[Testserver] Feedback on patch 18.7.0.20(21) changes

[jooo]

Channel Rage perkline definitely needs something more. It is kinda essential to perk for its stats, but the actions are literally pathetic. 300dmg for 30s once every 3mins? The perk rarely gets used and after all it is kinda useless. 10 perks invested and the sole perk action is weak. They really need to change that damage to be up all the time on pet, bettering the pet like Soothing Spirits better heal pet by every perk.

That perkline could also have some "delete all debuffs from pets and give immunity for 30s" -similar action from our blue HHAB (which we will lose). And yes, perhaps add the suggested Pet Mongo Rage -type perk at Channel Rage 10. Again, this would help MP. If we invest 10 perks we should get some useful perks too. I cant think many weaker 10 perks invested perks than MP's CR and SS, which still are kinda essential to survive even this badly like we survive currently.

[Le-Quack]

the perk should give 300 dmg+ 300 ar if anything. the stupid pet wont hit anything.
but i still kinda wait for dev's to just boost rhiwen without a buff when it comes to ar, they should just boost its natural attack rate by 300+ as a start.

[nanoforcer]

It needs over 9000 thousand aeersss!!!
No but seriously, what does the big chicken have and would that be enough? Or does the top dog have more?

[Le-Quack]

It needs over 9000 thousand aeersss!!!
No but seriously, what does the big chicken have and would that be enough? Or does the top dog have more?

ummm.. we have no dog.
anyways the dog has the biggest ar of all pets, i trade my rhiwen for the engi dog any day.

[nanoforcer]

Well you seem to understand that i was making a compaction to engi pets so there's the dog
I should express myself better, chicken = battle drone.

And yeah perhaps rhiwen should be boosted like that, to engi dog standard or thereabouts.

[JustinSane4]

ummm.. we have no dog.
anyways the dog has the biggest ar of all pets, i trade my rhiwen for the engi dog any day.

Dog's got 4,366 AR. Rihwen has 2,761. Both fully buffed.

[Le-Quack]

Dog's got 4,366 AR. Rihwen has 2,761. Both fully buffed.

yeah its just sad when engi has such a strong toolset that we are nowere close to em as a pet profession.
Rihwen should be at 3300+ ar wich is still 1000+ ar under the dog as a start and balance it more out from there if not balanced around that ar.
pet ar+some sort of evades that dont benefit shield, and mp should be rather decent.

also a side note. i dont get why they focus on shield as a mp.
you pay to play a game, how is it playing a game when you dont use your character but useing 1x command wich is /pet attack ?
why i say this is becose a wep equip mp you get to play without useing just one single command to play the character, so wtb some evade love for non shield users so the profession can be playd.

[JustinSane4]

also a side note. i dont get why they focus on shield as a mp.
you pay to play a game, how is it playing a game when you dont use your character but useing 1x command wich is /pet attack ?
why i say this is becose a wep equip mp you get to play without useing just one single command to play the character, so wtb some evade love for non shield users so the profession can be playd.

That's fairly close to trolling my friend. As a shield MP, I've got seven pet macros, four nano debuffs, 13 perk actions, several "on use" items and a nuke, all of which I use frequently in combat. I suspect you know most of this, too.

[jooo]

Dog's got 4,366 AR. Rihwen has 2,761. Both fully buffed.

That seems like a joke. But it actually is not a joke. Makes you think...what the hell are devs doing with this class? Engi has another attack pet on top of that and minimum 600 more AR than us, blockers, coon and similar evades. We have only ONE attack pet and its AR isnt even close being similar to Engis ANOTHER (yes another) attack pet. Makes you really wonder what they were smoking when they came up with this.

And people wonder why there is never (rarely) MP's in 220 battlestation.... With that AR your pet wont hit most of the classes, it can be literally ignored. And well you yourself as an MP wont hit most of the classes, or perk them. Dead profession in pvp? Well same can be said in regards to pvm. Getting ranty but it is sad realization.

[Le-Quack]

That's fairly close to trolling my friend. As a shield MP, I've got seven pet macros, four nano debuffs, 13 perk actions, several "on use" items and a nuke, all of which I use frequently in combat. I suspect you know most of this, too.

gues your right, maybe it was trolling there.

after beeing on test long now with a few mp's made etc.. i also tried 2x shield setup..
like i have 5000+ evades with 2x and 25% reflect on the pet thing and on top of it dmg to pet + heal pet. and on top of it 13% reflect graft with 25% from pet is 38% perma reflect.. + 5k+ evades..
if pet gets boosted i think shield has to be nerfed. i dont think we should greed such overpowerd option from funcom, this is realy wrong..

why i think reduceing aad on shield of remove the option to dual equip zset would be nice. keep the 1hb change but make it left or right hand only.
give us more aad/evades in buffs or something..

this feels realy wrong and please disagree with me, but 5000+ evades and 38% reflect + dmg to pet for 20 seconds and a heal pet.. i wont support this.

[Cratertina]

Two shields are really "Stronk". One shield + melee weapon is about ballpark of where MP should be, so give MP some flat defense bonuses avaliable in all setups, then single shield... somewhat nerfed version. Shield should have reflects, acs, and maybe even.. shields !

MP should provide AAD, evades.

So dual shield MP no go, tthere is also a glaring problem with no-shield MP.

(from shield) Add All Def. 910 Now this is the big one...

Give half of that to some evade perk on MP,
And halve it on shield...
With two shields then mp has 1455 aad extra... which is... about the same as a fixer, (hence must be balanced)

I wouldnt mind even more AAD be shifted to some perklines, and make shield something that gets you to "almost" invincible 4500 AAD+evades. And about 3800 for same setup without shields.

So then you can choose between 3800 with decent attacks, 4150 +shield and 4500 for all out defense.

It also has to be balanced in mind so that shield is not "the only way" of setting up for pvp. Especially viable should be Bow, creation-1hb, Pistol setups.

Just tweak stats during testing to resonalbe setup and finally switch them around after few months on live.

You like?

[Le-Quack]

i just want more aad/evades in a nano buff and to let us stick with 1x zset as 1hb and increase the pet ar. sounds like demands but i kinda dont see the problem.
also very obvious its sily with a dual equiped szet mp with 5k+ evades and a heal pet+38% reflects and 20 seconds with dmg to pet if someone would be able to hurt u a little.

i dont like this, it sounded cool in the begining becose mp has been trash for so long, but i dont want some redicules setup available, you dont have to use it, but thats not the issue. the issue is that the option excist and it doesnt fit into a game that should be more balanced.

[JustinSane4]

In what way is it imbalanced? When you say 5k defense and 38% reflect with a heal pet, that sounds awful, sure... but that's less PvP survivability than Fixers have and far less offensive power. That's less PvM survivability than Docs or Zazen MAs (who have about 8 times the healing) have, less damage per minute than docs have, and far less PvP or PvM team utility. There is no reason at all to nerf SoZ. It sounds impressive, my initial impression was that it was too powerful, but I've played on test too, most of the time in dual SoZ, and I don't see where it gives us an unfair advantage. The closest it comes to overpowered is solo PvM, and even there Docs can do anything we can do, faster, and several things we can't. In PvP, we have very good survivability but very, very poor ability to actually kill a non afk opponent. The damage just is not there. In mass PvP, we can't spam NSD any longer, and it matters a heck of a lot less when it does land due to having 1/6 the duration. Don't forget that 18.7 SoZ attacks at 8%/2% rather than 80%/20% - we won't be perking anyone at all.

Those who feel SoZ should be nerfed - why? Is it because you have played with it and found that it actually is too strong? Or because you think that if it is sacrificed we'd get buffs that help Bow MPs? And are your MPs currently SoZ or bow? Le'Quack, it's obvious you hate shield builds. But in what specific part of the game does make MPs too strong? It's really easy to add an evade buff without nerfing SoZ. Where B = "amount of the evade buff", (B-120)/2= how much AAD should be taken from SoZ to leave it exactly where it is now with the top outside evade buff running. There is no conflict between leaving dual SoZ as a legitimate defensive option and improving survivability for bow builds.

[Le-Quack]

In what way is it imbalanced? When you say 5k defense and 38% reflect with a heal pet, that sounds awful, sure... but that's less PvP survivability than Fixers have and far less offensive power. That's less PvM survivability than Docs or Zazen MAs (who have about 8 times the healing) have, less damage per minute than docs have, and far less PvP or PvM team utility. There is no reason at all to nerf SoZ. It sounds impressive, my initial impression was that it was too powerful, but I've played on test too, most of the time in dual SoZ, and I don't see where it gives us an unfair advantage. The closest it comes to overpowered is solo PvM, and even there Docs can do anything we can do, faster, and several things we can't. In PvP, we have very good survivability but very, very poor ability to actually kill a non afk opponent. The damage just is not there. In mass PvP, we can't spam NSD any longer, and it matters a heck of a lot less when it does land due to having 1/6 the duration. Don't forget that 18.7 SoZ attacks at 8%/2% rather than 80%/20% - we won't be perking anyone at all.

Those who feel SoZ should be nerfed - why? Is it because you have played with it and found that it actually is too strong? Or because you think that if it is sacrificed we'd get buffs that help Bow MPs? And are your MPs currently SoZ or bow? Le'Quack, it's obvious you hate shield builds. But in what specific part of the game does make MPs too strong? It's really easy to add an evade buff without nerfing SoZ. Where B = "amount of the evade buff", (B-120)/2= how much AAD should be taken from SoZ to leave it exactly where it is now with the top outside evade buff running. There is no conflict between leaving dual SoZ as a legitimate defensive option and improving survivability for bow builds.

dont know why you like to defend a 5k evade setup with 38% reflect and to top all this with dmg to pet wich gives em 20 sec immunity on top of evrything. then a heal + heal delta+stims+battlekits.
please log anything in test that could kill my dual shield equiped szet mp.
the dual equiped Szet is just redicules with the 25% link to pet and a 13% graft. now if they boost rhiwen i am totaly ageinst it, i dont want rhiwen boosted unless we nerf the shield of szet.
what kind of lame way is to to pvp with dual equiped szet anyways if pet get boost?
its basicly this easy then to pvp /pet attack /pet heal and press sit and enjoy your heal delta while pet kills.
i was gonna play dumb and not mention how overpowerd we realy are with 2x szet, but i cant, its just to redicules and this is not balance if we get it. i get realy sad and i wont play my mp if this ever happens. its a reason why the only alt i never played in ao since 2003 to 2015 is adv, its the simple reason of its redicules overpowerd, and i get sad if i have to unequip my mp but i do it on the day if 2x szet hits live with this much evades on top of the rest of our toolset.

and no i dont troll, this is just facts. please correct me if i am wrong that a dual equiped szet user dont have 5000+ evades and 38% reflect wich mignates dmg allot and a heal pet wich keeps you 100% hp since you will barly get hit. then if you are gonna get perked by some miracle you mignate 38% dmg with reflects so u wont die and you can press your dmg to pet.

i dont like overpowrd professions sorry.

[Burgly]

In what way is it imbalanced? When you say 5k defense and 38% reflect with a heal pet, that sounds awful, sure... but that's less PvP survivability than Fixers have and far less offensive power. That's less PvM survivability than Docs or Zazen MAs (who have about 8 times the healing) have, less damage per minute than docs have, and far less PvP or PvM team utility.

That's exactly the problem, we don't want another Zset accident where FC are too scared to boost MP's because we would be too OP with the current shields. Quacks suggestion about letting us only use 1 shield (make it left or right hand only asmodian) so we can still dual wield it with a 1hb wep or whatever else we choose that 1hand is reasonable in my oppinion. Or Cratertina's suggestion about maybe halfing stats and giving them in some other manner f.eks perks or buffs.

I just don't want us to get stuck in a rut again...

[JustinSane4]

With two shields then mp has 1455 aad extra... which is... about the same as a fixer, (hence must be balanced)

I wouldnt mind even more AAD be shifted to some perklines, and make shield something that gets you to "almost" invincible 4500 AAD+evades. And about 3800 for same setup without shields.

The math here isn't very close. Fixers have 2,294 AAD (taking the average value of limber, DoF and evasive stance, but not even including Escape, the 25% dodge ranged buff or trickle from agility/sense buffs) extra from perks and nanos compared to MPs (assuming the MP uses OFAB back... drop that to 2,280 if you want to say MPs should use Notucomm). Sacrificing all AR and all weapon damage to go dual SoZ... brings us to still 474 AAD behind Fixers. With their HoT procs up, they slightly outheal us. We've got DtP, true, but they've got a massive advantage in mobility - runspeed, root and snare removers, and meeps. Fixers have better defense and vastly better offense than dual SoZ MPs.

Now let's look at Advs. They've got 1,229 more AAD than us from perks and nanos in wolf morph. If we go dual SoZ, that puts us 591 AAD ahead of them. And, as mentioned, we've got 25% DtP + 13% reflect graft + heal pet. We win? Nope. They've got 3.1 times the healing we do (assuming the Invocation of the Phoenix CH heals for 10,000) - 52,189 healing per minute for wolf Adv, 16,733 healing per minute for MP (with soothing spirits 10 perked of course, and with the 15% healing efficiency buff we got in 18.7.0.20, and with the 12% healing efficiency bonus from construct empowerment). Advs also have 7% static reflect + 13% reflect graft. And root/snare resistance and removers. And much better runspeed. And Biococoon. And they don't have to sacrifice 100% of their weapon based damage and AR or weapon skill checking perks to get any of this. They have better PvP survivability and vastly better damage than dual SoZ MPs.

Dual SoZ MPs do not need a nerf. At best, they don't need as big of a buff as other MPs.

[JustinSane4]

dont know why you like to defend a 5k evade setup with 38% reflect and to top all this with dmg to pet wich gives em 20 sec immunity on top of evrything. then a heal + heal delta+stims+battlekits.
please log anything in test that could kill my dual shield equiped szet mp.
the dual equiped Szet is just redicules with the 25% link to pet and a 13% graft. now if they boost rhiwen i am totaly ageinst it, i dont want rhiwen boosted unless we nerf the shield of szet.
what kind of lame way is to to pvp with dual equiped szet anyways if pet get boost?
its basicly this easy then to pvp /pet attack /pet heal and press sit and enjoy your heal delta while pet kills.
i was gonna play dumb and not mention how overpowerd we realy are with 2x szet, but i cant, its just to redicules and this is not balance if we get it. i get realy sad and i wont play my mp if this ever happens. its a reason why the only alt i never played in ao since 2003 to 2015 is adv, its the simple reason of its redicules overpowerd, and i get sad if i have to unequip my mp but i do it on the day if 2x szet hits live with this much evades on top of the rest of our toolset.

and no i dont troll, this is just facts. please correct me if i am wrong that a dual equiped szet user dont have 5000+ evades and 38% reflect wich mignates dmg allot and a heal pet wich keeps you 100% hp since you will barly get hit. then if you are gonna get perked by some miracle you mignate 38% dmg with reflects so u wont die and you can press your dmg to pet.

i dont like overpowrd professions sorry.

Again, Dual SoZs have worse PvP defenses than Fixers or Advs, and even if we had two Rihwens rather than one would have worse PvP offense. Defense almost as strong as Adv or Fixer with much weaker offense (and it would still be much weaker even with a huge buff to attack pet power) is not overpowered.

For PvM, we can't tank, as we've got no taunting tools, so dual SoZ is a solo PvM only build with less damage and less survivability than Doctors. Again, no problems here.

[Le-Quack]

Again, Dual SoZs have worse PvP defenses than Fixers or Advs, and even if we had two Rihwens rather than one would have worse PvP offense. Defense almost as strong as Adv or Fixer with much weaker offense (and it would still be much weaker even with a huge buff to attack pet power) is not overpowered.

For PvM, we can't tank, as we've got no taunting tools, so dual SoZ is a solo PvM only build with less damage and less survivability than Doctors. Again, no problems here.

yes but why not find a solution to let us wield 1x shield of zset? add some reflects to it and make it left or right hand only and you can dual wield a 1hb wep at the same time wich gives you good offense.
also it looks rly dumb with 2x shields on a mp, like they seem to struggle to get the shield beeing wielded correctly.


so faar from what you told me i dont buy it that 2x szet is good for us, well its good.. its overpowerd when it comes to defence.. i rather see it balanced out with more dmg to pet etc then, i want to know i can be killed and that i have to follow the screen evry second to stay alive.
it be wrong to argue for more pet damage and attack rateing if you at the same time gonne run with 2x shields and be in godmode in where nobady and nothing can kill you.

[JustinSane4]

That's exactly the problem, we don't want another Zset accident where FC are too scared to boost MP's because we would be too OP with the current shields. Quacks suggestion about letting us only use 1 shield (make it left or right hand only asmodian) so we can still dual wield it with a 1hb wep or whatever else we choose that 1hand is reasonable in my oppinion. Or Cratertina's suggestion about maybe halfing stats and giving them in some other manner f.eks perks or buffs.

I just don't want us to get stuck in a rut again...

If we could get real heals - even half of the healing we were going to get in the nano-doc for instance (which would work out to 34,875 healing/minute, up from 16,733 on test live) I'd agree with this. But right now, dual SoZ is the only good defensive option we've got, and it still isn't as good defensively as doctors in PvM or Advs and Fixers or PvP - and is lower damage than any profession. And again, it's very easy to buff non-SoZ AAD without improving dual SoZ AAD. You just take half the amount of the buff out of SoZ's AAD.

Just as a thought experiment, if MPs got a 910 evade buff, and 910 AAD was taken from SoZ, as you and one other have suggested, dual SoZ builds would have the same defense as non SoZ builds. If half the amount of the buff in excess of 60 were taken from SoZ, SoZ would have 485 AAD, and dual SoZ builds would have a total of 1,880 AAD + evades from the shields and evade buff - the same that they have now. But non-SoZ builds would have 850 more evades. Which way is more balanced?

[Burgly]

Just as a thought experiment, if MPs got a 910 evade buff, and 910 AAD was taken from SoZ, as you and one other have suggested, dual SoZ builds would have the same defense as non SoZ builds. If half the amount of the buff in excess of 60 were taken from SoZ, SoZ would have 485 AAD, and dual SoZ builds would have a total of 1,880 AAD + evades from the shields and evade buff - the same that they have now. But non-SoZ builds would have 850 more evades. Which way is more balanced?

Tons of aad/flects is what zset build lets us do now and it's utterly crap, i don't see how a repeat of this would prove beneficial for us as a profession, slightly stronger single shield paired with 1 decent 1hb wep and boosted heal pet would put shield builds in a good place, while giving non shield users a buff/perkline that adds to our AAD. My 2 cents.