Advancing Death Penalty

[WarKite]

Introduction

For a long time I've thought that the death penalty is kind of lame as it's not really a huge deal to lose all your XP/SK as you can just go get reclaim and do a daily or an inf mish and DING DING two levels instead of a single one.

So what is being proposed here is a change into the death penalty system. With this early concept of a hopefully better and somewhat more penalizing death penalty system I have tried also to take into consideration the fact that the system should not punish new players too much as new players usually end up dying more often than seasoned ones due to a lack of knowledge and skill. It would also be preferable if new players stayed and played more due to the lack of population.

How it works

The new system would have an advancing death penalty where when the player dies a set amount of times in a row during a set period of time they get an XP gain debuff that lasts for a while. The debuff would also double should the player die again for the set amount of times.
The set amount of deaths could for instance be 2+2 where the player has to die twice to get the first stage of the debuff and twice again for the doubled, second stage. Or the amount deaths could vary depending on the player's title level.
The set amount of time for the death window (the time where if you die again you get the irst stage or the second stage) could for instance be from 30 minutes to an hour. The time for the debuff itself could be from an hour to two as it being too long would not be too nice. These two times could again vary depending on the player's title level.
Also PVP MUST NOT trigger this since this penalty system has nothing to do with PVP.

Here is an example of it in action:

Player Leetkiller69 dings 100
Player Leetkiller69 heads to Crypt of Home since he's above the levels of most of the mobs there.
Player Leetkiller69 kills a bunch of things but ultimately gets overwhelmed by the kizzermoles.
Player Leetkiller69 gets a red "debuff" into his NCU warning him that if he dies again in a short time he will be penalized more than just losing all his previously accumulated XP for the level.
Player Leetkiller69 reads this and in spite of that tries to take on the dungeon again.
Player Leetkiller69 doesn't fare much better against the kizzermoles this time either.
Player Leetkiller69 receives a 10% XP debuff that lasts for a while due to dying twice in a row in a short period of time and also receives another warning that should he die twice again the debuff would double.
Player Leetkiller69 decides that a 10% XP debuff is enough for him and decides to go make his char better via leveling or imps before trying again.

One crucial thing here is that the XP gain debuff does not prevent the player from doing anything. The player can still level as normal though at a slower pace and if the player happaned to be 220, it wouldn't prevent raiding either.
The system also works on any player that isn't 220/30/70 as it would also slow down the accumulation of AXP and research.


This system in an early concept of how the death penalty could be improved in AO and in no way final as it should really be a community accomplishment as changing something so rooted in as the death penalty system needs the veteran community to be in agreement over this since we especially do not want any veterans leaving as one veteran could equal to 2-5 paid accounts or more. Constructive feedback is appreciated.



Here is how it could work depending on the player's title level.

Levels 1-99 (Title levels 1-3)
There shouldn't be any changes made here due to the reasons stated in the introduction.


Levels 100-149 (Title level 4)
Here is where the new system should start at. At this point new players should be familiar with the systems of AO, know the consequences of dying well and also be prepared to die.
The debuff would start at 10% and double to 20% should the player die again for the set amount of times.


Levels 150-189 (Title level 5)
Here the debuff would be the same as Title level 4 except with 20% and 40% XP debuffs


Levels 190-204 (Title level 6)
Same here again but with 25% and 50% debuffs.


Levels 205-220 (Title level 7)
This time with 30% and 60% XP debuffs.

[Difs]

Also PVP MUST NOT trigger this since this penalty system has nothing to do with PVP.

Actually I think the penalty system was not removed by now BECAUSE of the pvp.

[Cdogg421]

not a fan of adding any more penalty to death. losing xp, having to res, re-buff, run back, and hold up a team in doing so is more then enough to me.

[nanoforcer]

Why would be my question. (And i'm asking topic starter)

[Jihnna]

Yeah.. WHY!? I mean; there was once nothing called an XP-pool... it was added because people were complaining of losing xp... and now you wanna make an even worse system than we once had.... ok.... enjoy the rest of your drugs while they last.

[Scottik]

Good suggestion or not, there are definitely more pressing issues that need to be fixed first. So debump.

[gresh]

There isnt a specific level that qualifies you a status change from new to old. People can be 100 in no time with no effort, thought or learning required at all.

Gone are the days where people fight their way out so as not to train stampedes of mobs over people. Dashing for the exit seems to be the current trend and depending on who's doing the dashing, it seems the bigger the train the better lol.

Death is the very nature of AO.

[WarKite]

Why would be my question. (And i'm asking topic starter)

As stated in the introduction, the current penalty is not really a penalty.

[lufa1982]

No.

[WarKite]

There isnt a specific level that qualifies you a status change from new to old. People can be 100 in no time with no effort, thought or learning required at all.

Gone are the days where people fight their way out so as not to train stampedes of mobs over people. Dashing for the exit seems to be the current trend and depending on who's doing the dashing, it seems the bigger the train the better lol.

Death is the very nature of AO.

It's true that it's not really hard to level to 100 without learning much but more penalizing deaths could also lead to people actually investing in their character instead of just aimlessly pushing forward with leveling, especially if they are solo players who don't have ten accounts they can log to OST. But then again it could also lead to people getting more demoralized from dying and to there only being OST teams. But how I see it is that the current system is a joke with the 280-500% reclaim perk but I'm not proposing those perks be removed as even without them the XP is claimed back very quickly. Perhaps it should give you a reclaim XP debuff instead of a general XP gain debuff?

[DigitalBath]

From someone who was around and had fun when dying meant you simply LOST your unsaved XP (no pool)... This is a bad idea.

The removal of penalties to death is good and that's the direction the game is headed (with the 18.7 Keeper rezz sickness removal bit).

Adding penalties to death can result in more pvm griefing (kill your team a couple times / train some nubs enough and they'll get less xp!), less teaming and more elitism when picking teams (dying becomes a much greater issue so relying on others becomes a bigger liability). Not even gonna start with the trolling potential

It's just not a good idea. There's plenty better ways to improve the game's challenge.

[Raelil]

Not a good idea and even if it were. There are alot of other more important things for the devs to work on, than a change that would piss people of just for the heck of it.

[Ophiuchus]

The current penalty is very much a penalty because of the sheer time wasted getting back to where you were, waiting to rez up and then rebuffing with all the associated costs of regaining your hp and np. Penalties don't have to be literal subtractions of your stats or loss of your gear, they can apply in different ways and AO applies the penalty of severe delay and inconvenience. It's not like this game has ressurection from death to get you back into the fight a few moments after you fall over.

This proposed change is so completely unecessary. It's adding a big FU for no reason at all becasue it adds nothing whatsoever to the experience - no challenge, nothing to gain. It's not going to attract any new players at all, only put some of them off, not to mention putting off some existing players. Going backwards in game design is not going to move this game or its population forwards.

[sannz]

Also PVP MUST NOT trigger this since this penalty system has nothing to do with PVP.

And that is what would make it far too complex to implement.

Also: not a fan of the idea in general.

[WarKite]

Clearly people are in agreement to disagree but something like this is what I originally wanted to see happening. To see if the community wanted a change in death penalties or not.

[Litestrider]

I figured I'd throw my 2 cents in here since it's an opinion-gathering effort.

I really like not having death penalties. It encourages more aggressive play, more experimentation, more nonstandard teams and builds, and generally more fun and less annoyance. As others mentioned the travel time, the resurrection sickness, the xp pool and having to rebuff is more than enough of a penalty for the vast majority of cases. The equivalent of a penalty can be achieved quite well through good content design, for example some of the raids have respawning or hard-to-clear adds which make it very difficult for a dead character to get back to the team. Other instances don't punish single characters, but do punish full wipes by having the instance reset. I particularly like this, while there's some potential for abuse, there's also potential for some serious clutch plays as the last person or two desperately clings to life as the rest of the team tries to make it back in time.

I actually really like the xp pool system too, it gives you a penalty, but not a permanent disadvantage to your character. My friends and I even joke that we get a "double xp bonus" from dying a lot. It also serves as a really nifty way to play a character as a twink and still make progress toward higher levels, which can be a very fun way to level.

[gresh]

It's true that it's not really hard to level to 100 without learning much but more penalizing deaths could also lead to people actually investing in their character instead of just aimlessly pushing forward with leveling, especially if they are solo players who don't have ten accounts they can log to OST. But then again it could also lead to people getting more demoralized from dying and to there only being OST teams. But how I see it is that the current system is a joke with the 280-500% reclaim perk but I'm not proposing those perks be removed as even without them the XP is claimed back very quickly. Perhaps it should give you a reclaim XP debuff instead of a general XP gain debuff?

Yeah I think it is just un-needed punishment, not all deaths in AO are the players fault. and sometimes a single raid wipre can be the fault of a single player so it would just be punishing everybody for the mistake of the single player responsible.

I like how youve thought it out, seems like you put alotta thought into it. We cant help what niggles or annoys us to a great extent and you have every right to post a suggestion that you feel would solve what you deem to be a problem so I dont want make out its non issue or what ever but personally I dont think this is something id want. Think lightstrider hit the nail pretty much for me.

[Anonimofied]

Very good and clean presentation of the idea and i agree that the current death penalty is lame, not because of double dings but because we have to waste our time by waiting on ress sickness.
However, every replies in this thread have pointed out good points and im affraid the fun aspect of your suggestions doesnt weight up to the frustrations includes the work and resources required to materialize this idea.

I have said it before and i will say it again, let the professionals decide and design how ao should be played, it is their job and let us gamers do our job and play and not getting involved so much.
Lets think it this way, fc once made ao and players enjoyed it, then fc lost their mojo and started to listen to suggestions from the community, meaning the amatuers without the right experiences or expertise required to design sustainable fun gameplay.
Suggestions should be made if something is broken, or not working as intended to comply with the term dont fix it if it aint broken.