The road ahead: Post 18.7 Changes and Vinkera's thoughts on how to fix NT's.

[DigitalBath]

The problem I see is, I have a level 60... (as you can tell from my signature ;p)

And, the best nuke she can use self buffed, annoyingly, is Blaze of Hephaestos due to both cost and damage. There's nothing at low levels that can really match AoE's, which truly is sad.

Edit: However, a similar story is true until 215, when NT's can get GIVA.

Until then, NT's can't really be considered a damage profession. If we determine Doubles and such are too strong in PVP, I'd prefer to see those toned down before weakening some form of viable, single-target, PVM option. Currently, there really isn't anything, unfortunately. Even super twinked, my 60 is pretty much limited to using AOE's for almost everything.

I also have a 176 (or so) NM NT. I can't really describe her in any sort of positive way, damage wise. There just isn't anything she can do to do more damage, other than possibly swap to pistols.

I know that. I do have a few more NT's than I show on my sig, froob and paid
It always bothered me that at some ranges the best nuke for single target was the AoE nuke.. (and I'm not the hugest fan of "ost/kiting" leveling, either)

The GIVA-type solution is nice, but we still could use a more solid "base nuke" selection for lower levels. Your idea of revamping our most iconic nukes seems like a great way to go about it and I hope it gets through to Michi. Making NT's playable and fun across level ranges becomes even more important with the announcement of new level 90-150 content, a range that few people actually PLAY nowadays..

I'll be very happy to make a lower level NT on Testlive if this idea makes it on there, too, so count me in for testing

EDIT:

About your edit: I have said, for the longest time, that NT's are, in practical usability, kite kite kite until 160-170.. nearly useless until IU/SI/DM (Now just until IU/GIVA), and then they're fine if you go for a proper setup. (We changed to garbage after the DM nerf and until 18.7 )

I'm all for this change, just want to be cautious around the pvp crowd with empowering low level NT's.

[Vinkera]

I'm all for this change, just want to be cautious around the pvp crowd with empowering low level NT's.

There are a few things PVP'ers need to keep in mind:

1... WE asked for the black screen effect to be removed. We determined that was a fair compromise, simply because it's annoying.

2... We've lost triples and doubles have been toned down, so we can't nearly insta-kill anymore. I'm a big fan of that change, myself, but it can still be seen as a PVP nerf, regardless.

3... With these developments of the Cyberdeck being dual wield-able, I'm actually fighting for that to receive a massive nerf one way or another. I would like it to debuff weapon skills and weapon inits by 3K if there simply is no other fix for it. An NT using the Cyberdeck should be committed to using Nanos only, and not have the ability to AS someone. That's just not a direction I'm a fan of going with this at all, and I think most people here will agree. That being possible will just throw a wrench into us having proper balance through nuke options we COULD have.

So, that said... While I'm far from a PVP expert, I certainly have kept PVP'ers in mind. However, I'd be 100% willing to request adjustments to anything if we can legitimately determine NT's are too strong in PVP. I'm not going to suggest our PVM is nerfed simply for that reason, however. Michi has shown us that Nanos can, in fact, have a proper dual functionality in PVP or PVM with the way UBT works, so PVP balance adjustments to NT's that don't nerf PVM should be easiest to make of any profession.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

snip

I think that's a very prudent choice: maintain good toolset, cut out the unintended "cool" toys that could potentially throw balance out the window.

We got the same thing happening on MA forums with people asking for that very thing, even though it'll end up totally screwing up balance for MA's (top heals without CoNC is the push... which I don't agree with).

[DigitalBath]

There are a few things PVP'ers need to keep in mind:

1... WE asked for the black screen effect to be removed. We determined that was a fair compromise, simply because it's annoying.

2... We've lost triples and doubles have been toned down, so we can't nearly insta-kill anymore. I'm a big fan of that change, myself, but it can still be seen as a PVP nerf, regardless.

3... With these developments of the Cyberdeck being dual wield-able, I'm actually fighting for that to receive a massive nerf one way or another. I would like it to debuff weapon skills and weapon inits by 3K if there simply is no other fix for it. An NT using the Cyberdeck should be committed to using Nanos only, and not have the ability to AS someone. That's just not a direction I'm a fan of going with this at all, and I think most people here will agree. That being possible will just throw a wrench into us having proper balance through nuke options we COULD have.

So, that said... While I'm far from a PVP expert, I certainly have kept PVP'ers in mind. However, I'd be 100% willing to request adjustments to anything if we can legitimately determine NT's are too strong in PVP. I'm not going to suggest our PVM is nerfed simply for that reason, however. Michi has shown us that Nanos can, in fact, have a proper dual functionality in PVP or PVM with the way UBT works, so PVP balance adjustments to NT's that don't nerf PVM should be easiest to make of any profession.

I fully agree with you (hardly surprising at this point), but you're using logic. PvP whiners don't, which was sort of my point.
Proper PvP'ers wouldn't whine about this kind of stuff, they'd just get excited there's more profs and people able to PvP with them.

P.S. - I miss my blind effect and I never agreed to it. It wasn't removed from some of the perks which makes it even more unfair. I get blinded on my NT while in BS (I can perform fine anyway), but I can't blind others. Michi needs to see this through one way or the other. If we lose what I saw as a class and game defining feature.. everyone else has to as well.

[Vinkera]

I fully agree with you (hardly surprising at this point), but you're using logic. PvP whiners don't, which was sort of my point.
Proper PvP'ers wouldn't whine about this kind of stuff, they'd just get excited there's more profs and people able to PvP with them.

As I also suspect may be the case, at some point.

I mostly wanted something in writing I can quote to throw back at them.

[nanoforcer]

Allow me to interject with a video of pure rediculousness.

This was supposed to be a serious, awesome display of how we're looking now on live, but... this is what it turned into. Enjoy:

https://youtu.be/IQPTiMUUxkA

You forgot to Q!

[Vinkera]

This talk about the GIVA style nukes made me think...

I wanted to bring up the Syndicate Brain Symbiant, but it appears Michi already beat me to it, and boosted ours exactly as I would have asked...

However, I don't think it would be too bad if we also were able to use MC Infuse. It would be a minor change, but logically fills the gap until Izgimmer's Blessing.

When I came up with the requirements I've suggested, I'm assuming decent gear to be able to use the first damage range on the first nuke. (QL 125 implants, a few additional basic MC adding items) However, it purposely gets harder to use the higher tiers, and even the nuke itself without proper equipment. It would make sense that if we are to get these, or at least something along these lines, that all MC buffs are sorted out first.

[Cdogg421]

okay, so is the ability to dual wield with the cyber deck intentional? personally i like where our damage is now and my NT isn't even fully end game yet, and i don't think a pistol is needed. if the devs are pushing for something to be multi wielded with the deck then i'd rather see something like a shield or focus that gives us some extra defense or nano damage. but i think vinkera is right, should be just the deck.

[Vinkera]

okay, so is the ability to dual wield with the cyber deck intentional? personally i like where our damage is now and my NT isn't even fully end game yet, and i don't think a pistol is needed. if the devs are pushing for something to be multi wielded with the deck then i'd rather see something like a shield or focus that gives us some extra defense or nano damage. but i think vinkera is right, should be just the deck.

I asked Michi, and per him, it wasn't intentional.

He didn't seem opposed to the idea as strongly as I am, but hopefully it will be fixed, or nerfed to the point of being unusable, by means I mentioned above. *fingers crossed*

[dritst]

2... We've lost triples and doubles have been toned down, so we can't nearly insta-kill anymore. I'm a big fan of that change, myself, but it can still be seen as a PVP nerf, regardless.

LOL pass me what you smoke please. CB, tactical nuke+garuk+double= insta kill. But it is fun <3

[DigitalBath]

LOL pass me what you smoke please. CB, tactical nuke+garuk+double= insta kill. But it is fun <3

So.. your idea of instakill isn't AS+Burst+Fling+FA+1 big perk (literally instant when timed properly).. but..

CB (1.82s recharge) + GIVA (1s recharge) + Double (1s cast + 4s recharge) ? That takes AT LEAST 4 seconds to execute (more than enough for defensive measures to be put in place). Even if we add a good perk timing + a perfectly timed cyberdeck hit.. it's hardly worthy of "instakill".

Makes.. sense..? Nah.

[dritst]

So.. your idea of instakill isn't AS+Burst+Fling+FA+1 big perk (literally instant when timed properly).. but..

CB (1.82s recharge) + GIVA (1s recharge) + Double (1s cast + 4s recharge) ? That takes AT LEAST 4 seconds to execute. Even if we add a good perk timing + a perfectly timed cyberdeck hit.. it's hardly worthy of "instakill".

Makes.. sense..? Nah.

Just something you might avoid in your reflection i got an nt. CB isnt needed all the time but perk wise it can help and i can admit it can differ of the "insta gank" (even if at least on agent you need cast the crit buff).
Tactical nuke+giva hit taget same time + double 1 sec later. Yea it is instakill and yea i love it
Araushne.

[Vinkera]

That's a few more buttons and a few more seconds than the shortest duel I've ever had. ;p

(2 buttons and 3 seconds... Seriously.)

[JustinSane4]

Not an NT. But I've got to say, cyberdecks allowing dual-wield seems cool to me. All kinds of fun set-ups possible. One hander for AS (won't be a great AS with low modifiers and low crit chance, but hey, still something), or Lust, or Big Burger, or even Special Edition pistol. It seems like it opens up a lot more scope for creativity in equipment and IP decisions.

Why isn't this a good thing (honest question)?

[Vinkera]

Well, one issue I have with it, is it's a step backwards, honestly. It also throws a wrench into our balance, which should be achieved through Nanos, not weapons.

[Vinkera]

Continuing along with a minor annoyance...

There is no SL nuke available for level 175. Here's something I whipped up quick that could fill that gap nicely:

Enfraam's Electroshock - Combat - 44 NCU

Strikes the target with a ray of energy, inflicting 2567-4899 points of damage. Additional damage will be dealt if Cellular Re-Structure, Poisoned Thorns, Frost Blades, Magma Covering, or Self Illumination are running on the target.

Stats:
NanoPoints 744
Duration 0s
Range 35m
Stacking 44

Speed:
Attack 2.00s (2.00s)
Recharge 1.00s

Attack:
Matter Crea 100%

Defense
Nano Resist 66%

Criteria to Use:
User Profession == Nano-Technician and
User Level >= 175 and
User Matter creation >= 1072 and
User Expansion sets & Shadowlands and
User Specialization & Third and
User Cyberdeck & Jobe-chipped

Perform on Use:
Target Damage for 2360 - 4635, mitigated by Energy AC.

Target Damage for 40, mitigated by Energy AC.
If Self Running Cellular Re-Structure

Target Damage for 65, mitigated by Disease AC.
If Self Running Poisoned Thorns

Target Damage for 87, mitigated by Cold AC.
If Self Running Frost Blades

Target Damage for 135, mitigated by Fire AC.
If Self Running Magma Covering

Target Damage for 180, mitigated by Radiation AC.
If Self Running Self Illumination

[Vinkera]

I've been going over the low level SL nukes, and also trying to come up with some adjustments to fill the gapping holes in level range, but it dawned on me...

Why should our basic SL nukes have Specialization requirements at all? We are the only profession in the game who's ability to do damage is limited by Specializations, and I believe those should be removed. The higher level paid-only GIVA style nukes I outlined SHOULD have Specialization requirements, but I see no reason basic nukes should.

[DigitalBath]

I've been going over the low level SL nukes, and also trying to come up with some adjustments to fill the gapping holes in level range, but it dawned on me...

Why should our basic SL nukes have Specialization requirements at all? We are the only profession in the game who's ability to do damage is limited by Specializations, and I believe those should be removed. The higher level paid-only GIVA style nukes I outlined SHOULD have Specialization requirements, but I see no reason basic nukes should.

Good call. If there's no spec limits on other prof's weapons, there should be no spec limits on our nanos (our weapons pretty much *are* our nanos.. blabla.. obvious enough). I get having it on our decks because it's really a unique thing.

Also, on the level 175 nuke idea.. it all seems a bit low to me, somehow? Damage-wise I have a hard time telling things without testing.. but I have about that MC on my 120 not-really-twinked NT project that I half abandoned a while back Maybe make something more pushy on requirements as well as damage? (being inclusive to troxes is okay but I'm sure the players who pick troxes know they'll work harder for MC anyway).

Just my 2 morning cents.

[Vinkera]

I meant to include the cyberdecks, too. I see having Specialization requirements on our basic nukes and cyberdecks is a bit of a nuisance. I guess it's not that big of a deal.

I calculated the values for the 175 nuke from taking the difference between the 165 and 185 nukes, dividing by 2, then adding to the 165 nuke. Just a quick and dirty value that fits between the two. I still would like SL nukes to have a little bit of upscaling damage if the user's MC exceeds the casting value by a sizable amount. 15 or so percent sounds reasonable. Edit: But, I wanted to hold off on that until I also suggest Nuke OE values for SL nukes. :P

However, I think having SL nukes available to players starting as low as level 5 makes sense. To someone who's just starting AO, and goes paid, they can immediately see the difference from froob with a stronger nuke and the worn cyberdeck. There's currently no logical path for single-target nukes as a paid player at lower level. We would generally suggest "Just use AOE's", because everything else is inferior to them. Low level SL nukes be on par with them, damage and nano cost-wise. I had in mind, reducing several of the nukes values and level locks, since there are several available for the same levels, but spaced super far apart, requirement wise. Having nukes available for, let's say 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 35, 45, 55, 65, 75, 85, 95, 105, and 115 make sense, since most of those currently have none. Basically, paid players should see the benefit of actually being paid from level 1-220, not somewhere down the road when RK nukes don't make sense and SL nukes start to look more usable. RK nukes will still have their place (those are on my list to redesign a bit if we can, by the way), even for paid, but a paid's go-to should always be an SL nuke.

I checked the worn cyberdeck's stats on AOItems, and it does set a "Nano Focus Level" flag on the user. So, it would be immediately usable and obvious to someone just starting to realize "Oh, ok... I need to use this weird, wolverine glove thing to cast these kinds of nukes.... ok"

I'd also suggest once I jot down a few changes I have in mind, that SL nukes would then be available from the Jobe Professions hall for more reasonable prices, and not garden key locked from a vendor that's not even plausible to go and see yourself. That just makes no sense to me.

[DigitalBath]

@Vinkera: A lot of what you're up against seems to come from the weird twisted things NT's have been and become over the years. I agree with you so far and like the idea of a clear path for a newly made NT to follow. Branching off into alternative paths (e.g. the weird pistol+candycane builds that were around) should be possible and encouraged for more veteran NT's to enjoy too, but with a much lesser priority.

Obtaining nukes more easily would be nice too, though some of the more prevalent SL weapons are also somewhat hard to acquire outside of the GMI and Org hand-me-downs so I'm not sure how much support that'll get.
E.g. - "Why should NT's get their shiny new nuke on the Jobe shop while I have to farm and craft my Perennium Sniper/Blaster/Beamer?"
Just playing devil's advocate here.