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Thread: Changes Log (current to 18.8.5)

  1. #81
    Is this root proc also unbreakable like the crat's stun procs? hehe, and how much does it last?

    Can anyone point me to the database parser program to see the new changes? I did years ago, but now i can't remember how. aoitems got stuck at 18.7.0.22

  2. #82
    I'm not sure about break, but one is 3s and one is 6s. I don't have a database parser program myself, but the changes I've found so far are at the tail end of the OP.

  3. #83
    srompu, can you comment on the antiroot?

    also, i logged my agent a couple of times last week and i think its ridiculous with the pistol stuff. not only that the troll pistol hurts like hell reliably in the hands of profs who have quite a set other than as (advy, crat, engi, docs) - which i said in the other thread as well, but what i feel most frustrated about is the ar. I sit around 3.2k def. that soldiers and enfs and shades and keepers and so on, in short profs that are based around weapons skills, can perk me - ok. but the 80% pistol check makes the only people that can't perk me some other agents (with non-ai, no-su, non-tranq, non-cs perks) and mps. if mps discover pistol setups evades on an agent will be useless. how do you feel about this? i really feel that neither going nr1 nor maxing evades really has a benefit any more. pistol users need only 2.6k ar to perk me thanks to 80% check and get a weapon that throws out as that are inferior to my as, yes, but get tons of other crap on top of that. while we have? and all other profs have higher ar rating that we do. my fixer sits at like 3.4k ar, 3.5k ar, soldiers i have no number but lol and enfs have weird perk checks and challenger procs, a drained shade goes through the roof anyway, a drained trader can kill you with a chair, etc etc. most ridiculous prof for the pistol perks imo is advy. my advy has 3.1k ar self, with engi buff..80% perks....thats just lol. I know we have bullseye, but truth is, in comparison to every other artillery prof and most melee profs, our ar is garbage. we should not have a buff that debuffs evades, we should have a couple hundred points higher ar to runaround with.

    especially with deflect (still coming?) agents as aimed shot throwing used-to-be-midgets isnt working any more. we need to hit people, and we should be able to do so better than the so called support profs.
    Last edited by Xootch; Apr 11th, 2015 at 16:02:14.

  4. #84
    Some stuff in your post is a bit off.

    if you have 3.2k defence, I assume nearly 1k AAD

    2200 evades*0.8+1000AAD= 2760 AR

    To get 2760 AR on crat/engi you need to be in an AR setup with predator and awakening.

    Further to that, it's not like getting "perked" by engi/crat spells the end of the world. They have 3 pistol perks which translates into about 8k damage/minute. Not exactly threatening.

    I'd be far more worried about crat debuffs and nukes or engi NSD+pets.

    Advy on the other hand, if you're going to talk about OSB's, you're shooting for the wrong end. My ranged advy in team with engi/crat/keep/trader gets 4400 AR (and that's before the 80% check). If you have complaints about that, I suggest getting into a defensive team buff situation to rectify your issue there (nothing will save you from perk damage, but you can avoid a lot of damage with reflects, blockers, and team healing/team HP boosts)

    Agents aren't as nerf as you think though - maybe defensive sets aren't that hot... but with ll the changes to perk execution times and checks being lowered, why not go for the offensive set?

    I mean, now you got repressor as well to break combat... it makes the most sense to go all out AR than it does to go all out defence.

  5. #85
    you can math all you want, i get perked by docs with 2.6k. either all 3 of them are lying or there's something wrong about the calc. don't know which one it is and it is irrelevant.

    i do not think its appropriate that these classes can perk through these defenses but agents struggle. and its not like "going offensive" will give you that much more, ask lupus about his approach on that. that is mainly because css gives you ar and evades, top choice for both in most spots. so juggling 100 ar won't make you a juggernaut all of a sudden. what will is if you do sa/dimach swaps. which i did for a while, i think its silly.

    and please, mate, i have played my main agent on and off for more than 10 years. i have probably dueled a couple thousand people over the years. i am not going to engage in paper pvp with you. this is not a complaint about agent capabilities (being "nerf"), or my ability to play my agents (since you went for that in very fixer debate we had), this is a complaint about how agent ar and special performs in comparison to profs that have very significant other tools at their disposal, while agents do not.

    edit: and if you do not think that pistol perks are significant when killing on docs or crats or engis, i assume you are ok to remove them or have them check 100%. also, my crat without ai armor and just some betas in has 2.6k. good crats i talked to tell me 3k is not that uncommon. so.
    Last edited by Xootch; Apr 12th, 2015 at 00:43:28.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Xootch View Post
    you can math all you want, i get perked by docs with 2.6k. either all 3 of them are lying or there's something wrong about the calc. don't know which one it is and it is irrelevant.

    i do not think its appropriate that these classes can perk through these defenses but agents struggle. and its not like "going offensive" will give you that much more, ask lupus about his approach on that. that is mainly because css gives you ar and evades, top choice for both in most spots. so juggling 100 ar won't make you a juggernaut all of a sudden. what will is if you do sa/dimach swaps. which i did for a while, i think its silly.

    and please, mate, i have played my main agent on and off for more than 10 years. i have probably dueled a couple thousand people over the years. i am not going to engage in paper pvp with you. this is not a complaint about agent capabilities (being "nerf"), or my ability to play my agents (since you went for that in very fixer debate we had), this is a complaint about how agent ar and special performs in comparison to profs that have very significant other tools at their disposal, while agents do not.

    edit: and if you do not think that pistol perks are significant when killing on docs or crats or engis, i assume you are ok to remove them or have them check 100%. also, my crat without ai armor and just some betas in has 2.6k. good crats i talked to tell me 3k is not that uncommon. so.
    Sorry, I thought you were talking about 18.7.

    I don't think there's much value in discussing agents in 18.6 because clearly we're moving to a new system.

    I'm all for pistol perks moving to 100% checks.

    But clearly there are many more perks going to 80%, including rifle perks. So, I don't want to be a hypocrite and say pistol perks should go to 100% and rifle perks should stay at 80%. So, again, the question is, do you want to be able to kill with ease or do you want to avoid the 3 pistol perks?

    Considering the number of perks agent has, I'd be far more inclined to eat the pistol perks and enjoy the relative ease that 80% rifle perks afford you.

    Edit: as for crats who have 3k AR, they are either in a setup that you don't need to be afraid of (i.e. no troa'ler), or they have high towers, in which case you should calculate your own defence with high towers as well. Generally crats in a setup that won't let them be facerolled means they need to use def huds and full CSS and a scope to keep troa'ler out of OE. That also means lower nano AR... crats are pretty finicky from IP limitations standpoint so you can't have "decent" AS, "decent" AR, "decent" evades and "decent" nano AR you can only kinda get 2/4 of those, and you can never, ever get "good" AS skill or "good" AR...

    So I'm not sure how or why you're even complaining about that.
    Last edited by McKnuckleSamwich; Apr 12th, 2015 at 00:58:04.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Xootch View Post
    srompu, can you comment on the antiroot?
    Sure.
    The deroot is what we had before, and it's bad. If we're want to be derooted, some dude is probably alphaing us and it won't matter. If we're debuffed and a trader/nt is chainrooting, it might be ok, and the 10% chance is a nice tweak.
    I'm interested in the 20% resist though. With a 15s uptime and 10% proc chance, chances are it'll be up if we're hitting someone. I think it could synergize very well with the Advy boon/freedom +28%. Incidentally, TP Advy seems decent now although Sold is probably most well-rounded.

    The 6s rootproc is in the same line, but the deroot proc would be more for ranged instead of melee. Each might have a use.
    Grim Reaper is really nice, but the rootresist might be situationally worthwhile. We'll have to see how it plays out, I think.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xootch View Post
    also, i logged my agent a couple of times last week and i think its ridiculous with the pistol stuff. not only that the troll pistol hurts like hell reliably in the hands of profs who have quite a set other than as (advy, crat, engi, docs) - which i said in the other thread as well, but what i feel most frustrated about is the ar. I sit around 3.2k def. that soldiers and enfs and shades and keepers and so on, in short profs that are based around weapons skills, can perk me - ok. but the 80% pistol check makes the only people that can't perk me some other agents (with non-ai, no-su, non-tranq, non-cs perks) and mps. if mps discover pistol setups evades on an agent will be useless. how do you feel about this? i really feel that neither going nr1 nor maxing evades really has a benefit any more. pistol users need only 2.6k ar to perk me thanks to 80% check and get a weapon that throws out as that are inferior to my as, yes, but get tons of other crap on top of that. while we have? and all other profs have higher ar rating that we do. my fixer sits at like 3.4k ar, 3.5k ar, soldiers i have no number but lol and enfs have weird perk checks and challenger procs, a drained shade goes through the roof anyway, a drained trader can kill you with a chair, etc etc. most ridiculous prof for the pistol perks imo is advy. my advy has 3.1k ar self, with engi buff..80% perks....thats just lol. I know we have bullseye, but truth is, in comparison to every other artillery prof and most melee profs, our ar is garbage. we should not have a buff that debuffs evades, we should have a couple hundred points higher ar to runaround with.

    especially with deflect (still coming?) agents as aimed shot throwing used-to-be-midgets isnt working any more. we need to hit people, and we should be able to do so better than the so called support profs.
    I agree with your sentiment. Following is just a bunch of me braindumping.

    I think the troll pistol needs the 1.6s nerf. Besides, mtfks act like they forgot about the silverback.
    I agree NR setups are probably not effective as before. Our nanoskills are getting really important. Also, the nanos we worry about aren't as devastating, thanks to the mimic tweak.


    Surprisingly, I think our AR is going to be ok. We have an invisible ~450-550 AR boost. If I use a trashy def/hp survival wwwwwwwwowwwwww setup on live, I get ~2930 AR, ~380 AAO.
    With the AAO perk checks, this translates to ~3300 perk AR. The 90% check raises your perk AR range another 150-250, depending on your target's AAD. This isn't far off Advs near 3600, which is where it should be imo. With bullseye, we start getting close to MAs, single-shield MPs, and crats near 3800-4000.
    Let me know if this isn't making sense or I'm missing points.


    I agree we can't evade perks, especially not pistol perks. Without checking my numbers too heavily, a generic def setup runs ~2000 dodge, ~900 aad with precognition.
    You can dodge Docs if you try or they don't. They can hit ~2600 AR self, but it's a goofy setup. If you want to beat that though, you'd need to swap hloa, motfk, maybe more.
    My buddy's neut NM crat with a scope is at 3k right now, no towers, with css.
    Currently, I'm evaluating setups against what they can evade while using our evac nano. We're that far out.


    One significant tweak is we can now keep the Adv aura/morph through TP. I think this is a critical step to keeping evade setups viable. The morph and aura combined give 121 evades, 120 AAD, capped runspeed, and high perception. In an dedicated def setup, we can hit ~3100. Change armor pieces to specialize.
    If it were somehow possible to PvP in FP Adv, we'd have access to the 200 AAD temp buff. Not viable currently because too little healing, but perhaps if the Adv CH were 30s.


    Overall, I agree Agents need some dodge/AAD love, despite the evac nanos. Maybe ~100 AAD on Ruse 4 would do it, or tweaks to FP advy or something. The aura's a nice start. Moving pistol perks to at least 90%, if not 100%, should be absolutely done.
    Also, I think a little more IP would be good. Perhaps we could get green weapon skills, which would free up IP to max nanoskills and still have NR1 as a specialized option.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by srompu View Post


    Besides, mtfks act like they forgot about the silverback.
    who forgot about silverback? You think crats will use it? With 0 support for shotgun, somehow you think it's going to magically save crats from wtf nerfdom? What are you smoking bro?

    Quote Originally Posted by srompu View Post
    My buddy's neut NM crat with a scope is at 3k right now, no towers, with css.
    Bull sh*t.

    Any crat with no towers and 3k AR is going to be perkbait. You can pretend that "crats have 3k AR" but no crat in the history of AO will every play with 3k AR. Crats need nearly all slots swapped to defence in order to stay alive. going to 3k AR means losing out on a lot of defence so either your buddy doesn't know how to play crat, or he's PVM only. Both of which only show you're talking out your ass.

    Crat with full CSS, pred+awakening, scope and no OSB's is sitting at 2850-2880ish AR.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by srompu View Post
    One significant tweak is we can now keep the Adv aura/morph through TP. I think this is a critical step to keeping evade setups viable. The morph and aura combined give 121 evades, 120 AAD, capped runspeed, and high perception. In an dedicated def setup, we can hit ~3100. Change armor pieces to specialize.
    If it were somehow possible to PvP in FP Adv, we'd have access to the 200 AAD temp buff. Not viable currently because too little healing, but perhaps if the Adv CH were 30s.
    What's the viability of an agent in FP adv running as a pit lizard? They left the top one open for you - the morph plus the aura (Fpable?) is +13100 HP. That's a lot of HP to eat through. They left the lowest instant heal open, and you have the CH, one per minute but it now has low cast and recharge time. And they unlocked some of the SL heals. Maybe you could lobby Michi to unlock BoL as well. That gives you a morph with massive HP, decent healing, ~30% root/snare resist. Together with the disappear nanos turning into essentially a shorter duration evasive stance, it seems pretty good.


    Overall, I agree Agents need some dodge/AAD love, despite the evac nanos. Maybe ~100 AAD on Ruse 4 would do it, or tweaks to FP advy or something. The aura's a nice start. Moving pistol perks to at least 90%, if not 100%, should be absolutely done.
    Careful there buddy or you throw support professions back into the dark ages. You guys can't say that crat/engy/doc don't deserve an AS weapon and then also say they don't deserve landable perks. Agent isn't a proper evade profession, even if you choose to run in evade gear. A doc has ~2600 AR, an engy ~2800 AR, and a crat ~3000. If you change pistol perks to 100% you prevent them from perking just about anyone outside of the doctor/engineer/soldier evadeless wonder trifecta.

    Also, I think a little more IP would be good. Perhaps we could get green weapon skills, which would free up IP to max nanoskills and still have NR1 as a specialized option.
    I think NR should be changed to give maybe 1000-2000 NR for the whole line, and have the nanoskills debuff changed to reflect that. It's such a specialized and little used perkline as it sits. Maybe each perk gives 200 NR and debuffs nanoskills by 2% or something like that.
    New Engine - Announced: June 2007 ETA: Soon™ I'm speechless (June 2015)
    Rebalancing - Announced: January 2009 ETA: December 21, 2012 Started! (April 2015)
    New TL7 Pets - Announced: March 2009 ETA: Uh...
    AS Changes - Announced: July 2009 ETA: TBA
    Parry/Riposte - Announced: October 2009 ETA: ??? Did it! (April 2015)
    Perk Changes - Announced: October 2009 ETA: Right after server merge Started! (April 2015)
    Breed Change - Announced: November 2009 ETA: Hell freezing They did it!!! (Oct 2012)
    Beta Server - Announced: January 2010 ETA: Pigs Flying Did it! (Feb 2014)

  10. #90
    Running in FP Advy isn't viable at the moment, in my opinion. We can only fp the lower lizard, so 6.6k hp with (FPable!) aura, or ~4k over doc buffs.
    You could try TP rrfe and a max HP setup maybe, against shade/MA where you just need to live through an alpha and then kite. Could try it with a pure AR setup to get decent HP.
    It feels strained though. I can't see anything doable that isn't easier in doc. The non-CH healing is similar, but you don't have the 2s downtime to cast other nanos. Also, half the healing rate on CH means you have to disengage pretty fast.
    Access to BoL might help. 30s lock on CH would be good, but that could make top lizard adv too strong.


    I absolutely agree with the AS weapon, and I'm happy silverback is back. I guess you're right about the perks. If the troll nerf has enough effect, there should be a decent advantage to keeping pistols up. Maybe the 80% is needed for overall balance.
    Would still be nice to have Agent evade engi/doc pistol (not champion) perks if they dedicate a setup to it. Perhaps the missing element is Agent evades, or maybe it's ok and I just don't know it yet.

    I agree with the NR idea. The way the % is implemented is off base non-trickle IP. What about 100 nanoskills for 200 NR at each level, or similar?
    One problem is many SL lines are critical for professions. Dumping a spare perk or two are viable, but the whole line would need a significant benefit. Maybe a rework of the damage perks?
    Last edited by srompu; Apr 12th, 2015 at 11:38:33.

  11. #91
    They nerfed top lizard FPability? awwww it says FP on the .22 DB rip. FC may need to change the adv ch cooldown anyway if they are reducing adv evades so much in lizard and healing so much in wolf as they currently seem to be.

    As for NR - make it 4 perks long, each perk gives 500 NR for -150 nanoskills unlocking at 50/100/150/200. I feel like 2000 NR for 600 nanoskills is a pretty good tradeoff at 220, for the professions who might be interested.
    TBH a lot of lines could use reducing. Stuff like NR/Worm Ice/SD shouldn't be 8-10 perks when acrobat is 4.
    New Engine - Announced: June 2007 ETA: Soon™ I'm speechless (June 2015)
    Rebalancing - Announced: January 2009 ETA: December 21, 2012 Started! (April 2015)
    New TL7 Pets - Announced: March 2009 ETA: Uh...
    AS Changes - Announced: July 2009 ETA: TBA
    Parry/Riposte - Announced: October 2009 ETA: ??? Did it! (April 2015)
    Perk Changes - Announced: October 2009 ETA: Right after server merge Started! (April 2015)
    Breed Change - Announced: November 2009 ETA: Hell freezing They did it!!! (Oct 2012)
    Beta Server - Announced: January 2010 ETA: Pigs Flying Did it! (Feb 2014)

  12. #92
    @knuckle: yeah, its about live, thats why i said "i logged my agent" followed by observations, but good we cleared that up. did not know that pistol perks will go back to 100%. also, i don't want to argue about the crat ar, mine is gimpy, so i do think 2,7 is easily possible, but i don't have one in 3k setup so i'll go with what you said.

    @srompu: thanks. you're aware and that's all that matters. happy to have you as prof.

    edit: also for the nr1, back a while ago, nr1 was highly benefical as you could in fact resist quite some stuff with it which often gave you the time to finish off someone before being crippled - especially since so many profs could disable our only defense. i even went nr2, which is even better for this, markedly better, but it does involve goofing yourself hard so i dropped it out of laziness. but for me, nr1 was a must have. it was the bit of nr which tipped you from being shut down instantly to resisting an ubt or drain or nsd or ri here and there.
    Last edited by Xootch; Apr 12th, 2015 at 15:03:43.

  13. #93
    How much NR you get with NR1, Xootch?

  14. #94
    something like 2.5k iirc.

  15. #95
    2.5k NR is what I get too.
    It appears the rootproc is unbreakable.
    Also, added some perk/weapon changes to the bottom of OP under .24 section. Shadowsneak is nicer, CoNC tweaked so feast is worse but BC is better.

  16. #96
    Well, may be that the "resist nano line" part of NR1 is too awesome.

    If you FP NT you can cast Izgimmer's Mockery for 140 NR, then TP Doc and you get 142(200 after 18.7 patch) with Improved Nano Repulsor, which is 18 points short of the 300 NR you get by perking NR1.

    Also, I think the flexibility of TP is better than the "resist nano lines" specially with the upcoming patch as CH is nerfed and you are going to need to cast things in other FPs, so going NR is not going to be an option anymore. Combining FPs with TP and Agent-only nanos like Two Left Feet and the escape nanos is going to be the norm. Since the requirements for all FPs changed, I imagine, the agent to go with preferred mimic, then surprise with TP, escape nano, two left feet and alpha, and if all fails mimic again and escape or finish the opponent.

    That is going mimic/Agent/mimic, there's also Agent/mimic and also agent/mimic/agent.

    ...I like these changes.

  17. #97
    what makes you think i can't tp under nr1 or cast these nanos in nr1? also, i have not suggested for you or anyone to do this, not now not after the patch.

  18. #98
    so. thanks to the changes to tp, i spend a few rounds playing fixer, soldier and engi. wasn't all that bad even though i didn't have defenses most of the time.

    tp has to be cleared upon battlestation, right now i can sign up every 20 min.


    edit: oh and nice job on the rifle buff.

  19. #99
    As Adventurers have gotten the ability to switch morph very quick I can't see the problem of Agents getting the TP cooldown reduced as well. What would be so bad if it where 10min? and why does it have to be such a high req. and only useable for paid players.

    Make two version
    Low lvl usable, will remove the FP but the Agent will keep the debuffs from that previous FP!!! Usable from lvl 50 cooldown 10min // maintaining the debuff effect from the FP used! for 5min.
    Second version: the current version but usable from TL 7. Cooldown 10min, not maintaining the FP debuff like the lower version.
    Last edited by Zwelgje; Apr 24th, 2015 at 13:05:34.

  20. #100
    well the current version is like the old version, just it doesnt reset on death and isnt cleared upon entering bs. the latter is unacceptable. of course i wouldn't mind a reduced cooldown

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