact that MA's will perform way better without swaps.

    The best setup right now is tonfa+X1R4 bar none for 1 vs 1 PVP. For mass PVP you can do Tonfa+X1R4 or ranged.

    For real mass PVP/healer role/tower wars, I'd go all out ranged since you capitalise on all the natural debuffs of zazen which align exactly with the mechanistic 100% crit resistance on towers.

    That said, MA's still have by far and away the fastest by miles and miles the hardest hitting instantaneous alpha using tonfa+X1R4,and again, I am totally bewildered as to why people aren't using it.

    like, the X1 R4 was gift from the gods when paired with tonfa, but if you try to swap it, the whole MA efficiency is just shot to hell.

    I beat advy/sold/doctor/keeper/NT/trader/enforcer can't remember others off hand, but I got my ass handed to me like 8 duels in a row by agent (gg srompu).

    Basically I found that you can play very offensively, but in an ad hoc manner: just keep defensive cycles going, and as soon as FOL lands, drop ES/delirium red dusk/incap/brawler perks/ and spam all damage flurry/fist winter flame/controlled dmg (SA/fast attack/brawl/tears/crave/feast/sai fung (or dimach)/UWOS/other perks if not dead.

    honestly, I stopped playing MA on test because it was easymode. Everyone on test agreed the changes were significant and the only reason we thought it was balanced was because MA was still limited to melee range in real PVP and with that melee setup you couldn't do well in mass PVP, 1 vs 1 PVP, and zazen PVP.

    It was goddamn strong in 1vs 1 PVP though, holy hell.
    Twink your MA on live and I'll show you how strong you are. Guess the people on test had no idea how to play adv/NT if they lost to you.
    Anyhow, MAs are okay in duels and the new requirements of heals will be nice. Can actually play without zazen more if you can self the
    top heals. For TMoK we sadly have to drop some AR At least I have to do so on opifex.
    Last edited by Paavalniemi; Jun 10th, 2015 at 20:38:59.

  2. #42
    Do you guys actually use FoB (at PvP) even if it means to keep it equipped nowadays?

    I'm somewhat eager to try out that triple wield thing tbh, I may come back for a month soon.
    Last edited by Soliartist; Jun 10th, 2015 at 19:20:56.
    Angevil, proud 220 MA from Rimor.
    Flourishing anew. About twelve GUI/Perk/Armor setups done so far, hopefully that one will outlast the criticism of my perfectionism!

    Ars Magna. Histories became artifacts, images of poor effect, memories filled with acts and neglect
    As a vulture of cultures I indeed feed my seeds with much greed, soaked in pleasure I succeed

  3. #43
    I just swap it on and off when it's ready to use. I tend to have a infused Defender in Util 1 so it just right clicks back on saving me a second of swap time.

  4. #44
    Alright, thanks!
    Angevil, proud 220 MA from Rimor.
    Flourishing anew. About twelve GUI/Perk/Armor setups done so far, hopefully that one will outlast the criticism of my perfectionism!

    Ars Magna. Histories became artifacts, images of poor effect, memories filled with acts and neglect
    As a vulture of cultures I indeed feed my seeds with much greed, soaked in pleasure I succeed

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Paavalniemi View Post
    Twink your MA on live and I'll show you how strong you are. Guess the people on test had no idea how to play adv/NT if they lost to you.
    Anyhow, MAs are okay in duels and the new requirements of heals will be nice. Can actually play without zazen more if you can self the
    top heals. For TMoK we sadly have to drop some AR At least I have to do so on opifex.
    No can do. my MA is ranged for zazen healing in war. It felt horrible doing it since I knew how strong trip wield was, but I chose my venue and went all out. I don't regret it, but it would be nice to have a melee MA.

  6. #46
    That only means your previous posts about unbeatable ma is a lie?
    :: Izolenta :: Kynopoc :: Dreamech :: Dreamchaser :: Batmobile ::

    President of Molotoff Cocktail

    Playing since 2002/06/26

  7. #47
    If we wanna talk about such things, honestly, considering there's always room for improvement and that we are perfectible MA players, it's already decent to "maintain" a ratio of 2.
    When you manage to set that average ratio and (at least) stick to it through 1500 duels, ending up with something like 1000 victories and 500 losses, you can consider your performance to be decent.

    And you can check that out for your solo/team kills/deaths as well, not only for duels.

    It's not the most relevant thing to point out, those are just figures, but it definitely means something.
    Of course, you can achieve a way better ratio than that, but I'd say that it's in the long run (past 2K duels in all) that it really counts.
    Then again it is just what it is: a ratio. One of the most abstract/shortened way to summarise countless different situations!

    IIrc I had something like 1900/900 on Ange. I can say that about 100 of my victories and probably 300/400 of my losses were "flawed".
    I do believe 3/1 is what I managed to achieve throughout all these years, with probably 6-1 peaks during my PvP prime which lasted about two years, average good scores (3-1) when I was still playing though at a more peaceful rate, and (much) worse scores sometimes negative or even (1-1) after my several break-'n-returns all-in PvP flavours.

    Honestly, I don't believe 3 to be an impressive average ratio, but I know that's also me not being cool 'cause I had such insane kill streaks during my prime that I'm sure I could have done much better than that at the end of the day.
    I'm still proud of what I achieved through 2007-2012 on a Solitus MA, most (about 75%) of the time not using Towers at all.

    When I started in mid-06, it took me a year and a half to be 220. Ange became 220 as a AI lvl 24 character.
    It then took me another year to achieve AI 30 (I was a somewhat lazy AXP grinder, especially 7 years ago).

    Anyway, all of this to say that, as a TL7 PvP MA, I personally enjoyed 2008-2010 the most. By far.
    Last edited by Soliartist; Jun 13th, 2015 at 21:31:58.
    Angevil, proud 220 MA from Rimor.
    Flourishing anew. About twelve GUI/Perk/Armor setups done so far, hopefully that one will outlast the criticism of my perfectionism!

    Ars Magna. Histories became artifacts, images of poor effect, memories filled with acts and neglect
    As a vulture of cultures I indeed feed my seeds with much greed, soaked in pleasure I succeed

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Izolenta View Post
    That only means your previous posts about unbeatable ma is a lie?
    I was on TL. not live.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Soliartist View Post
    If we wanna talk about such things, honestly, considering there's always room for improvement and that we are perfectible MA players, it's already decent to "maintain" a ratio of 2.
    Best you can do is strive to win any individual competition.

    If everyone tried to get 2:1 I guarantee half the people would fail miserably as long as consistent criterion were supplied.

  10. #50
    @ Mcknunckle: You said tripple wield is the best way to go. but there isnt the best way. Each way gives you pros against prof xy while the other helps you more in another situation. the AS you are loosing is high. And its not only the AS its also the Ice of Albtraums. Better think about that.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Rockleee View Post
    @ Mcknunckle: You said tripple wield is the best way to go. but there isnt the best way. Each way gives you pros against prof xy while the other helps you more in another situation. the AS you are loosing is high. And its not only the AS its also the Ice of Albtraums. Better think about that.
    Why think about it? I already tested it.

    Trip wield owned swapping MA hands down. I'm not considering changing setups, I don't have to consider anything.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    Why think about it? I already tested it.

    Trip wield owned swapping MA hands down. I'm not considering changing setups, I don't have to consider anything.
    "tested".. come pvp on live server.

  13. #53
    Have to report, here Zazen is helping me survive inferno like peach. lvl 202 now and not dying to much at all. Does take away 70% of my damage though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michizure View Post
    This'll be fixed for the next patch

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Paavalniemi View Post
    "tested".. come pvp on live server.
    umm I do?

    You'll note Clan has all TL7 sites right?

  15. #55
    There is better to discuss and produce as a rather inner circle than you guys just huddling together against McK's.

    He is also a former Professional whom spent time for you to have what you have today!

    As far as I'm concerned Knucles, I think you are a knowledgeable peep, despise the fact that you and I never really played the "same" way, I have seen you accumulating experience by playing different Professions at various Title Levels, even the lowest ones.

    No lecture meant but I also think that your "swapping PvP MA experience" somehow made you think you couldn't do any "better" and kinda gave up at some point, gave up on a playstyle I've always practised and fought for, but didn't give up as a player.
    If I were to express myself sincerely and wholly, I'd say you're a fair player, neither a quitter nor a follower.
    A player with his own state of mind, and that is rare enough to be appreciable.

    I repeat, we're not here to judge and discriminate each other!

    My own MA was built on a (surprisingly) faithful swapping PvP playstyle.
    I seeked to be good enough to consider playing a melee Profession PvP wise. I solely played TL7 (PvP) MA for years.
    I remember my own org mates (PvP Org peeps) trying to come up with a singular technique to take my MA down in a duel, I can also remember being kited a few times by other melee players (Shades, Advs, Keepers) back in the days.
    I wasn't invincible but I went far enough to be so bold as to be considered as such. I took part, at my own scale, of something I had inherited from my fellow MA predecessors.

    It's kind of a lone path to PvP with your own rules and expectations, especially when you exclusively practise solo PvP/PvM and really dislike RP, quests, farming in general.
    I was a solid PvP player most of the time and eventually achieved things you cannot do unless you're as bold as solid.
    A few memories: outnumbered open Bore PvP rampage (first time I spoke with Fazzeh), one-man (against a whole opposite faction standing there, not killing Tara) Tara-team gank (I only got Nstop149 but he must remember that one :-P), when you're fast, lucky, focused enough to really insta another 220 (A30) MA standing in midst of teams and teams of Omni people.
    Even though I preferred to let a duel last, I surely enjoyed sub 3-4s duel (victories) against great PvP players.

    Honestly, what I felt the most is that it was merely worth my investment.
    Because, yes, it does require a certain personal investment to hope to do exactly the right thing, in a way as personalised as possible.
    And a bunch of time, practise.

    Some of us are more recent members, PvMers/PvPers only, whatever breed(s) players and such.
    Everybody here deserves some respect.
    Last edited by Soliartist; Jun 17th, 2015 at 05:43:12.
    Angevil, proud 220 MA from Rimor.
    Flourishing anew. About twelve GUI/Perk/Armor setups done so far, hopefully that one will outlast the criticism of my perfectionism!

    Ars Magna. Histories became artifacts, images of poor effect, memories filled with acts and neglect
    As a vulture of cultures I indeed feed my seeds with much greed, soaked in pleasure I succeed

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Soliartist View Post

    As far as I'm concerned Knucles, I think you are a knowledgeable peep, despise the fact that you and I never really played the "same" way,
    We did play the same way. When I lived in Vancouver (prior to moving to Brisbane in 2009) I was playing MA only, my TL5 keeper was still horsing around in S10, and 98% of my effort was going to my MA. I finished my CC set in 2008, and upon completion, I dinged up AI 30 really quickly because there was some new way of getting AXP that was faster than ship raids - I was exclusively doing ship raids until my CC set was done... That whole time though I remember I was spending a lot of time PVPing, I remember duelling forz, Racs, healaura, marbreth, thermoglobule, flynicist, extersoold, danielka, scumtron, docci, Ody, chewy plus all the other guys who didn't stick around for so long.

    I remember this very well because I remember when the duel record was first introduced and the whole "duel" with the beacon and that, instead of us all hanging out in tir arena, and everyone hung out in front of battlestation area at the ICC landing pad. I remember being really enthused about it since it finally meant I would get a title other than novice. But it didn't go so well, this was back when I was still learning and I wasn't very good yet. At some point I looked at my duel record and I had about 90 losses and 15 wins. And that was when I realised I wanted a winning record or at least a more even record. So I started practicing very hard and asking everyone about PVP and tactics and all that. I did an IPR, and changed from only using a bow swap to using bow and SOFC and gradually I started to improve my wins/losses.

    I finally started to gain a bit and around the time when I had about 300 wins/350 losses, Xan launched, and basically a few profs got some very big boosts, PVP MA's didn't anything, And I remember that very clearly because every advy changed overnight to ranged and I went from having pretty good fights vs advy to getting wtf raped about 9/10 fights. Doc's got really strong really quick, fixers were everywhere with envy/OH, Anger soldiers were everywhere, and Omni was controlling every TL7 towersite. Clans were not doing well, and, mind you this was also before I'd learned about Eye of the predator, The awakening buff arrived sometime later - April 2009 - so not only was I rolling with 75 AAO/AAD less than my opponents were, but because the majority of people I was fighting had towers while I didn't, I was continually operating at anywhere between a 150 to 400 AR/DEF differential, which ultimately led to me being at a significant disadvantage especially considering I was operating an evader.

    After xan launched, I had just finished moving to Australia, and the first thing I noticed was that ping here was significantly retarded compared to ping in Vancouver, like, swapping on MA was so slow that it was actually not feasible to play that way. What would take me 4s in Vancouver (queue bluntness/feast/Brawl/tear/swap/AS/alb arrows/swap/swap/SA/dimach (note I didn't have any keys hotkeyed, I was doing everything by mouseclick), would take about 10-12s in Brisbane. That prompted me to give up MA for PVP, and forced me to consider the inability to swap in PVP, and this meant, if I wanted to PVP in AO, I needed to choose a toon which I had more time to react with, AND didn't have to swap with. I started levelling Jetson in earnest to fill that roll. He was 150 at the time and I bolted for 220. For some time, I didn't even look at my MA. Later, since I didn't want to give up my favourite toon, I developed a setup that didn't require swapping:

    Tonfa + obfuscating dagger for SA

    The problems with this setup are numerous. Obfuscating dagger has low min damage, is melee init, has low crit, has long att/recharge, you can't get good AR with it which means a lot of your normal attacks have very low damage/miss, your crit rate is demolished due to using triple wield plus the crit on the obfuscating dagger looks like a heal HD tick on your opponent, and quite simply, the SA would barely scratch 1.5k damage on a good day.

    That setup didn't last long and after that I went ranged (the first time). I used CC instead of CSS, green hood for NR and 75 bow/EC/DR, 300 tiger MK6, and this setup was actually OK but I didn't practice enough with it, plus, I should have swapped out my Ofab pants but never did because for whatever reason I wanted the 75 MA contributing to MA AR to land red dusk. This setup actually had fairly reasonable potential, looking back, with NR1/NR2 both possible, reasonable evades, a huge AS, some solid init debuffs, but at that time the Bow perks were really shoddy, and there wasn't enough TL7 PVP to really contribute at a level where that setup would actually be valuable. In retrospect, it was a really bad time for me and I was really, fully disenchanted with MA's. It seemed there wasn't a single venue where MA's environmentally/ping constrained as I was, could perform at even a remotely good level. During this time I didn't do much duelling at all.

    I was tired of having a toon with finished research, AI 30 and every gadget / nodrop in the book sitting idle, so sometime in 2010 I swapped the CC on my MA with the CM set on my atrox melee advy, did another IPR and put him into a triple wield PVM setup. Finally, after 3 years of transition and frustration, I had found a use for him. He stayed in this setup for a long time, and since I had finished Jetson (engi), and politico (crat) and rodog (ranged advy) so I had a range of toons to use should there be a requirement. Plus, it was nice to have a dedicated PVM toon for offtanking/DPS type stuff.

    I kept my MA in trip weild setup for a long time, and when Zazen was announced I was sceptical, but when Michi took over and I tested Zazen on Testlive, I immediately saw the value in a ranged PVP setup, the congruities between the -100% crit debuff on zazen and 100% crit resist on towers was more than coincidence. And I immediately began reshaping my ideas for a ranged MA PVP healer, the obvious lack of damage would not be noticed since real strength lay in healing and a solid AS for scrimmages. I swapped him to a full CSS/bow setup this year and since then, while I really, truly wish I had the opportunity to do some triple wield X1-R4/tonfa PVP on the live server, it's just not on the cards for this toon at this time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Soliartist View Post
    I have seen you accumulating experience by playing different Professions at various Title Levels, even the lowest ones.

    No lecture meant but I also think that your "swapping PvP MA experience" somehow made you think you couldn't do any "better" and kinda gave up at some point, gave up on a playstyle I've always practised and fought for, but didn't give up as a player.
    If I were to express myself sincerely and wholly, I'd say you're a fair player, neither a quitter nor a follower.
    A player with his own state of mind, and that is rare enough to be appreciable.
    Indeed, I did give up on him, and it was a very sad time for me in AO. At my best, I was winning more than I was losing by a long shot, since I had recovered the large (huge gap) in my wins/losses and making steady gains towards having a winning record - alas, reality also forced it's own dictations upon what I was capable of.

    My experience at low levels is in fact quite limited. I have a tendency to build quite good twinks, then have no opportunity to play them on account of living in such a stupid timezone.

    My best twinks still command healthy respect nearly every time I log them. While I never achieved that same level of respect at TL7, I know that it wasn't lack of effort that was the primary cause and for that I'm satisfied with my own capability. If I had rolled an Omni adventurer and put in the same effort as I had in my MA, with the backing of years of TL7 towers at my back, and years of unprecedented power using the tro'aler, my duel record would be heavily skewed to the win column. But, what I did learn, which no other scenario could have taught me, is how to overcome incredible odds, and to fight bravely while staring defeat in the face.

  17. #57
    Thank you man. I knew about pretty much everything you said (until ~2010) because we talked it out in-game so many times.
    And I do remember you moving to another place and being disappointed not to be able to play your MA properly.
    At the time I tried to find a thousand reasons to make you continue by being a better PvP MA each day but there is nothing we could do about ping and such.
    I really tried hard by spreading hope on our forums.

    I think it's very important for our most recent players (and even others) to know what their contemporary players went through!

    Once again I fully support you McK's. You really are a good guy, with great empathy and rigour imo.
    Last edited by Soliartist; Jun 17th, 2015 at 21:06:45.
    Angevil, proud 220 MA from Rimor.
    Flourishing anew. About twelve GUI/Perk/Armor setups done so far, hopefully that one will outlast the criticism of my perfectionism!

    Ars Magna. Histories became artifacts, images of poor effect, memories filled with acts and neglect
    As a vulture of cultures I indeed feed my seeds with much greed, soaked in pleasure I succeed

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by McKnuckleSamwich View Post
    umm I do?

    You'll note Clan has all TL7 sites right?
    Only thing that annoyed me was you saying how you beat advs and NTs easily on your dual wield MA.
    pvping against a handful of clueless testers means nothing. If you ever pvp on live servers again send me a tell
    and I'll show you.. You might beat my NT if you perk NR8 but u will never even get close to killing my adv.

    And if all the pvp you do is multibox (Don't think you even had MA in that MB), just shows how much you know about MAs now.

    Also don't get me wrong, I think MAs are doing damn fine now but please stop the bull**** about your testserver duels.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Paavalniemi View Post
    Only thing that annoyed me was you saying how you beat advs and NTs easily on your dual wield MA.
    pvping against a handful of clueless testers means nothing. If you ever pvp on live servers again send me a tell
    and I'll show you.. You might beat my NT if you perk NR8 but u will never even get close to killing my adv.

    And if all the pvp you do is multibox (Don't think you even had MA in that MB), just shows how much you know about MAs now.

    Also don't get me wrong, I think MAs are doing damn fine now but please stop the bull**** about your testserver duels.
    Oh, I'm way out of the loop for 1 vs 1 PVP. I'd much rather simply use force multipliers. I do like running around in BS and stuff but my duelling days are longggg over.

    I promise I won't talk about duels on TL anymore if it makes you happy.

    I do agree that when you're playing against other people still sorting stuff out it won't give accurate feedback on relative power.

  20. #60
    What are zazen MA's like at endgame? Can they be a good alternative to docs in instances and raids? I like healing, but my doc is boring :P
    Rajib - 220 Shotgun Doctor | Businessraj - 220 Shotgun Trader | Nanquan 210+ MA | Blasi - 209 ME Keeper | Rajliana - 200 bow MA ++++++

    WTB Red and blue teams in BS. Thanks Michi!

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •