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Thread: Zazen again

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Bendaar View Post
    Indeed. There is no reason why I should. There is only the now. The past is past and doesn't influence the now.
    true. but neither did the former team. and they totally screwed up the whole profession, buffing others and not giving anything to balance it. and now, heal increase given is still not enough to fix broken profession. thats not about zazen. zazen has no usage in pvp atm, and ma actually didn't need <3 in pvm pre 18.7

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendaar View Post
    Stop acting like MAs are the only ones affected by the changes in 18.7. The game changed for everyone. But to answer your question : "Similar to how other people deal with these changes. Evolve or die."
    As I alrready wrote - MA's were broken pre 18.7 and post 18.7 doesn't fix us. It could fix if zazen was usable in pvp. But it's not. Thats why I'am asking for zazen changes - let us choose what to sacrifice: damage (crits/+dmg) or evades. But not BOTH of them.

    Well.. I'd like to hear active pvp-ing MA's, maybe I'am wrong? But we can only see some dudes saying 'once i saw a ma and he performed well'. Doesn't make sense.
    :: Izolenta :: Kynopoc :: Dreamech :: Dreamchaser :: Batmobile ::

    President of Molotoff Cocktail

    Playing since 2002/06/26

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Bendaar View Post
    If you're talking about PvP as you say, then UBT does indeed lasts for only 45s. Also, you are still ignoring that now you can use both the single and team heal one after the other, because your heals no longer put you in recharge for 8-11s.
    I think someone calculated old and new healing throughput here, but you chose to ignore that there as well.

    No im not ignoring, and yes ubt in pvp is different then pvm but i think your post was about pvm. And no im not ignoring it maybe you have missunderstood me or i didnt formulate myself well. im saying that im missing something as emergency heal. the higher healoutput is good but it isnt enought to survive alphas

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Izolenta View Post
    Aw. Nice. Calculations. I like them. Could you please find also calculations of damage dealt to MA pre and post LE? No? Because you never cared about it. How are we supposed to handle all that crap like increased pets ar, doubles/triples, 3.5+ common ar on most professions, decreased defensive checks on perks? With 50% increase of healing power? It's not enough.
    True thats why i am talking about the emergency heal of our old ring it was great and the heal in return helps for long fights but not as i already said for alphas. Only if you go zazen in pvp and do no dmg for sure

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendaar View Post
    Good !


    Indeed. There is no reason why I should. There is only the now. The past is past and doesn't influence the now.
    Only when people complain about "everything was better in the past" these comparisons are useful to demonstrate the fallacy.
    One of the worst nonsense i have ever read. Since when does the past never influence the now? omg i dont want to start a discussion about that but the whole life builds about the past think about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bendaar View Post
    Stop acting like MAs are the only ones affected by the changes in 18.7. The game changed for everyone. But to answer your question : "Similar to how other people deal with these changes. Evolve or die."
    The option is Die . Let me first tell you that there is more then that easy perspective that you got. The chages of 18.7 affected EVERY profession yes. But there are positive and negative affections. Lets say to the most profession there are ONLY positive affections (keeper deflect + nanoskills etc read patch notes). when it comes to the martial artists there are also a few buffs that we all have to admit and we all have to be thankful for (thanks michi really) but ma isnt playable in pvp as before.

    Let me give you an example. You can do both ways Zazen and no Zazen.
    let me try to explain how it feels and how it worked.

    Zazen allowes you to outheal ANY alpha with a first aid kit and your heals. but any alpha will hit you completly. So there is more room for other professions to kill MA more easy because of init debuffs and nanoskill debuffs ( because we relay on heals to much because we get hit to often). Other professions like advy or soldier are easy outhealable.
    I remember a loooong fight vs a soldier. I had zazen on because after a few duels i noticed that non zazen heal isnt enough even with timed stuns to delay his next as on his Silverback and Flower of life. when i turned that thing on i waited for his ams to run out and gave him the full alpha and he had 30% hp left. I tryed it again and again and finally after the 5th down of ams i canceled zazen and killed him. yes its away to kill him true but its also mega risky.

    So let me try to sum profs where you have chances and what would be best
    Advy: non zazen try to alpha through limber fast or die zazen will only turn into a never ending fight where one has 0 nanopool left. bet the MA is first
    Agent ( if he is mimic soldier ): Go zazen try to survive. even hard with the heal because of hotswapp insta dmg alpha (if mimic doctor ) alpha and done
    Crat: be lucky on autos on non zazen. Debuffs will kill your healoutput anyways
    Doctor: Much more easy then before thanks michi
    Enf: Honestly not sure if the enfs where gimps or not but easier as before.
    engi: Dont even try. Zazen you dont deal more dmg then heal delta i think and they just perk + pet dmg is enough to kill you no way to outheal that. Running non zazen even less chance because they gained even 2 auto blocker and more reflect
    fixer: if you go zazen it really ends up in a never ending fight until your mana runs out but if you have some support symbs on then it works on nanodelta and stims. If you want to win and not to annoy your opponent then you run non zazane and try to be lucky on as sa dimach and autos.
    Keeper: didnt duel any but i really belive that zazen would help in that fight when you turn if off after his alpha. if you start off fighting without zazen then the alpha will just crush you if their def is to high to stun.
    Ma: Mirror nothing to say here. zazen ma looses vs non zazen because of the debuffs
    MP: zazen is a clear loss because you can t relay on heals after nanoskill debuffs. Also you cant survive his dmg loong enough after the buffs from 18.7 to get dmg done to the mp and not to the pet. You dont even have to try
    NT: Zazen gives us a really clear win. Since the NT doesnt have any natural heal. This will just be a loooong fight but its clearly a 100% win for ma if he doesnt sleep.
    Shade: Go zazen and it doesnt end, because shades pvp dmg isnt high enough. From tests i know that the init debuff doesnt help also against ma. about nanodrainproc i cant give a comment but the normal leech line wasnt enough. Your dmg to shade is also too low to end a fight. so you dont benefit from it.
    Soldier: To much and the silverback is hurting too much aswell. If you do zazen then you are able to outheal but your alpha isnt enough to finish him after ams. 20 secs hitting and perking and specialing in zazen leave the soldier in arround 30 % hp. You have to turn it here of same as on agents.
    Trader: not tested but i think its more easy then before.

    So if you take all together lets say choosing that choice ( zazen) is an option to benefit from in some cases, but if you dont your way to win fights is to alpha your enemy before he does(and sometimes hope of lucky hits to def professions).
    So i hope to get changed is that the reduction is taken away because the to high attackrating is too mcuh for ma to handle on his evades sometimes. outhealing the dmg is a better way to deal with that, or the evades of the ma will have to get boosted hardly. Going in a def setup will make ma just loose against many professions.

    But again i hope that my other points which i mentioned before on other posts will not get overread by the defs and we get changes.
    Its seriously needed.
    Last edited by Rockleee; May 20th, 2015 at 21:05:22.

  4. #24
    I played a 150 MA at ado hecks last night. Toon is in mixed sub 200 implants and a couple symbs, so-so frooby/tier 3 armour and with enlightened healing touch and greater team restore essence I was able to totally fill the healing niche, even with a sub-par tank.

    Tank was alternating between another poorly equipped 150 MA (6.4k HP) and a so-so equipped 150 soldier (8300 HP).

    The most useful team members were a 139 keeper with updated nano aura and a 140 engineer using DVP.

    Team function, overall, was stellar. And we were totally able to do what we came to do: kill some hecks.

    Damage was a bit slow, but that's because 1 keeper was using a low QL kyr sword, the other was using a pained panther, MA fist damage against ado hecks isn't very good unless you have pretty solid static crit rating or trip wielding with highish kyr nunchakos, engi was using CDR's still, and only really soldier had a decent weapon (200 SPB).

    That said, everyone using the available tools meant that the zazen MA was well able to fill the healing role. No CH's needed, and the only challenge was nano management (which the second keeper helped greatly with).

  5. #25
    So true, though.
    PvP wise, Zazen is obviously a great healing source.
    But at the same time, it leaves us totally perkable by pretty much anybody with an equivalent equipment. How sad is that.
    Angevil, proud 220 MA from Rimor.
    Flourishing anew. About twelve GUI/Perk/Armor setups done so far, hopefully that one will outlast the criticism of my perfectionism!

    Ars Magna. Histories became artifacts, images of poor effect, memories filled with acts and neglect
    As a vulture of cultures I indeed feed my seeds with much greed, soaked in pleasure I succeed

  6. #26
    How about this? Zazen gives 150 nano skills when activated. So people don't cry about 1780 BM/SI requirement.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Transform View Post
    How about this? Zazen gives 150 nano skills when activated. So people don't cry about 1780 BM/SI requirement.
    a reasonable solution and won't make MA's OP in non-zazen.

  8. #28
    Zazen isn't that bad the way it is now. Can find use for it in duels and BS (if you team). However, it feels like we got 0 heals outside zazen now.
    HD is way lower than it used to be and the healing amount of the lower heals is a bit too low. Also I don't like the heal spamming we gotta do now,
    there's barely time for swapping when you try to keep HP up. Feels like playing a doc or adv instead of MA.

    All the other changes are sweet tho. MA would be perfect with the old heals now

  9. #29
    I have to admit healing in non-zazen was boosted and is better now.

    But would be nice to actually get the boosts other professions got (better evades buff, or maybe aad, futher FFOK improvement. dimach, riposte and parry buffs similar to keepers' ones)

    And PLEASE make equal amounts of BM/SI in researches already! Why the hell they were ever done not equal?
    :: Izolenta :: Kynopoc :: Dreamech :: Dreamchaser :: Batmobile ::

    President of Molotoff Cocktail

    Playing since 2002/06/26

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Izolenta View Post
    I have to admit healing in non-zazen was boosted and is better now.

    But would be nice to actually get the boosts other professions got (better evades buff, or maybe aad, futher FFOK improvement. dimach, riposte and parry buffs similar to keepers' ones)

    And PLEASE make equal amounts of BM/SI in researches already! Why the hell they were ever done not equal?
    Agreed.

    and on a zazen note.....100% crit decrease it really absurd. Should be more like 55% tops.
    Number
    Sliza
    Chewy

  11. #31
    anyone from testlive able to update us on progress and changes?
    :: Izolenta :: Kynopoc :: Dreamech :: Dreamchaser :: Batmobile ::

    President of Molotoff Cocktail

    Playing since 2002/06/26

  12. #32
    Zazen changes on test now: Modify CriticalIncrease -50, -lvl*2 to add. dmg/evade/duck/dodge (-440@220)

  13. #33
    seems decent. and heal reqs? researches are not adjusted i suppose, to give equal amount of nanoskills (guess it could be even average between current ones)
    Last edited by Izolenta; Jun 2nd, 2015 at 18:18:39.
    :: Izolenta :: Kynopoc :: Dreamech :: Dreamchaser :: Batmobile ::

    President of Molotoff Cocktail

    Playing since 2002/06/26

  14. #34
    Oh right, should have included that too. 1690 on Matrix, 1720 on Team Matrix. Return Attack also got boosted to 80 deflect/riposte, FFoK had a 150 dimach buff tacked onto it.

  15. #35
    nice changes
    :: Izolenta :: Kynopoc :: Dreamech :: Dreamchaser :: Batmobile ::

    President of Molotoff Cocktail

    Playing since 2002/06/26

  16. #36
    See. That's what commitment exists for.
    Angevil, proud 220 MA from Rimor.
    Flourishing anew. About twelve GUI/Perk/Armor setups done so far, hopefully that one will outlast the criticism of my perfectionism!

    Ars Magna. Histories became artifacts, images of poor effect, memories filled with acts and neglect
    As a vulture of cultures I indeed feed my seeds with much greed, soaked in pleasure I succeed

  17. #37
    Have to keep CoNC perked for the top heals and play without NR1
    Just got used to the new opi breed perks but guess the top heals are better...

  18. #38
    This inc post is completly pvp orientated:

    Yes indead heals are nice to have, but lets face the fact. we have 4 100% stuns, tons of dmg with swapps, lacking perk dmg, 100% stun resist, low evades (compared other profs AR in pvp), low heal (without zazen).
    Combine all those stuff together makes you two ways of playing MA.
    1) offensive
    2) pure defensive

    Now lets look at the offensive pros and cons:
    As fex MA on close to full off equippent you are arround 3.1-3.2 k AR. This lets you perk with the changes of 18.7 many profs ( crats + fixer+ Dual Shield MP impossible, shade havent tested yet). IF you are in a duel where healing is needed to survive some time, like soldier AMS, you start your duel with Zazen and click it after out. If not you hurry with stunlock + dmg and its easy as that. Now we get a little more profession specific. Facing a good advy, will turn his cocoon when he is getting too much dmg by using free movement to break the stun lock. A too long lasting duel will end up for the advy with his high constant as dmg. against Other proffessions the toolset is really nice and gives us much possibilities to start fights and finishing up.
    The problem on the offensive setup is the low healing amount + the low def you have got. Facing a good engineer , crat , fixer , mp will be painfull but there are still changes to win matches. Like using dot ring+ AR boosting with delirium and moonmist for autos, with a nice AS(bow of belith is nice for fex)/ SA with bow specc and maybe dimach will let you alpha your high def enemy good, or get them really low and finish of with second as. But if it starts to get a too long fight you are dead meat
    So its like a glasscanon with much ar but it really works often.

    Now the defensive way of playing MA. I liked that pre 18.7 much when i was Aitech 3 perked where the Mongorage meta was enorm, Going max def/evades and just evade everything .
    The only enemys you can beat as def MA are like enfos, soldiers, keeper, engi, agent. But even here it was sometimes hard to kill like enfs because the dmg was really lacking against their healing output. After loong time testing here and there both builds and discussions with kittle / grrrl / hellangle / hurrjaroope and so on, i firstly went offensive on my fex and then played as atrox.
    As trox i have seen a hughe advantage. The MAX HP you got. HAving that good hp made you easy to survive the perk dmg of mongorage user. yes you are more often perkable and yes the specials hit more capped , but the perk dmg stays constant and the higher your hp the less % you loose meaning having a nice hp pool gives you a nice timewindow to react. What i often did is just heal against their dmg with ring flower matrix both perks and stims. I didnt even pop evades for that

    Now if wanted to test the fex again after the changes. But before i start again with pvp i want the bow of belith in ql 300 and it doesnt dropp .

    EDIT: As I have calced What it would be looking like to go solitus with aipfbelt support chest + support head + capricorn ncu. I was lacking 4 points on BM on non conc to use TMOK.
    I would like to see TMOK decreased to the amount of MOK

    All what i wanted to say with that big post is that in MY opinion MA runs better with OFF SETUP Instead of a Def SETUP. Perking leads often to wins, because MA perks are not only dmg perks also debuffs + stuns are in there
    Last edited by Rockleee; Jun 6th, 2015 at 22:14:22.

  19. #39
    It's rather safe to assume that +160 MA Skill buff (+20 compared to the previous version of FFoK), 85% FoL and 90% Deli Duck-exp defensive Skill check (or so it seems? maybe depending on their QLs?) coupled with a brand new +150 AAO (+50 AAO) and +10% critical chance (+7%) Sphere buff and and even a tad more critical chance with new UVC (+4%) must be equal to a decent PvP rampage for MAs.

    Maybe that's my "Solitus: breed-of-all-choices" thing but, +70 AR, +11 critical chance, +10/15% of chance for your AAD debuff (FoL)/AAO self-buff (Deli) to land - all of this still sounds fairly solid to me.

    10/15% is more or less equal to a -250 to -375 close-combat evade debuff for most Professions using Limb, and a -310 to -465 one under DoF.
    On a 2,3K static close-combat Skill character. Yes, you also have a +600 buff to include from Limb to FoL but that's not what I'm on about.
    All of that is equivalent to a +320/445 +380/535 AR boost for our attacks/perks to land, so to speak; just to sum it up quickly.
    Coupled with +11% critical chance I can clearly say I just wish it ain't a dream.

    Now our top Healing Nanos are rather castable and Zazen only debuffs 50% of our crit chance. That's only a 39%(50-11), say, a third, crit chance loss compared to what I had pre 18.7. under alpha stance.

    Apparently Zazen also debuffs 440 Evade Skills (-420 in comparison to pre 18.7 because of new FoR), that doesn't make DoF ineffective against most (non-MR users) Profs at all, even under a balanced off/def setup.
    Apart from that, under Limb only, it's definitely perkable rather easily, especially against ranged Perks.

    Anvil fists being "fixed", we do lose damage because of Zazen but should be now able to use our dmg more efficiently.

    I didn't get if we'll have a lvl*2 MA Skill debuff too but that would make my MA attacks a tad less landable than they were before under Limber (not even for the 85% one).

    That's just it.
    To me it'd mean to remain unperkable under DoF against non-MR players, barely less able to land my MA Attacks/Perks than pre 18.7 (I know I'm not including other Professions' new buffs and such, just a global note), dealing less damage but our fists damage should have been/be (is it done yet?) increase(d) and Anvil Fists now allows us to use melee damage properly.
    With a third less critical chance. Not too horrific.

    I think it's a pretty decent deal when I come to think about it on my own MA. For such healing capacity, it must be definitely worth it. Hands down!



    Well, about MoK/TMoK Nano Skills requirements which already received a nice tweak, seems like you can always manage another BM NCU (either Virgo's Practical Spirit Helper ((+6)) or a LoX BM-Skill-only NCU ((+5)) for the matter! that is if you can afford to drop your Infused Morphing Memory (NR loss but our NR Buffs will be increased) for Virgo's, or to suffer from a very likely lack of NCUs with the LoX one called "Nano NCU - Type 01" as it only adds 96 NCUs

    We have a lot more Dimach Skill thanks to our renewed FFoK so Infantry Symbiant Chest could be possibly taken off, plus if you count on having a high HPs PvP build you wouldn't sacrifice a lot of HPs at all, as both the Support & Infantry versions of Chest Symbs add the same amount of HPs (except that you'd still lose some BD Skill because of a Supp Chest Symb).
    But for the sole Sense/Psychic boost it provides? Especially when only Sense adds to BM thanks to trickledown (which roughly adds 2 BM Skill points from an Alpha Supp Chest, according to "Lottek Trickle Down Calculator" website).
    Not sure if it's really worth doing but then again I cannot figure it out by myself in-game, as my account's been frozen for the last 4 months!



    Yessir.
    Now we did talk a few times about MAs off & def stances. But let's speak the truth there, did they ever exist as two completely different or separate things?
    I fail to see a proper all-around PvP MA only using two different setups for sure!


    "Offensive setups" usually include:
    MA/Physic Init/Brawling/AS/SA/SO/Bow spc att. as Skills
    AAO, add dmg. & crit. chance figure as Modifiers

    The more MA Skill you have the slower you hit and AAO doesn't add to our fists dmg (template) unlike MA Skill. Though they both form what we call "Attack Rating".
    Critical Hits and Special Attacks don't work on every Profession either. P.I may be more useful sometimes, and AR totally useless.
    You'd indeed still be using an offensive setup even if you were to focus on twinking up your add damage (thus MA Skill) and crit chance while ending up having a not-so-high AR, like when you duel an Eng for example.

    That's quite a lot of setups to toy with already.


    "Defensive setups" are somewhat easier to achieve/practise. But not less difficult than offensive-focused ones when it comes to duelling imo.
    They usually result in having (all) Evade (including NR) Skills to their highest figures, and that would also involve Deflet Skill now.
    Depending on the Profession you encounter the most in BS or the one you're duelling with, you may need to tweak that NR accordingly and find Armor pieces that will either buff Close, Dodge or Duck Skill more than all-around defensive-oriented Armor pieces, even Weapons (Parry Sticks/Bang of Thunder for extra in-fight swapping defense for instance).
    You will also want to have AAD, ACs (to a certain extent), Reflect Dmg/Absorb Dmg/Dmg to Nano, Healing efficiency (modifier) as well as an appropriate amount of HPs and Nano, HD & ND, be it via Body Dev/NP Skills or Armor's mods (at least for HPs as it's becoming clear that high HPs builds could now constitute a solid PvP choice). Don't forget about anti-CC perk actions/resistance % in mass PvP too.

    Certainly a couple of setups for you to fight with and hope to master, eventually take to the next level.
    More importantly, we actually have to create a balanced setup out of the several offensive/defensive setups we could run with, depending on our preferences.
    Especially considering you have at least 14((opposing)) professions)*4(breeds) = 56 different scenarios. Using (at least for your own) two distinct ways: off/def, that's 112. With 4 breeds available on your own, that's 448 scenarios possible, at the very least. Not even including melee(fists & triple-wielding)/ranged/Zazen & non-Zazen/duel/open-mass PvP/low or high HPs situations there.
    Not even counting the fact that everything doubles up because your own opponent can use different setups as well, even under the same Profession/Breed as another player.
    They may vary from a single different item usage to a lot more differences in practise but they're still different ways to play a MA, according to your own Breed, PvP area, melee/ranged, AR/Def, Fists/Weapons preferences, past that, you have your opponent's playstyle with as many particularities to handle. That's why I've always considered duels to be the most efficient way to deal with your MA knowledge in depth.
    So much change, replacement required.

    Now there are always a few marginal players using setups most people would never like to try, even amongst other Professions. Thanks to God, that's AO for ya.
    Defensive setups w/o Zazen against a few Enfs/Solds/Keepers (...) could end up being a major failure for you as a MA.
    I sure met a lot of PvPers/duellers and only ~5-10% of them (all) would use the kind of setup that makes you really change (by that, I mean to impact at least 25-40% of your usual playstyle) the way you'd normally face an opponent of this Profession.
    In no way a majority, though you cannot help but to acknowledge those guys too.



    It's surely not that simple to depict, discuss and categorize MA's offensive and defensive alternatives when it comes to PvP.
    Last edited by Soliartist; Jun 13th, 2015 at 09:12:15.
    Angevil, proud 220 MA from Rimor.
    Flourishing anew. About twelve GUI/Perk/Armor setups done so far, hopefully that one will outlast the criticism of my perfectionism!

    Ars Magna. Histories became artifacts, images of poor effect, memories filled with acts and neglect
    As a vulture of cultures I indeed feed my seeds with much greed, soaked in pleasure I succeed

  20. #40
    I did just fine with a X1-R4 + Tonfa on testlive - like, I'm talking I won about 150 duels and lost maybe 10 - and that was with syndicate brain in so I didn't have an ideal IP distribution and couldn't even use top heals.

    To be honest, I'm completely boggled why MA's on live still haven't picked up on the fact that MA's will perform way better without swaps.

    The best setup right now is tonfa+X1R4 bar none for 1 vs 1 PVP. For mass PVP you can do Tonfa+X1R4 or ranged.

    For real mass PVP/healer role/tower wars, I'd go all out ranged since you capitalise on all the natural debuffs of zazen which align exactly with the mechanistic 100% crit resistance on towers.

    That said, MA's still have by far and away the fastest by miles and miles the hardest hitting instantaneous alpha using tonfa+X1R4,and again, I am totally bewildered as to why people aren't using it.

    like, the X1 R4 was gift from the gods when paired with tonfa, but if you try to swap it, the whole MA efficiency is just shot to hell.

    I beat advy/sold/doctor/keeper/NT/trader/enforcer can't remember others off hand, but I got my ass handed to me like 8 duels in a row by agent (gg srompu).

    Basically I found that you can play very offensively, but in an ad hoc manner: just keep defensive cycles going, and as soon as FOL lands, drop ES/delirium red dusk/incap/brawler perks/ and spam all damage flurry/fist winter flame/controlled dmg (SA/fast attack/brawl/tears/crave/feast/sai fung (or dimach)/UWOS/other perks if not dead.

    honestly, I stopped playing MA on test because it was easymode. Everyone on test agreed the changes were significant and the only reason we thought it was balanced was because MA was still limited to melee range in real PVP and with that melee setup you couldn't do well in mass PVP, 1 vs 1 PVP, and zazen PVP.

    It was goddamn strong in 1vs 1 PVP though, holy hell.

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