18.7.0.20 - Traders!

[Raggy]

The only place I can think of where you can't predrain is right as BS starts. Duel room needs a drain totem too. Traders have always predrained. This is not really new. All four drains can be PvMed, which is a really nice change.

It's a bad change because we now have to actively seek out a method of pre-draining before a fight instead of being able to self drain on the spot. While I understand that people think it's a bug, it was a necessary evil to deal with our abysmal base checks.

I have a straight face because I said fully. It's absolutely true. Who you afraid of currently? The guy you have ~12 seconds to drain peacefully, or the shade/enfo dropping the hammer on you out of nowhere? The fight usually gets better the longer it goes.

We're afraid of both, because both have the ability to just simply either ignore us or destroy us on a whim. We either get alpha'd or the fight lasts for so long someone else shows up.

And of course 300 AAD means something. I'm not saying it's enough, or traders are fixed, but it's a Good Thing.

Assuming we can pre-drain somewhere before the fight.

The extra 275 is what I'm trying to explain. You have 300 AAD up from CP, you drain 300 AR from your target using IS, and you drain 275 from your target using Plunder. I haven't seen one person who admits to understanding this. Please say you do. Say you love me. Be mine.

Here is where you slip up. Go roll a Trader on Test, equip it and do some duels. It's abysmally clear you havn't done that because you're not getting this at all, so let me put it in huge bold letters for you.

DEPRIVE AND PLUNDER ARE NOW OVERWRITTEN BY CORPORATE PROTECTION AND INDUSTRIAL SABOTAGE. THE OFFENSIVE DEBUFF, NO LONGER STACKS

Honestly, apart from some time/value tweaks, I don't think what traders really need is massive def rating. Evades are off/on against perks, and non-NM trader is begging to get alphaed. If you get enough def to be alpha-immune, it'll be OP and you'll still get ganked by full AR setups. I think traders need a huge burst heal, either from fixing purple heart or from an improved 50% NR health plunder or something. But that's just, like, my opinion, man.

Fun fact: A fully drained Pistol user in Live still has the ability to perk a completely end-gamed Trader. And with the defensive checks on perks being lowered and our defence getting destroyed, we won't be able to PvP at all. Also stop trying to balance the profession around Nanomages, it's beyond stupid. Every other evade class is alpha-immune from the offset or has the ability to become alpha immune, we don't, why would it be OP? Because of drains? Oh you mean the things that have been utterly obliterated in their draining potential?

What would Purple Heart do other than kill us and heal our team? We're talking about Trader survivability, not everyone elses. And the NR on Plunder isn't the problem. We don't need more heals, we need more static defence, it really is that simple, but for some reason you keep trying to tell us it's not.

[Saetos]

I think he means a fix to Purple Heart where it heals us too and then cripples us a lot less heavily (perhaps like a giant version of Delayed Health Payment) but then the effectiveness of that is suspect at best.

[lufa1982]

What, we're having another round of Srompumathics after we've debunked it all the first time?

Dude, how about you figure out how new stacking for drains actually works, before you hit the forums and waste more space on the internet, all right?

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Fun fact: A fully drained Pistol user in Live still has the ability to perk a completely end-gamed Trader.

I think you need some qualifiers there. That's a pretty ballsy statement if I ever heard one.

[Cratertina]

Hehe, its true, on my advy I resonably well rolfstomp traders. Drain, two, who cares, the moment shutdown stops I press mongo rage and destroy. Sometimes MR is not needed at all, trader gets scared and pops shield, then just spam him out of nano and perk.

I hope you all can see on Advy and Fix forums there are no complaints at troaler nerf, at survivability, or at trader owning them baddly.

only gimp professions cry.

[Raggy]

I think you need some qualifiers there. That's a pretty ballsy statement if I ever heard one.

Deadeye: 80% Dodge Ranged check.
Endgame Trader Effective Defence when fully drained: 3100

Amount of AR required to perk 3100?

2480.

We can remove 1.3k AR when fully drained, so you'd need to have 3780AR to begin with to 100% land the perk when fully drained. And thanks to the way percentages work, you'd still probably be able to reliably land it with an 80% success rate at around 2k AR. So starting at 3.3k.

It's most certainly not out of the realms of possibility. It happens alot because lol statistics and it's going to happen alot more with the revised perk checks.

[lufa1982]

Advs can still destroy you while fully drained, yeah.

Fighting Advs in open PvP on Trader is one of my biggest **** this **** moments in AO. You throw all your debuffs on the dude and it barely seems to slow down his offensive output.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Deadeye: 80% Dodge Ranged check.
Endgame Trader Effective Defence when fully drained: 3100

Are you sure about this? This seems retardedly low.

I always felt like traders were sitting at around 3500-3600 defence with CP.

Amount of AR required to perk 3100?

2480.

We can remove 1.3k AR when fully drained, so you'd need to have 3780AR to begin with to 100% land the perk when fully drained. And thanks to the way percentages work, you'd still probably be able to reliably land it with an 80% success rate at around 2k AR. So starting at 3.3k.

It's most certainly not out of the realms of possibility. It happens alot because lol statistics and it's going to happen alot more with the revised perk checks.

So, what you're saying here is if you don't have an evade setup, and you don't bother to farm predator or awakening, and you're fighting someone who is in an AR setup, and they HAVE farmed Predator and Awakening, and perhaps they also have a tower or two...

Then it's true?

That's the reason I said you need some qualifiers. It's generally accepted to assume no towers and both targets having pred/awakening, or neither target having pred/awakening.

But it's a moot point if you assume one person does and the other person doesn't.

Advs can still destroy you while fully drained, yeah.

Fighting Advs in open PvP on Trader is one of my biggest **** this **** moments in AO. You throw all your debuffs on the dude and it barely seems to slow down his offensive output.

That is sort of true.

But it's mostly not true.

One would assume that in open PVP you're teamed and OSB'd, and if you're not, you're getting biased results. teaming in open PVP invariably boosts defense MORE than it boosts offense.

Crat gives total 410AAD+100AAD+50AAD with 500AAD for 20s/120s 260AAO+100AAO+25AAO
Engi gives 7 blockers + 24% reflects, 120 AR (pistol)
Soldier gives 30% reflects + some special skill
keeper gives 210 AAD+110AAO + 20s 216 AAO/126 evades /110s 140 evade/40dr/40duck (lets say it stays up in continuous fighting)
Advy gives 265 evades + 30AAO if you're wolfed which you should be
Second Trader potentially for 153 AR
I'll assume you keep IQU>GSF


That's a total of: 1075 static dodge, 7 blockers on 30s refresh and 30% reflects (with intermittent boosts of up to 500 more AAD)

And total offensive boosts of: ~800 AAO/skill (with intermittent boosts of another 216 AR)

So overall a trader *should* have better defence while teamed in open PVP than what he would normally have in a 1 vs 1 scenario, provided the RL has built teams effectively, and the trader and the advy aren't off in BFE duking it out like non-assister noobs.

With those offensive and defensive boosts, a trader should not be able to put an advy into OE (by my estimations), but also should be nearly untouchable with exception of AI perks in a 1vs 1 situation with no-one else targeting the trader.

That said, advy vs trader is a tough fight 1 vs 1. normal hits will land a lot, specials will land a lot, and advy keeps his nearly "untouchable" evades/absorbs going with the only real slowdown being his BoL <should> be uncastable if double/triple drained. On my opi advy traders aren't considered a threat.

But, when I put my trader in my crat/advy/keeper/engi box... he's WTF untouchable.

[Raggy]

Are you sure about this? This seems retardedly low.

I always felt like traders were sitting at around 3500-3600 defence with CP.

Yeah, you're right, I ballsed up my calcs on that one.

Our effective defence when fully Drained is in the region of 4453, our static defence is 3100.


That being said, I do find myself being perked an awful lot despite having my drains up on targets and the main offender does seem to be the PM line. And it's not just by Atrox players either.

But, when I put my trader in my crat/advy/keeper/engi box... he's WTF untouchable.

You could put a Phulak MP in that thing and it'd be untouchable.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

You could put a Phulak MP in that thing and it'd be untouchable.

How about an evade setup engi/doc?

I did some back of the envelope calcs and I figured with a few swaps and a CSS setup+NMTC+evade hud 3 I could get my engi up to 4k Defence.

I'm hoping for the same result or approximate result on doctor.

In terms of staying power, it doesn't really matter how hard your AS hits if the opponent can't hit you once blockers are down.

I'm thinking of putting a trader in there as well to debuff attackers to put effective defence on the engi/doc at around 4300.

imo there's some real value there.

[lufa1982]

That's a total of: 1075 static dodge, 7 blockers on 30s refresh and 30% reflects (with intermittent boosts of up to 500 more AAD)

And total offensive boosts of: ~800 AAO/skill (with intermittent boosts of another 216 AR)

Ya, but 1 aao is typically worth more than 1 AAD due to AI perks and PM perks.

Anyhow, the drains vs. Adv are just really wonky. A lot of people think drains are this WTF-godlike shutdown tool, and vs. most classes they absolutely are. Adv though? Often you double drain the guy and the difference is barely perceptible.

And I specifically referenced open-PvP, not because of outside buffs, but because of procs. In a toe to toe duel your proc landrate increases drastically and that WILL shut Adv down.

In uncontrolled environment though, Trader can't afford to just stand like a lemon.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

fair 'nuff.

[Xootch]

Ya, but 1 aao is typically worth more than 1 AAD due to AI perks and PM perks.

Anyhow, the drains vs. Adv are just really wonky. A lot of people think drains are this WTF-godlike shutdown tool, and vs. most classes they absolutely are. Adv though? Often you double drain the guy and the difference is barely perceptible.

And I specifically referenced open-PvP, not because of outside buffs, but because of procs. In a toe to toe duel your proc landrate increases drastically and that WILL shut Adv down.

In uncontrolled environment though, Trader can't afford to just stand like a lemon.

i have questions.

in open pvp, usually i'd take 1 aad over 1 aao any time of the day. regular hits do nothing in open pvp, dd perks rarely turn tides, specials are the main dd tool there, and traders as will hit just as well with 1 aao give or take. you might live a tad longer tho if you can evade some bursts, flings and fas. where am i wrong?

and why advies? without osbs like ep, my advys ar is less than my fixers. let alone than my soldiers or enfs. not all too great regular hits, specials are mehish as their ar isn't great. so i do think it'd effect my dd output tremendously. i have not dueled a trader on my advy though. a fact i never noticed until today tbh btw i do see the pm thing, but that should effect crats just as much - afaik crats have comparable ar (not sure, my crat is pvm only). just curious here really what makes advies in particular to do better than others when drained offensive wise.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

i have questions.

in open pvp, usually i'd take 1 aad over 1 aao any time of the day. regular hits do nothing in open pvp, dd perks rarely turn tides, specials are the main dd tool there, and traders as will hit just as well with 1 aao give or take. you might live a tad longer tho if you can evade some bursts, flings and fas. where am i wrong?

and why advies? without osbs like ep, my advys ar is less than my fixers. let alone than my soldiers or enfs. not all too great regular hits, specials are mehish as their ar isn't great. so i do think it'd effect my dd output tremendously. i have not dueled a trader on my advy though. a fact i never noticed until today tbh btw i do see the pm thing, but that should effect crats just as much - afaik crats have comparable ar (not sure, my crat is pvm only). just curious here really what makes advies in particular to do better than others when drained offensive wise.

My NM crat (full CSS/alphas/280ish EOE) has about 2840 AR
My (only missing ACDC) opi advy full arti alphas+usual support) has about 3300 AR
both with pred+awakening.
Engi with similar to crat setup but with AS/pistol/fling RW, and no EOE (AS/intel/pistol Eye imp) has about 2900ish AR

Edit: Advy may go a fair bit higher - I usually operate advy in maxed evade setup, but you can swap in about 150 AR in 5 swaps quite easily - and advy is in full CCS as well

[lufa1982]

i have questions.

in open pvp, usually i'd take 1 aad over 1 aao any time of the day. regular hits do nothing in open pvp, dd perks rarely turn tides, specials are the main dd tool there, and traders as will hit just as well with 1 aao give or take. you might live a tad longer tho if you can evade some bursts, flings and fas. where am i wrong?

and why advies? without osbs like ep, my advys ar is less than my fixers. let alone than my soldiers or enfs. not all too great regular hits, specials are mehish as their ar isn't great. so i do think it'd effect my dd output tremendously. i have not dueled a trader on my advy though. a fact i never noticed until today tbh btw i do see the pm thing, but that should effect crats just as much - afaik crats have comparable ar (not sure, my crat is pvm only). just curious here really what makes advies in particular to do better than others when drained offensive wise.

Well I agree that specials>perks , I just thought it should be pointed out that 1000 aad vs. 800 aao is not always clear cut better.

As for Advs, I was just sharing my experience, never really bothered to theorycraft why they hurt so much. A lot of people will just haul ass if you double drained them, but Advs just stand, tank you and they're still a threat.

Part of the reason is obviously Troa'ler which will still hurt a lot even with double drained.

[srompu]

You lose the 300 AAO debuff on target if you swap to plunder.

No, IS shares cooldown with Divest, not Plunder. That's the point.

Here is where you slip up. Go roll a Trader on Test, equip it and do some duels. It's abysmally clear you havn't done that because you're not getting this at all, so let me put it in huge bold letters for you.

You want a fraps? CP casts a 300 AAD buff on you. IS removes 300 AR from the target. Plunder removes 275 AR from the target. Doesn't matter that Plunder's offensive debuff doesn't stack with CP's offensive debuff, because CP's debuff is -AAD, not -AAO.
Can anyone understand this? Saetos? I suppose it doesn't matter at this point.

Fun fact: A fully drained Pistol user in Live still has the ability to perk a completely end-gamed Trader. And with the defensive checks on perks being lowered and our defence getting destroyed, we won't be able to PvP at all. Also stop trying to balance the profession around Nanomages, it's beyond stupid. Every other evade class is alpha-immune from the offset or has the ability to become alpha immune, we don't, why would it be OP? Because of drains? Oh you mean the things that have been utterly obliterated in their draining potential?

What would Purple Heart do other than kill us and heal our team? We're talking about Trader survivability, not everyone elses. And the NR on Plunder isn't the problem. We don't need more heals, we need more static defence, it really is that simple, but for some reason you keep trying to tell us it's not.

That's a false fact.
Where did I talk about Nanomages?
Purple heart would be, as I said,

fixed

because it's trash right now.

[lufa1982]

You want a fraps? CP casts a 300 AAD buff on you. IS removes 300 AR from the target. Plunder removes 275 AR from the target. Doesn't matter that Plunder's offensive debuff doesn't stack with CP's offensive debuff, because CP's debuff is -AAD, not -AAO.
Can anyone understand this? Saetos? I suppose it doesn't matter at this point.

Just stahp, nobody takes you seriously anymore, since you obviously can't figure out how the whole thing works despite having it spelled out in caps several times.

[Missdjaxx]

@Raggy

on page 11 you wrote: trader have 1.3k Self Heal..pls tel me the name of that nano.
Thx

[Raggy]

@Raggy

on page 11 you wrote: trader have 1.3k Self Heal..pls tel me the name of that nano.
Thx

1k Health Drain/1.3k Self Heal

It scales with +DMG and Heal Eff%

Executing Nano Program: Improved Health Plunder.
You were healed for 1029 points.
You hit Guardian of Delusion with nanobots for 1245 points of energy damage.

With Medical HUD3 (3%HealEff)

Executing Nano Program: Improved Health Plunder.
You were healed for 1059 points.
You hit Guardian of Delusion with nanobots for 1245 points of energy damage.

With Divest Damage:

Executing Nano Program: Improved Health Plunder.
You were healed for 1029 points.
You hit Guardian of Delusion with nanobots for 1445 points of energy damage.

When I wrote that, I had a fair bit of Jathos, now I'm mostly CSS/OFAB so I've lost the healing portion.

[Raggy]

Or alternatively, this.

Executing Nano Program: Improved Health Haggler.
You were attacked with nanobots for 494 points of energy damage.
You were healed for 1900 points.