18.7.0.20 - Traders!

[dritst]

Ok, lets not blow things out of proportion here.

1. Traders are not fixers
2. Fixers are WTF OP so lets not try to balance against them
3. A trader isn't exactly open to a perk faceroll to others if he's playing properly - if a trader is playing in mass PVP or BS or something where there's a good chance he'll run into a second toon, he should be looking to either a) have elevated defences to avoid said faceroll, or b) always be shuffling so he can see incoming's. 3150 static+green hud+pred+12man+CP = 3775 buffed defence - don't bull**** about that - that's solid defence, and that's unperkable with SL perks for everyone outside a team with crat or a uberbuffed AR soldier.

About TL7:
That the gap between paper pvp and reallity. And taking as you did the exemple of Vispa perfectly show it, he is great for sure in duel but i didnt saw him a lot in mass pvp or even BS, and you still wondering why? -_-
3150 def+ 150 hud swap mearn first you got slow AS (and as trader most of time you rely on it). Futhermore 3775 def is perkable , my fixer got 3300 ar without pen, without debuff, enforcer perk you too, shade with SP will too ect ect.
Of course the target you are fighting might be unable to perk you (with CP) but other around will perk and that why atm this profession is painful, def is too low. But it is ok,it is quite challanging, we can deal with it or at least try to, tools like yiief/shield/gth/hhab ring/ coon -if nm- are great but trader are far from OP in mass/bs/city pvp (why do you think you nearly never saw them in borealis -_- except maybe oreozz). With the new change, traders gona be unviable really and that is pretty sad.

[Xootch]

About TL7:
That the gap between paper pvp and reallity. And taking as you did the exemple of Vispa perfectly show it, he is great for sure in duel but i didnt saw him a lot in mass pvp or even BS, and you still wondering why? -_-
3150 def+ 150 hud swap mearn first you got slow AS (and as trader most of time you rely on it). Futhermore 3775 def is perkable , my fixer got 3300 ar without pen, without debuff, enforcer perk you too, shade with SP will too ect ect.
Of course the target you are fighting might be unable to perk you (with CP) but other around will perk and that why atm this profession is painful, def is too low. But it is ok,it is quite challanging, we can deal with it or at least try to, tools like yiief/shield/gth/hhab ring/ coon -if nm- are great but trader are far from OP in mass/bs/city pvp (why do you think you nearly never saw them in borealis -_- except maybe oreozz). With the new change, traders gona be unviable really and that is pretty sad.

i completely agree with you on the difference between paper pvp and reality because i have gotten into arguments with knuckle many many many times over this.

now i don't know much about trader pvp and even though i can understand why people take sal as a reference for trader pvp, i think its speculative to deduct things from how often you see him where. for instance: he definetly does bs pvp as i have pvped with him there many times. also, my guess would be that he shows up at tower pvp with different toons for two reasons: 1.he gets preferentially targeted and 2. he leads. i would recommend to ask him for his opinion instead of assuming it. but that's just my 2c.

[lufa1982]

Ok, lets not blow things out of proportion here.

1. Traders are not fixers
2. Fixers are WTF OP so lets not try to balance against them

Why would I not try to balance against Fixers, exactly? We're talking about defense against one target that has to be earned by landing debuffs, as opposed to standing defense vs. entire planet. I don't see how that's an unrealistic target.

3. A trader isn't exactly open to a perk faceroll to others if he's playing properly - if a trader is playing in mass PVP or BS or something where there's a good chance he'll run into a second toon, he should be looking to either a) have elevated defences to avoid said faceroll, or b) always be shuffling so he can see incoming's. 3150 static+green hud+pred+12man+CP = 3775 buffed defence - don't bull**** about that - that's solid defence, and that's unperkable with SL perks for everyone outside a team with crat or a uberbuffed AR soldier.

3775 defence is great, no joke. Or it would be, if it was real. But your entire calculation is just an exercise in paper PvP.

1.The standing defense of endgame Trader is 3100 at most. Higher would require towers.

2. Green HUD with the Silverback nerf puts you at +20s Aimed Shot recharge, meaning you're literally not killing anyone, ever. I don't mind sacrificing offense for defense. But expecting me to lose 100% damage output from my only reliable weapon special, doesn't just sacrifice my offensive output. Its making it completely negligible.

3. World buffs? Really? What if the other guy gets world buffs? Well then I don't have +175 def, do I? I have gained 0. Or in fact, I have gained below 0, because of low def check SL perks and AI perks, where benefit of aao is bigger then aad.

4. CP can't be counted as a static defense. This isn't a defensive perk you can just effortlessly pop at will. It requires me to open up, and if I can open up, people can open up on me and queue all the perks before CP is up.

You can't be theorycrafting defenses based on artificial scenarios like having world buffs, towers, or getting jump on someone with CP. That's not how real world PvP works. For all practical purposes, the standing defense of endgame Trader is ~3100. And 3100 is in fact, perkable, by everybody.

[Raggy]

We also can't keep looking at one person (Vispa) in an extremely specific setup designed around 1v1 BS survival as the goto point of data gathering for TL7 PvP. It'd be damning to do so.

We shouldn't be balancing against the highest point of entry, but instead looking before it. Do Enfos/Fixers/Engys/Shades/Advies/Soldiers need to be in an extremely specific and specialised build to be effective? No, they don't. Why should we?

Balance should be around the average, not the extreme. If we're going to be focusing on the extreme, I want to do everything a Shade can do in PvP without the compromise in PvM efficiency like we currently have.

[lufa1982]

Yeah, exactly. Fixating on one person performance is madness. The baseline for balance can't be 1 vs 1 duel record of a 220/30/70 char with absolute endgame setup, including bunch of evade towers.

That, and we're debating 18.7 Traders, 18.6 performance is completely irrelevant. You can be best player in the universe, but the way AO works, you can't outskill your way out of becoming perkable.

[Vispa]

Since I'm being brought up a lot and have talked about it a ton in game, I figure I'll repost here and answer a bit.

I already posted what I thought of the changes, and still stick to it. We are being thrown under the bridge, hell, beyond. Unless we push for things to be adjusted, we will continue to become extinct (tl7). More than we already have.

As for my personal setup, no, i am not just setup for one specific thing. I also do not lack anything in terms of having something IPed that other pvp traders who BS more than i do have. ( Yes, I've been asked if I have no Ip in runspeed since duels are toe to toe usually ;P) I can go from nanoskills, ar, complete evades with really low HP to more HP than the average trader for mass situation. Yea, obviously I'm endgame setup. And I do have towers this time around. Hardly ever have had though. And I completely agree, one person who has been playing a specific class for so long, on top of being geared to the max, doing well shouldn't be the baseline in terms of how a class does in general.

There's a few reasons I don't join Battlestation like I used to on trader. The walls added are stupid. BS used to be a playground for traders. It was the most fun thing to do and could even go for hours on end. (baiting people to follow you and break from their team was my favorite) Second being that the newer sitkits remove drains on one click. With portals not having any type of cooldown, everyone can and does abuse portaling to remove them. And lastly are the amount of spawn points. Sure, it helped spawn camping a bit, but it also added the advantage of being able to come back over and over. With how unbalanced BS is, that tiny advantage is enough to screw over traders along with other not so top notch classes. Of course, this is another issue on it's own.

As for towers and such, like Xootch said, I lead. Much easier to do so when im not being called right away

[Raggy]

Since I'm being brought up a lot and have talked about it a ton in game, I figure I'll repost here and answer a bit.

I already posted what I thought of the changes, and still stick to it. We are being thrown under the bridge, hell, beyond. Unless we push for things to be adjusted, we will continue to become extinct (tl7). More than we already have.

As for my personal setup, no, i am not just setup for one specific thing. I also do not lack anything in terms of having something IPed that other pvp traders who BS more than i do have. ( Yes, I've been asked if I have no Ip in runspeed since duels are toe to toe usually ;P) I can go from nanoskills, ar, complete evades with really low HP to more HP than the average trader for mass situation. Yea, obviously I'm endgame setup. And I do have towers this time around. Hardly ever have had though. And I completely agree, one person who has been playing a specific class for so long, on top of being geared to the max, doing well shouldn't be the baseline in terms of how a class does in general.

There's a few reasons I don't join Battlestation like I used to on trader. The walls added are stupid. BS used to be a playground for traders. It was the most fun thing to do and could even go for hours on end. (baiting people to follow you and break from their team was my favorite) Second being that the newer sitkits remove drains on one click. With portals not having any type of cooldown, everyone can and does abuse portaling to remove them. And lastly are the amount of spawn points. Sure, it helped spawn camping a bit, but it also added the advantage of being able to come back over and over. With how unbalanced BS is, that tiny advantage is enough to screw over traders along with other not so top notch classes. Of course, this is another issue on it's own.

As for towers and such, like Xootch said, I lead. Much easier to do so when im not being called right away

Thanks for posting here Vispa, and by my setup remark, it was more to highlight that everyone is focusing on the Trader having a complete AAD/Evade build, that's what I meant by 'specific setup' not your own personal one

[Saetos]

Even discounting judging a class based on one person, Vispa's post was certainly one of the most important in this thread and should very much reflect the truest nature of what will happen come 18.7.

[Vispa]

Thanks for posting here Vispa, and by my setup remark, it was more to highlight that everyone is focusing on the Trader having a complete AAD/Evade build, that's what I meant by 'specific setup' not your own personal one

Aha, kind of went over my head a tad. So used to odd questions like the RS one. You are right though, balance shouldn't revolve around complete endgame. It's currently the only way to perform good to an extent and needs to change. The current changes... push that further :x

Even discounting judging a class based on one person, Vispa's post was certainly one of the most important in this thread and should very much reflect the truest nature of what will happen come 18.7.

Indeed, we can't let this happen :P Our class is and will be the hardest/longest to get right in terms of balance. With everything else mentioned we have plenty of room to ask for fairness.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Why would I not try to balance against Fixers, exactly? We're talking about defense against one target that has to be earned by landing debuffs, as opposed to standing defense vs. entire planet. I don't see how that's an unrealistic target.

So, let me get this straight.

Your "target" is to get traders to have STANDING defence the same as fixers?

Because that's what those two sentences say.

So... just to be clear here... You want traders to have 4k+ defence PRIOR to landing a debuff?

What is this? Joke hour?



You need to be realistic.

MA's STANDING defence is about 3200. (no pred, no awakening, no towers, no green hud 3) MA's are an evade prof so this is directly comparable.
Advy STANDING defence is about 3200. (no pred, no awakening, no towers, no green hud 3) Advy is an evade prof so this is directly comparable.
Crat is about 3400 (my NM crat) in full CSS.

Now look Trader STANDING defence is 3100 you say?

Well, trader uses CP and he's at 3400.

Advy uses limber, he's at 3400.
MA uses limber he's at 3400.

The point here is that live is not so far out of balance, not so ridiculously bad for traders as some of you guys are making it out to be.

If you don't have towers and you "need" towers.... go get towers!
If you don't have raid buffs, get a goddamn pen key and make a team for DB2, it takes 11 minutes to get 150 AAO/AAD... and if you got some mates, do 12m. takes 20 minutes. No biggie.

Attempting to say traders are nerf on live is stupid. Sure, they are one of those "borderline" profs.... But so are all the evade profs aside from fixer (who we all agree is stupid OP).

If you don't like getting perked... roll a fixer or team a crat+keeper get raidbuffs and towers and slot in more AAD/evades. But some of you guys are asking for both sides of EXACTLY the thing that makes AO what it is and always has been: a trade off.

You can't have 11s AS AND be fully unperkable, you can't have 3800 AR AND be unperkable to everyone.

Also, your second point in your list is complete garbage. You can't say that going from an 11s AS to a 20s AS makes your offense "negligible" You're off your rocker. you're using hyperbole to try to make a point, but it's actually only undermining your argument because it makes you incredulous. A trader makes kills vs NANO healing profs not with AS, but with steady, unmitigated damage, that comes from normal/crits/fling/flingcrits/AI perks/perks/SO/and AS finisher. If you can't sort that out in combat... then maybe you're playing the wrong prof?

[Cratertina]

Ah come on, at 220 Nothing is as sure kill as trader, you mash perks, specials and in next round of specials trader is dead. If not dead yet, do third roubd of AS.

That is live now. Any chance trader has is outranging the opponent.

Offcorse at lowbie levels its totally diffrent. Drains should scale with level of target from 20 at lvl 1 to 420 at 220 half of it should be AAO.

Really trader needs more at high level and less at low level.

Maybe drain evades nano. Imagine stealin 400 dodge just before fixer tries to perk you.

[lufa1982]

So, let me get this straight.

Your "target" is to get traders to have STANDING defence the same as fixers?

Because that's what those two sentences say.

How on earth the sentence where I'm talking about active defense vs. one target after landing all debuffs, gave you the idea that I'm talking about static defense? Dude.

You made the point that Traders debuffing someone to the point where target has no chance is overpowered. And I just don't see how, considering there are professions in this game that can get the same amount of defense, when attacked by entire server population, while standing afk in Borealis.

[Raggy]

There is huge amount I disagree with here dude, sorry. I'll go through it bit by bit though.

So, let me get this straight.

Your "target" is to get traders to have STANDING defence the same as fixers?

Because that's what those two sentences say.

So... just to be clear here... You want traders to have 4k+ defence PRIOR to landing a debuff?

What is this? Joke hour?

It was more a joke about how these profs are able to have these things yet we're constrained by so many factors that make us mediocre at our very best.

You need to be realistic.

MA's STANDING defence is about 3200. (no pred, no awakening, no towers, no green hud 3) MA's are an evade prof so this is directly comparable.

Despite the fact that MAs have access to Arcobat, Unstunnable, 2 capping attacks (SA/AS) and a far more significant heal. On top of the fact 3.1k Static defence for a Trader is with as much gear in defence as possible? You cannot even compare MA to Trader, MA has FAR more defence.

Advy STANDING defence is about 3200. (no pred, no awakening, no towers, no green hud 3) Advy is an evade prof so this is directly comparable.

Despite having Acrobat, Coon/Rej, CH? And STILL having more static defence than a Trader in full defensive gear?

Crat is about 3400 (my NM crat) in full CSS.

Despite having CiB, init debuffs and demotivational?

Now look, Trader STANDING defence in full defensive is 3100 you say?

All 3 of these are nowhere NEAR comparable.

Well, trader uses CP and he's at 3400.

Advy uses limber, he's at 3400.
MA uses limber he's at 3400.

All the while any Advy or MA with Acrobat is going to be cycling DoF/Limber so they will ALWAYS be at a minimum of 3400 and it spikes even higher to 4000 when DoF comes back up off CD. This number is against ANYTHING THAT TARGETS THE MA/Advy. Not just a single target like with Traders.

The point here is that live is not so far out of balance, not so ridiculously bad for traders as some of you guys are making it out to be.

Have you actually PvP'd on your Trader at all? I mean, seriously now.

If you don't have towers and you "need" towers.... go get towers!
If you don't have raid buffs, get a goddamn pen key and make a team for DB2, it takes 11 minutes to get 150 AAO/AAD... and if you got some mates, do 12m. takes 20 minutes. No biggie.

And as was said before, if your opponents have towers/Xan/DB2, then what?

Attempting to say traders are nerf on live is stupid. Sure, they are one of those "borderline" profs.... But so are all the evade profs aside from fixer (who we all agree is stupid OP).

I'm rapidly losing the ability to take you seriously if you think Advy/MA and Crat are borderline profs.

If you don't like getting perked... roll a fixer or team a crat+keeper get raidbuffs and towers and slot in more AAD/evades. But some of you guys are asking for both sides of EXACTLY the thing that makes AO what it is and always has been: a trade off.

So your solution to Traders being bad at TL7 PvP is... to roll another prof? Are you for real right now!? Also 3.1k is already the higher end of an endgamed AAD Trader. Also, what's this 'Trade-off' you speak of? Advies/Crats/Fixers/Enfos/Shades don't make any trade-offs whatsoever.

You can't have 11s AS AND be fully unperkable, you can't have 3800 AR AND be unperkable to everyone.

Fixers. Shades. Crats. Enfos.

Also, your second point in your list is complete garbage. You can't say that going from an 11s AS to a 20s AS makes your offense "negligible" You're off your rocker. you're using hyperbole to try to make a point, but it's actually only undermining your argument because it makes you incredulous. A trader makes kills vs NANO healing profs not with AS, but with steady, unmitigated damage, that comes from normal/crits/fling/flingcrits/AI perks/perks/SO/and AS finisher. If you can't sort that out in combat... then maybe you're playing the wrong prof?

Have you actually tried doing damage on a PvP Trader? Our perks hit for such laughably low amounts.


I really hope this was an elaborate troll, if so 11/10, you baited like a pro.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

How on earth the sentence where I'm talking about active defense vs. one target after landing all debuffs, gave you the idea that I'm talking about static defense? Dude.

You made the point that Traders debuffing someone to the point where target has no chance is overpowered. And I just don't see how, considering there are professions in this game that can get the same amount of defense, when attacked by entire server population, while standing afk in Borealis.

Ok.. try to write more clearly then. Because what you're writing is vague.

How about if I ask you straight out 3 questions:

1. What do you think trader's evasion level should be in their standard combat setup (and don't try to twist words here, I'm saying, whatever you "usually" use, i.e. full alphas/full CSS/notucomm/snipers friend/ infused AI defender/275 scope/ACDC/infused vision enhancer and a DB evasion module+DB evades NCU/ etc. endgame/normal combat perk setup, buffed with IQU) - I believe the answer to this question, if nothing substantial has changed is 3100-3150 (from live + recent posts)

2. what do you think traders medium evasion level should be? This is like, you see a dude running towards you and launch you FIRST nano/drain. Now what's your evasion level?

3. how much MORE do you need on top of that that won't make traders OP?

[Saetos]

Wait. Are you seriously implying that we are meant to take off 70% of player health WITHOUT AimedShot in mere seconds? Because that's all we have now. With a 20 second AimedShot sans scope that's kind if what we'll need to do and that's horribly unfeasible if even Easy Shot can't land (because then our new Point Blank certainly won't).

Also - "steady, unmitigated damage". Remember those evades we've been hawking about? Undrained our AR really is not that impressive and normals and Flings won't hit for jack. So that leaves us with Vital Shock and Easy Shot. Maybe. Oh and Inferno kizzers I guess. I don't get it.

[McKnuckleSamwich]

@ raggy, learn what other profs have, and don't compare apples with oranges.

You're trying to make me out to be unrealistic, but EVERYTHING in that post is bang on.

The reality is that several of you guys are trying to make traders out to be more nerf than they are because you want more standing/buffable evades. But if you want that, you need to consider how much you are capable of debuffing your opponent.

On live, a trader can drain 150 AAO and 325 skill on divest (that's an effective gain of 425 evades)
THEN drain with CP to further increase the balance by 650 points, and boost evades to any subsequent encounter by 300 evades (now you're at limber level with advy/MA/crat)

If you want more than that, fine - but then you got to give something up. Because the reality is that in ANY 2 on 1 situation, you should be at the furthest reaches of your ability to pull out a win, not just "LOL I have drains/heals/sorbs/DTN's/11sAS/unperkable/watch while I cripple dude1/crippledude2/disco"

[McKnuckleSamwich]

Wait. Are you seriously implying that we are meant to take off 70% of player health WITHOUT AimedShot in mere seconds? Because that's all we have now. With a 20 second AimedShot sans scope that's kind if what we'll need to do and that's horribly unfeasible if even Easy Shot can't land (because then our new Point Blank certainly won't).

Also - "steady, unmitigated damage". Remember those evades we've been hawking about? Undrained our AR really is not that impressive and normals and Flings won't hit for jack. So that leaves us with Vital Shock and Easy Shot. Maybe. Oh and Inferno kizzers I guess. I don't get it.

why would you be fighting undrained?

?????????????? This is the most retarded discussion I've seen on forums in years. The traders who are involved in some of these discussion are acting as if they should be "unperkable" and kill machines without drains, standing with a SWS XII and DOF up perma. WTF are you guys on?

Saetos: If you want to try some combat without draining, I have some toons that I'd love to boost their duel score on (they are naked by the way, so don't cheat by using your toolset).

[Saetos]

On test I mashed Divest Improved against others, MAs and Keepers especially. At one point in at least seven tries it never landed. We almost never use drained AR to judge our prowess due to the horrifically fickle nature of NR (and now it'll potentially take upwards of 7 seconds to even get our drains STARTED). It should take effort to get us online but when we must spend potentially ten seconds or more to get us in fighting shape, that is utterly stupid.

We are designed to be weak at the outset and strong at the finish as debuffs eventually overwhelm opponents. But right now that is not the case. Drains that we CANNOT rely on can NEVER be part of our class if we are to fit this vision, as currently on Test, we're a complete cheesecake class without drains and only mediocre when everything has finally landed... if we're alive.

[lufa1982]

Ok.. try to write more clearly then. Because what you're writing is vague.

How about if I ask you straight out 3 questions:

1. What do you think trader's evasion level should be in their standard combat setup. I believe the answer to this question, if nothing substantial has changed is 3100-3150 (from live + recent posts)

What do you mean if nothing substantial has changed. I've lost 700 def from drains, 10% reflect and SS. That's what changed, and I expect that to be compensated, one way or another. Thats what this entire thread is about, I don't know if you're trolling at this point or haven't even bother to read the Trader changes.

why would you be fighting undrained?

Because...Funcom forced me to? If I can't predrain, I'm undrained. Imagine that.

This is the most retarded discussion I've seen on forums in years.

Unintended irony.

[Saetos]

Also you mention Nanomage absorb again.

Stop lumping in Nanomage tools with a Trader toolset. We are not all Nanomage - live I'm Opifex, test I'm Solitus - so stop trying to assert that Dread Absorb is such a vital part of how Traders function.